Dante for Home Theatre

[Guest]

Dante is widely used in Pro Audio but largely unknown in consumer audio.  However, with its low latency and multi channel capability, it is well suited for home theatre (HT).  This thread was inspired by the introduction of the Dante enabled Kii Seven (and was split from the Kii Audio owners thread).  Hopefully, it will spark your interest in using Dante for Home Theatre.

 

This is one way to set up the Kii Three and Kii Seven for a home theatre (HT) using Dante:

 

 

The Dante enabled AV Processor e.g. JBL Synthesis SDP-55 will feed all the HT channels to a network switch.  The Dante converters require power, so either feed power separately to them, or use a PoE network switch.  Converters allow non Dante products to be used in the network.

 

The Controller software (free from Audinate) will do the routing. Each Dante device has an ID, so you can route L&R signal to AES/EBU Digital Converter, C, SL, SR to Seven's (with in built Dante).   If you use the Audinate Dante D2A converter, it can be plugged into the sub's XLR input.

 

Using Dante for HT simplifies the cabling and potentially reduce noise and electrical interference.  Yes, it would need Ethernet cabling for every output device, but this is standard cabling that any electrician can do.  There is only 1 Ethernet output from the AV Processor (fantastic WAF!) instead of the mess of cables that all of us have!

 

Another example of a Dante HT setup uses the Devialet Phantoms Custom version, probably the simplest configuration.  A sub is not necessary when the Phantoms can go below 20 Hz!

 

There is lots of Dante information on the web.  Here is a sample.

 

Dante is the product name for a combination of software, hardware, and network protocols that delivers uncompressed, multi-channel, low-latency digital audio over a standard Ethernet network (Wikipedia).

Audinate (developed Dante)

Dante Network Audio: What is it? And how can I use it? (video)

Q&A with Audinate on Dante

Dante enabled products (Audinate maintained catalog).

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by Snoopy8
Updated

[pam1975]

this is incredibly useful, thank you @Snoopy8

Two questions: 

1) are there no latency issues between the Kii Three and sub in this configuration? or is the known +/- 90ms latency still an issue to take care of?

 

2) I'm confused why you are saying that the Audinate Dante AVIO AES3/EBU is for analog?

I'm reading the specs and don't see that but I'm new to this so probably missing it.

(this is the one recommended by Kii support so I thought they would recommend the right one)

 

thanks again

 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

1) are there no latency issues between the Kii Three and sub in this configuration? or is the known +/- 90ms latency still an issue to take care of?

The Kii Three can be set to minimal latency (1 to 2 ms?).  As a note, a Dante setup has a latency in the same range, which is essential in a Pro Audio setup with lots of equipment.

 

7 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

2) I'm confused why you are saying that the Audinate Dante AVIO AES3/EBU is for analog?

I'm reading the specs and don't see that but I'm new to this so probably missing it.

(this is the one recommended by Kii support so I thought they would recommend the right one)

Not surprised about being confused.  I do not have any Pro Audio experience and only learned after installing a Dante based Devialet Phantom setup.

 

I have yet to find a Dante enabled sub.   Dante is digital and the sub signal has to be converted to analog for use with the sub.  I suggested the Audinate converter because it conveniently has an XLR cable output.

[pam1975]

 

 

4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

The Kii Three can be set to minimal latency (1 to 2 ms?).  As a note, a Dante setup has a latency in the same range, which is essential in a Pro Audio setup with lots of equipment.

 

what is its max latency, do you know?

[pam1975]

5 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

 

 

I have yet to find a Dante enabled sub.   Dante is digital and the sub signal has to be converted to analog for use with the sub.  I suggested the Audinate converter because it conveniently has an XLR cable output.

sorry, I was not referring to the sub here but to the Kii Three. 
Why do we need an AES/EBU digital converter with them and not simply the Audinate Dante AVIO AES3/EBU as suggest by Kii themselves?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, pam1975 said:

what is its max latency, do you know?

I think @gibbo9000 measured the minimal latency?

 

1 minute ago, pam1975 said:

sorry, I was not referring to the sub here but to the Kii Three. 
Why do we need an AES/EBU digital converter with them and not simply the Audinate Dante AVIO AES3/EBU as suggest by Kii themselves?

I think Kii made the same mistake as I did earlier.  That converter is Dante digital to AES analog!   There are others you can use.

[pam1975]

9 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

I think @gibbo9000 measured the minimal latency?

 

I think Kii made the same mistake as I did earlier.  That converter is Dante digital to AES analog!   There are others you can use.

thank you!

[Guest]

I haven't been following this so just passing on the message. 

 

My only experience with Dante was not so good. Harman have all but abandoned it in domestic products now it seems.

This came from Todd James, the Technical Trainer at Harman when I was having trouble with my SDP-55 Processor:

 

Quote

Personally, I would stick with the XLR outputs on the SDP-55 if you have them. The analog output stage on these products is part of the secret sauce that makes our products sound so good.  They include an digitally controlled resistor matrix for each channel to control volume and this ensures we can run the DSP and DACs at full whack getting maximum dynamic range and it gives us an extra bit of gain. When using DANTE, the digital signal path bypasses all this, so we have to do volume control in the digital domain (in the DSP because it would be impossible to align multiple volume controls across multiple amplifiers in an unspecified system which are likely to have different gain rates) and we lose the little bit of gain the output stages give us. We maximise our sound quality with DANTE by using the same ESS DACs in our Class G power amps. For me, DANTE is a feature that simplifies wiring and it has merit but it does come at the expense of absolute maximum possible performance.

 

I've since settled with analog and it's now a bullet proof setup that is 100% reliable. Stark contrast to when I was running Dante.

[pam1975]

3 minutes ago, Marc said:

I haven't been following this so just passing on the message. 

 

My only experience with Dante was not so good. Harman have all but abandoned it in domestic products now it seems.

This came from Todd James, the Technical Trainer at Harman when I was having trouble with my SDP-55 Processor:

 

 

I've since settled with analog and it's now a bullet proof setup that is 100% reliable. Stark contrast to when I was running Dante.

Pretty much similar to many posts I have read on the topic. I am in no way knowledgeable in this area but let’s say that in a private setup it seems complicated to get it right. Maybe it’s easier for pros because they have the adequate dedicated support…

 

I’ll try it anyways because this is the setup I have really wanted for years now

[Guest]

My understanding that Dante was primarily designed for multi-room studios, broadcast, and massive arenas where long runs and control rooms etc are used. It adds weight to the argument above that "DANTE is a feature that simplifies wiring and it has merit but it does come at the expense of absolute maximum possible performance".

 

Anyway, this is morphing more into a Dante discussion than a Kii Discussion thread type topic I guess. Maybe it needs its own topic.

[Guest]

13 minutes ago, Marc said:

I've since settled with analog and it's now a bullet proof setup that is 100% reliable. Stark contrast to when I was running Dante.

I know of someone successfully running the SDP-55 with Dante and Devialet Phantoms, but he was very tech savvy and added a number of things to get it working. ** He moved from an Anthem AVM60, which required many Dante A2D converters at that end. **

 

You do raise a good point about reliability with Dante in consumer products.  It is not plug and play, and requires knowledge outside of standard HT setups.  So, a word of caution for those going down the Dante route with the Kii.

Edited October 1, 2023 by Snoopy8
Added **

[gibbo9000]

5 hours ago, pam1975 said:

what is its max latency, do you know?

Max latency is in the 80 to 90 ms range - it varies a little between set ups we have measured. 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, gibbo9000 said:

Max latency is in the 80 to 90 ms range - it varies a little between set ups we have measured. 

Sorry, didn't give you context. Max latency when Kii Three set to minimum latency.

[gibbo9000]

32 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Max latency when Kii Three set to minimum latency

That I haven't measured. 

[Guest]

The Dante discussion for HT in the Kii Audio Owners thread has now been split out into this new thread.   I have added a bit more info to my original post.  Hopefully, you will find this thread useful.

[Guest]

I was told that Dante was capped at 24bit/48kHz. This could be a deal breaker for some, potentially?

[Guest]

2 minutes ago, Marc said:

I was told that Dante was capped at 24bit/48kHz. This could be a deal breaker for some, potentially?

24/48 limit partially answered in this Q&A

https://hometheaterhifi.com/editorial/oped/dante-networked-av-distribution-qa-with-audinates-brad-price/

Different manufacturers can choose to support whatever bit rates/depth they wish, as that is a function of their products as well as Dante itself.  As for Dante itself, it supports sample rates between 44.1 kHz and 192 kHz, bit depths of 16, 24, or 32 bits, and channel counts of up 512 x 512 at 48 kHz, 24-bit depth.  HT will not require 512 input and 512 output channels.  So, need to ask vendors of AV processor and speakers.

 

When using HDCP content, audio is restricted to 48 kHz, 24-bit depth. But not using HDCP content sending audio to speakers.

[rand129678]

Dante can support up to 192kHz (AES67 compatible).

Depends on each individual product's support.

 

As an example for the Kii7, need to check with Kii Audio that they will support with Dante input.

 

Dante Virtual Soundcard is limited to 96kHz on macOS & 48kHz on Windows WDM: 

https://dev.audinate.com/GA/dvs/userguide/webhelp/content/audio_format.htm

 

I use RAVENNA at home, which adds to AES67 with higher sample rates.

 

For 2 channel music, I would not recommend anyone go through the complexity of Dante/RAVENNA/AES67 AoIP.

 

But in the case of multichannel like with the AVR Processor mentioned in this thread, in combo with Dirac Live, it would be pretty sweet. @Snoopy8's diagram accurately shows how a Kii multichannel setup would look.

 

I use 8 channels with RAVENNA for a DSP active system (DSP XO and digital room correction with Acourate DSP).

 

I use it with both music and video, where you need low latency for no lip sync.

 

 

[rand129678]

I've seen people say Dante/RAVENNA is hit and miss because they try to make it work in their existing network, which may not follow the networking recommendations.

 

You are best to strictly follow the networking guidelines and it will work reliably.

 

This is from personal experience with my own RAVENNA/AES67 setup and helping others set it up.

 

I got frustrated having issues initially just trying to make it work with my existing network - 'everything else works'. 

 

But surprise surprise when I followed the networking recommendations, all issues disappeared.

 

Edited October 2, 2023 by rand129678

[Guest]

7 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

Dante can support up to 192kHz (AES67 compatible).

Depends on each individual product's support.

We agree !    

 

9 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

 @Snoopy8's diagram accurately shows how a Kii multichannel setup would look.

Thank you for validating it.

 

3 minutes ago, rand129678 said:

But surprise surprise when I followed the networking recommendations, all issues disappeared.

Someone getting into Dante MUST be comfortable with networking.  And am I correct in saying that HT would be  considered a relatively light load on Dante?

[Guest]

All my issues with Dante were purely because I believe I was the first person outside of Harman to actually do a complete Synthesis system with multiple (5) amplifiers. My issues were blindingly obvious and bug upon bug was resolved with each firmware release. Let's not forget my documented issue where Dante went full output of its own accord and took out all my speakers (except for the Everests!), which was of course resolved (and not at my expense). So I didn't get off to a good start with Dante.

 

They made a good point though, the only benefit I was going to get from using Dante was wiring convenience - a single ethernet cable between each device. But once the rack is pushed up against the wall what difference would it make? It also was most certainly limited to 24/48 in their application of Dante. Which as mentioned previously, also bypassed the JBL's secret sauce. 

 

I love the idea of Dante, but I still can't see it taking off in domestic situations, but totally appreciate others who want to experiment with it. Harman must agree, as they abandoned it in their current platform and last I checked, it still had some audible ticking and artefacts that were never resolved.

[rand129678]

1 minute ago, Snoopy8 said:

Someone getting into Dante MUST be comfortable with networking.  And am I correct in saying that HT would be  considered a relatively light load on Dante?

 

If Kii supports PCM192kHz, 8ch x 192kHz should be fine with a proper gigabit network.

 

But it depends on what else is happening on this network. And how proper is this gigabit network.

 

Not really applicable for an AV Processor but one common failure point is people using USB to etherent adapters with Dante/RAVENNA and wondering why they get pops with audio.

 

Many gigabit USB to eth adapters are not even true gigabit.

 

Best is PCI-e ethernet and in the case of RAVENNA, Intel NICs are recommended over RealTek.

 

With RAVENNA they recommend a separate dedicated network to your home network, for optimal performance.

 

It might work on your home network 'as is' but if one get pops and glitches with audio (very annoying),  you can't complain. You need need to then follow the networking recommendations to the letter.

 

Look at the recommended switches. Look at recommended config. And you'll be fine.

 

So from experience, people saying they have issues with Dante - first thing I would look at is their networking setup. Is it following ALL recommendations or not.

[rand129678]

21 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Someone getting into Dante MUST be comfortable with networking.  And am I correct in saying that HT would be  considered a relatively light load on Dante?

 

And just to further expand, I'm not that smart, so you don't need to be a networking wizard.

 

The thing you have to be comfortable with is following all their recommendations. 

 

Which means you may need to buy new switches , ditch USB to ethernet adapters (if using Dante Virtual Soundcard for example) and use Intel NICs instead.

 

In my case Cisco SG350-10P managed switches were on the recommended list. So I bought those.

And they have pre-made RAVENNA config files to upload to these recommended switches, so there's nothing for me to actually know about best settings for this managed switch.

 

I had to stop being stubborn and follow all the recommendations and buy the recommended switches.

 

And everything magically works flawlessly since then.

 

I was once that stubborn person "well everything works fine, why can't this work". I learnt my lesson and seen others too.

 

[rand129678]

24 minutes ago, Marc said:

I love the idea of Dante, but I still can't see it taking off in domestic situations

 

Agreed. I don't think Dante are bothered by that at the moment:

 

 

 

[Guest]

Totally agree. It's a tiny market by comparison. Plus consumers never spend like business/enterprise.