Second-hand gear vs new gear

[Michael Loh]

What is the formula to decide if buying a second-hand gear is better value than buying brand new gear assuming similar price and relatively good condition for the second-hand gear? What is the criteria to make that decision?

 

 

[NonPlayableCharacter]

Only you can answer that. If you are concerned about warranty, then you won't be buying second hand if the warranty is not transferable, for example.

 

Personally, I'd be looking for a sliding scale on second hand price vs retail price of minimum 20% off rrp for anything up to about 4-5 months old, then increasingly more off the older the kit is. You have to go with your gut to some extent. If it is hard to get second hand, its value may be a little better preserved for the seller.

 

In my head, I'm looking at paying 40-50% of RRP at about the 3 year point. I am unlikely to ever pay more than 30-35% of RRP for anything over 5 years old - but that's me. It might not be you.

 

Capabilities improve with new items over time and this has its own effect on older kit's residuals too.

 

EDIT: condition notwithstanding... Older kit that has has little use or is in demonstrably exceptional condition may attract a modest premium. Also manufacturer base quality and reputation will impact how quickly some items depreciate too. For example, assuming same age and condition, would you pay a greater percentage of RRP for a Luxman integrated or for an entry level NAD integrated?

[Guest]

There is no such thing as a standard formula because everyone is different and we change over time and with more experience. 

 

Your value for money can be too much for some and cheap for others.  If you do not like the sound, then its value drops, but you like what you hear, you may be willing to pay more.

 

Some people like new and the assurance of warranty.  Others are willing to experiment with used.  And it can be a relatively cheap way to learn if item can be resold for a small or no loss.

 

You have to work out your own value proposition (your formula), and it can be easier and quicker if you have someone locally to discuss and compare.

[Silver Audiophile]

There are a myriad of unique quality legacy products that are no longer made. When you find that discontinued product you are seeking and were happy to pay retail when new, and finally acquire it at used prices- pure joy!!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[maximus]

It's a difficult question to answer, some gear like Macintosh, Naim, Lumin, PMC, Proac, Bryston seem to hold their value relatively well, where others as  Krell, Ayon, Carey, most class D amps and Italian gear can be had for a song on the used market. 

So brand perception plays a role as well. In my case I have a WTB for a Bryston 4B3 power amp, up to 6k for a more recent edition and 5k for an older one.

This is well above 50% RRP depending on age, but I know the product and I rate it highly, so to me it's a sound buy.

[Michael Loh]

Perhaps some context...
I'm saving for a Legend Audio Kantu Be speakers (~7K) but there were a few times where I saw PMC twenty526 or Focal Utopia Diva second hand that was about the same price. And people kept posting that they were great buys... Hence the question - which is a better deal. I could go to Carlton Audio to do a demo of the Legend but I can't do that for second hand gear.

Edited October 17, 2023 by Michael Loh

[Stump]

I like the %50 of RRP rule for used gear in mint condition.The new buyer pays for the manufactures profit , sales profit and  transport cost plus GST. You  don't pay that twice for used gear...

[sir sanders zingmore]

18 minutes ago, Michael Loh said:

but I can't do that for second hand gear.

If you are serious about potentially buying some speakers second-hand, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask a seller for a listen. 
 

[Addicted to music]

1 hour ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

If you are serious about potentially buying some speakers second-hand, I don’t think it’s unreasonable to ask a seller for a listen. 
 

 

usually i slap on a charge for that service,  and take it off if its sold 

[Andythiing]

Currently appears to be a good time to consider 2nd hand - I have noticed a lot of high quality gear being offered at exceptional prices. 
 

But you have to accept there is a risk - particularly with electronics. I think speakers carry less risk.

 

always good to at least inform

yourself of availability of spare parts and service options before investing a lot of $$ on an item.

 

im personally drawn to second hand as I try my best to not be too selfish with the hobby given our discretionary funds are limited.

just an example I’ve recently lusted after - still way out of tbe budget I’d even hope to aspire to own - but when you compare to the price of the current model 802 which are over $40k retail these seem to make a lot of sense - I am sure the latest version is superior in every way but these would still be an exceptional sounding speaker (if you like the B&W “signature” sound)

 

 
now if you compare the $13k these older model top of the range 802s are being sold for to the current range on offer you are looking at the 805 standmount ($14k without stands) - if my max budget allowed I’m pretty sure I’d grab the 2nd hand in a heart beat 

Edited October 17, 2023 by Andythiing

[POV]

14 hours ago, Michael Loh said:

Perhaps some context...
I'm saving for a Legend Audio Kantu Be speakers (~7K) but there were a few times where I saw PMC twenty526 or Focal Utopia Diva second hand that was about the same price. And people kept posting that they were great buys... Hence the question - which is a better deal. I could go to Carlton Audio to do a demo of the Legend but I can't do that for second hand gear.

 

I wouldn't personally consider buying second hand speakers without seeing and listening to them unless it was from a small number of really trusted people.  

 

BTW I would personally prefer to take the Legends over the PMC or the Focal.  Don't make the mistake of assuming direct link between quality and RRP, particularly when comparing Australian vs Imported.  Legend speakers are fantastic, and deserve far more credit than they get.  It would be difficult to find a more qualified and knowledageble speaker designer and audio engineer anywhere in the world than Dr Crawford.  He also happens to be a total gentleman!

Edited October 18, 2023 by POV

[Pegasus]

I look at it as depending on the type and level of the gear you are looking at.

It's also a way of buying equipment that is way out of reach when new.

I buy mainly second generation audio gear.

The exception is DACS, as there has been great leaps forward in the technology.

There are those who must have (and can afford) the latest high-end audio gear.

I have bought Pass Lab's power and preamplifiers for less than half new price over several years.

In the last year, I have purchased a Plinius preamp and a pair of monoblocks at about half new price.

I also purchased a pair of large floorstander speakers that retailed for $52K for 18K, plus the $1K it took to go and listen to them and transport them back to Brisbane.

[Glenross]

On 18/10/2023 at 3:17 AM, Andythiing said:

Currently appears to be a good time to consider 2nd hand - I have noticed a lot of high quality gear being offered at exceptional prices. 
 

But you have to accept there is a risk - particularly with electronics. I think speakers carry less risk.

 

always good to at least inform

yourself of availability of spare parts and service options before investing a lot of $$ on an item.

 

im personally drawn to second hand as I try my best to not be too selfish with the hobby given our discretionary funds are limited.

just an example I’ve recently lusted after - still way out of tbe budget I’d even hope to aspire to own - but when you compare to the price of the current model 802 which are over $40k retail these seem to make a lot of sense - I am sure the latest version is superior in every way but these would still be an exceptional sounding speaker (if you like the B&W “signature” sound)

 

 
now if you compare the $13k these older model top of the range 802s are being sold for to the current range on offer you are looking at the 805 standmount ($14k without stands) - if my max budget allowed I’m pretty sure I’d grab the 2nd hand in a heart beat 

My speaker journey started Ariston Image, new, for £185, which are still in use in my shed!  My last pair of new speakers were B&W 804S in 2000.  Since then I’ve progressed up the 800 series ladder, always through the second hand market.  Without issue (touch wood) other than by me moving them!  I understand the concerns, and would recommend listening - or buying the model you have already heard locally from an interstate trusted seller, and SN is a wonderful resource for testing that trust.
Thanks for the link Andythiing!  And they are still available and still fantastic. 

[Steever]

Cartridges: always new!

Although I did buy my Ania Pro from a private seller but, it was still sealed in box. 

Everything else: used, because I love a bargain and gear of slightly older vintage. Newer isn’t always better. 
 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Steever

[adam0bmx0]

Electronics like AVRs and projectors generally new unless the price is cheap enough to factor in a repair and still not be too close to RRP! However these bigger purchases are very infrequent.

Hence I bought my JVC NP5 projector new (JVC warranty isn't transferable) and a couple of AVRs new (Yam A6A and an Anthem MRX740)

Most of my speakers and subwoofers were bought used as less risk here I feel.

[thimmy118]

Buying any stuff , new or secondhand, is mainly an emotional decision. Yes we can be objective by implementing formulas to calculate the 'estimated' secondhand price but if it is something you really like, is known for its ability to please most people and presumably yourself (highly subjective) and is a known brand (high demand), I would think you would have already made up your mind to buy after some self justification. This is assuming you have the financial means to buy it of course. Just always remember that if the deal is too good to be true, it most likely is.  

[DarrenP]

On 17/10/2023 at 3:05 PM, El Tel said:

Only you can answer that. If you are concerned about warranty, then you won't be buying second hand if the warranty is not transferable, for example.

 

Personally, I'd be looking for a sliding scale on second hand price vs retail price of minimum 20% off rrp for anything up to about 4-5 months old, then increasingly more off the older the kit is. You have to go with your gut to some extent. If it is hard to get second hand, its value may be a little better preserved for the seller.

 

In my head, I'm looking at paying 40-50% of RRP at about the 3 year point. I am unlikely to ever pay more than 30-35% of RRP for anything over 5 years old - but that's me. It might not be you.

 

Capabilities improve with new items over time and this has its own effect on older kit's residuals too.

 

EDIT: condition notwithstanding... Older kit that has has little use or is in demonstrably exceptional condition may attract a modest premium. Also manufacturer base quality and reputation will impact how quickly some items depreciate too. For example, assuming same age and condition, would you pay a greater percentage of RRP for a Luxman integrated or for an entry level NAD integrated?

I think this is a good base. However many will buy for emotional reasons, especially when it may  bring back memories for them for older gear or professional reviewers all consistently say great things about a particular model and this increases resale

[DarrenP]

Just now, DarrenP said:

I think this is a good base. However many will buy for emotional reasons, especially when it may  bring back memories for them for older gear or professional reviewers all consistently say great things about a particular model and this increases resale

Ps I am guilty of this myself

[bob_m_54]

One thing I personally steer well clear of, when buying secondhand, is if the unit has had work done to it, and you can't verify if the work was done by a reputable and qualified tech. Words like "recapped" "refurbished" "recently serviced" etc are big warning signs to me.

[wasabijim]

I'm a fan of second hand but you need to know your stuff and your own personal risk/value threshold.  

 

second hand vs 3rd, 4th, etc -hand. there will be a bottoming out $$ value  (good if you plan on re-selling after some usage) but of course there is an associated risk. helps if the previous owners are all known or part of of trust worthy group (i.e. SNA regulars - I would like to think...)   

 

sometimes it's a question of time as well. Something has an established worth but shortage of buyers could see the seller having to wait some even if listed at a good price.

 

At the other end, items will go within days, maybe hours. If I'm in the market or just curious I'll monitor the listed price and time to sell to get a sense of value, plus how timely I'd need to be if I'm serious and the item comes up again - nothing worse than finally reaching out to the seller after mulling it over for several days only to be told it sold that morning... 

[Wimbo]

On 17/10/2023 at 4:37 PM, Michael Loh said:

What is the formula to decide if buying a second-hand gear is better value than buying brand new gear assuming similar price and relatively good condition for the second-hand gear? What is the criteria to make that decision?

 

 

The formula is research and knowledge.

[JohnDSLR]

I like the word "Vintage" which is associated with passion, characters and culture.

[doogie44]

Re second hand gear:

 

Like renovating run-down houses, being a handyman would have enormous advantages! In my next life I'm going to be capable of re-capping vintage valve amps and valve tuners, and of repairing any panel speaker. Then I will be able to:

 

1. Afford to buy electronic goodies second-hand cheaply, and

2. Assuage my unrequited lust for:

 

QUAD ESL--especially the 57 and 63 Monitor

DYNA FM3 tuner & McIntosh MR-71

VTL

Marantz/Scott/Leak/McIntosh/Radford amps

Magnepan

 

I have never forgotten the sound of the DYNA FM3 tuner with NOS valves (live broadcast concerts) through the QUAD ESL-63 driven by VTL amps (minimal preamp + 75/75 stereo). But I digress.

 

BTW, I don't have a problem... I can stop anytime I want to. Just not now.

[audiofeline]

I would be wanting to qualify how old the 2ndhand gear is, and what gear you are looking at getting. 

 

A lot of more modern electronics has complex circuit boards which are not designed to be repaired.  If there is a fault, the board is replaced.  Which then means that you are reliant on the manufacturer's stock of parts.  So if an amp is a only few years old and has complex circuit boards, it is likely to be maintainable for quite a few years.  However, if it is 10-15yrs or older,  I would be concerned that there may not be replacement boards available (and if it's being sold with a fault the owner may have discovered that). 

 

Older electronics from "the golden years of hifi" have circuitry that don't have the limitations.  Circuit boards are designed with components that can be replaced and maintained.  You might still have some part problem with particular IC's, but if you do your research on the model you will probably find a red-flag if it exists.  But, to my knowledge, there is a lot of high-quality old equipment that can be brought back to new, or better than new, specs. 

 

Turntables and speakers are more mechanical, so getting 2ndhand really depends on how they have been treated and maintained. 

 

 

[mbz]

On 06/11/2023 at 2:17 PM, audiofeline said:

to my knowledge, there is a lot of high-quality old equipment that can be brought back to new, or better than new, specs. 

+1

 

Edited November 10, 2023 by mbz
Not worth the arguement