Rob001 Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Hi all New here Need help I got -Marantz SR 6015 AV Dolby Atmos Surround set up with -B&W DM603 S3 -Fronts (150W @8 ohms -down to 3ohms -Sensitive 90db) the rest of the speaker set up are from the same series I find that the Marantz can’t bring out the full potential of my Fronts , i guess due to limitation of power supply ! Sounds bright I was thinking of adding a -2 channel power amp ! To bring more Clarity, Dynamics , and good tight bass Something that would make a deference but not overly expensive in the same time I got permanent disability and listen to a-lot of Music -I like LOUD to forget about my misery Any input appreciated Thx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 What’s your room like? Carpet? Curtains? Tiles? This can make a big impact on the sound and brightness. also have you played with audyssey room eq? That could tame some of the brightness down. A 2ch power amp could help but sometimes you will just get more of the same if still using the 6015 as a pre. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rundllexe Posted August 28 Share Posted August 28 Hey Rob, welcome! +1 to Hi-FI Whipped's post regarding the acoustic properties of your room. I assume you have a subwoofer? If so are your fronts currently configured as 'Large' or 'Small'. If the former than I suggest changing them to Small and then setting an appropriate crossover frequency such that you can offload some of the more demanding frequencies to your subwoofer - this will give your amp a little more headroom to handle everything above the crossover point and hopefully give you a more full and dynamic sound. Looking at the FR graph of the B&W DM603 S3 I think a crossover of around 50hz will probably be a good starting point. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 23 hours ago, Rob001 said: Hi all New here Need help I got -Marantz SR 6015 AV Dolby Atmos Surround set up with -B&W DM603 S3 -Fronts (150W @8 ohms -down to 3ohms -Sensitive 90db) the rest of the speaker set up are from the same series I find that the Marantz can’t bring out the full potential of my Fronts , i guess due to limitation of power supply ! Sounds bright I was thinking of adding a -2 channel power amp ! To bring more Clarity, Dynamics , and good tight bass Something that would make a deference but not overly expensive in the same time I got permanent disability and listen to a-lot of Music -I like LOUD to forget about my misery Any input appreciated Thx The Marantz receiver - and in fact just about any receiver, does not handle low speaker impedances well at all. You will get a much better sound all round with a separate 2 channel amp- the difference will not be subtle. I assume that you are thinking of using the Marantz as a preamp and using the pre-out connectors to inputs on the 2 channel amp? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 23 hours ago, Rob001 said: I find that the Marantz can’t bring out the full potential of my Fronts , i guess due to limitation of power supply ! Sounds bright Agree with the others about your room, which has the biggest influence on the sound. Please provide details. "Bright" suggests room has many hard surfaces? 23 hours ago, Rob001 said: I was thinking of adding a -2 channel power amp ! To bring more Clarity, Dynamics , and good tight bass A 2 channel power amp will unlikely deliver what you want. Clarity and dynamics are influenced by your Marantz. To get tight bass, you need to understand how the room is affecting the bass. Adding a 2nd sub may help, but the subs need to be properly integrated. 23 hours ago, Rob001 said: Something that would make a deference but not overly expensive in the same time What is your budget? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob001 Posted August 29 Author Share Posted August 29 Thank you for all your responses its high ceiling room tiled floor rug lounch 5.2.4 set up i am using Audessy app i have tried all of the -crossovers frequencies range they are set to small 80hz tried 60hz(sounds batter i got 2 subs Picture below i used to use Onkyo AVfrom 2004 -sounded way batter i even had years back Rotel power amp on the Onkyo AV -that was really good I just can’t feel the dynamics and separation ad the Rotels I was thinking of adding -2 chanel power amp To boost the power But pre outs on this AVs not the best ! I emailed 15 retailers they told me to Get Rotel, Marantz power amp -they all stated i “Need more power to get the full potential of the speakers “ Like -Rotel 1582 or 1552 or -bi amp with 1555 and use the fifth for centre others Don’t get Rotel -Get Marantz 7025 similar sound signature -Don’t bi-amp Some sad -bi amp with AV and power amp for batter sound separation But others sad don’t, as you get noise from AV and the list goes on .., !!!! budget $2k but it looks like $2.5k i think that is to much ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rundllexe Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 (edited) Appreciate the photo's - the windows on the right of the photo are probably your immediate concern RE brightness. I notice you have the floor standers in an equilateral triangle setup relative to listening position with quite an aggressive toe in, whilst the triangle is a good approach I think you will be getting some reflections from your TV (in addition to your windows) too due to the toe in and some hot seat effect possibly exacerbating the brightness. Some things to try: - Swap position of the subwoofers with the floor standing speakers; no toe in to start, and increment very minor angling as you test. This will hopefully reduce the direct energy arriving from your tweeters and also give the right hand speaker's lower woofer and bass reflex port more room to breathe so to speak. - Try adding (more) blankets to your furniture, leather like surfaces tend to reflect more than they absorb. - Try adding a thick table runner / cloth to your glass coffee table too (a towel or something will work for purpose of testing). - If you are doing any serious stereo listening that doesn't require the TV, try also hanging a blanket over it too, you might get funny looks from the significant other / family but in my experience it really helps to add clarity to the image (just not the one you see with your eyes ). - If within scope you should also try and get some heavy drapes along the right hand boundary of your room to cover up all that glass. You should find some improvement regarding the brightness with the above but will likely still need more power at the end of the day. Edited August 29 by rundllexe 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted August 29 Share Posted August 29 (edited) 1 hour ago, Rob001 said: budget $2k but it looks like $2.5k Your problem lies with the Marantz receiver that shouldn’t be used with anything less than 8 ohms for best performance. I have lost count of the times I have installed or assisted others in installing power amp upgrades to improve the sound. Room treatments won’t help with the impedance mismatch between the receiver and speakers. AVR ‘s should not be used with speakers less than 8 ohms for best performance while normal stereo amps can handle 4 ohm.Speakers perfectly. with your budget I would recommend buying a 2 channel or 3 channel power amp and use the Marantz as the pre. Your B&W speakers will come alive with that upgrade alone. 3 channel would be better if centre speaker also has a low impedance curve. Amp can also be switched on together with the rest of the system automatically. If you want to get a glimpse of how your system should sound, you might be able to borrow an amp to try and you can experiment with it. Even an integrated 2 channel can be used by connecting pre-out of Marantz to Aux - in on the integrated. Last time I did that for someone with 4 ohm speakers and an AVR I used a very old Denon integrated @ 80 WPC and it blew away the Avr in terms of dynamics and sound quality. Virtually any separate amp will be able to deliver more current to the speakers than a similarly specced AVR Edited August 29 by TP1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 You could really improve things all around with this amp which is within your budget. To go a little bit better you will have to spend $000's more. Since you have had separate amps before, you might have an idea what something like this can do. https://www.selby.com.au/brands/tonewinner/tonewinner-ad-7300pa-7-channel-power-amplifier.html A review https://simplehomecinema.com/2023/01/13/tonewinner-ad-7300pa-7-channel-amplifier-review/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blybo Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 @TP1 I used to have Denon & Onkyo AVR's with Focal speakers that dipped as low as 2.9 ohm. When an Elektra power amp was added the sound signature did not change at all. In my experience sound signature will ONLY change with room treatments or a different pre amp. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DonGreen Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 Hi Rob001 I can relate completely. I have my Matantz SR6015 driving my Krix IW-50s LCR in my music / theatre room, and miss the warmth and richness of my system upstairs with an older Rotel rmb-1075 driving my Euphonix LRs and Vortex C. I'm going to try the RMB-1075 downstairs, or at least a spare RB-956AX bridged to 3 channels, to see if the Krix in-walls appreciate the extra power. I hadn't noticed until ow that they were rated at 6 Ohm, even down to 3.5 Ohm. I'll let you know what difference I hear, tomorrow. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TP1 Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 (edited) 6 hours ago, blybo said: @TP1 I used to have Denon & Onkyo AVR's with Focal speakers that dipped as low as 2.9 ohm. When an Elektra power amp was added the sound signature did not change at all. In my experience sound signature will ONLY change with room treatments or a different pre amp. I have to say my experience is different. The most notable was with an $12k Denon AVC A1 HD which had 150 wpc and THX ultra certified etc driving Dynaudio speakers rated at 6ohms which was supposedly within the amps specs. the centre speaker kept causing the amp to trip the output and I often had to reset it. All told I didn't put up with it for long and first tried Rotel and then NAD master series and the difference was huge. Firstly, Power amps sounded far more dynamic with greater clarity too. When you have better dynamics and clarity on 7 channels it is impossible not to notice. In another scenario the AV system had reconditioned vintage Gale 402 speakers an Marantz AVR. The Gales aren't noted for their efficiency but the AVR drove them but it was obvious when I first listened to them that they were not getting anywhere near their potential. I brought over an old Denon integrated amp that was collecting dust in a shed at home and the speakers blossomed. Even though the AVR was rated at higher watts per channel than the integrated amp, the 2 channel amp drove it with greater ease and precision. AVR's cannot match separate power amps for the amount of current they can supply so that even if they are both rated as say 100 watts per channel, the impedance curve of the speaker can demand hundreds of watts during transients. AVRs cannot meet that demand , the power supplies aren't big enough where as the separate power amps have more power in reserve and will sound more dynamic. I wouldn't recommend an AVR unless people have efficient speakers which an AVR can handle very well. I guess the term "sound signature" can mean different things to different people, but @Rob001 has identified that he wants better clarity, dynamics and bass - things that only a better power amp can bring to his current setup. Apart from the dynamics , clarity and tight bass are also a function of the power amp depending on how well they can control the loudspeakers ( damping factor) . AVR's have a dreadful damping factor around 50 or so where are power amps start at several multiples of that. Bass drivers are used in music and speech as well as movie effects so the more accurate the bass, the more accurate the overall sound should be. Edited August 30 by TP1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
POV Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 On 29/8/2023 at 5:28 PM, TP1 said: Your problem lies with the Marantz receiver that shouldn’t be used with anything less than 8 ohms for best performance. I have lost count of the times I have installed or assisted others in installing power amp upgrades to improve the sound. Room treatments won’t help with the impedance mismatch between the receiver and speakers. Not sure this is the fundamental problem here. The Marantz is reasonably powerful and it’s all crossovered to dual subs at 80 hz, which is above where the speaker will drop into low impedance range. Seems more likely that this is a case of bright sounding speakers in a pretty harsh environment (photos show a lot of exposed glass and harsh surfaces. I agree with Snoop and Blybo, would start with sorting out room acoustics and bring down rt60 first before worrying about adding additional amplifier. @Rob001 I suggest focusing on improving speaker positioning and adding some additional absorption to the room first. Your Mains look really far apart and very toed in, can you try switching position of mains and subs and reduce the toe in a bit (or a lot)? How about all that exposed glass, can you close the blinds? May be worth sourcing a usb mike and taking some measurements with REW and work out what’s happening. Adding an amplifier may improve sound (may not) but I doubt it’s going to resolve your issues with brightness. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBlackDisc Posted August 30 Share Posted August 30 I think it’s your room AND the amp. The amp isn’t powerful enough to drive those speakers, and that room is essentially how you would design one of you wanted a harsh, overly ‘bright’ sound. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob001 Posted October 3 Author Share Posted October 3 Hi guys thank you for all your replies sorry for my late response as i am not of a good health -Originally had the speakers on the inside of the subs As soon as I switched them around to more open wide positioning, it open up the sound and gave batter sound separation. as this speakers are spaced as needing space. i thing the rug and launch coffee table sufficient for dampening of the sound —-the only thing i was thinking is of getting a wider and thicker Rug ! one obvious reason is the high celling over the lower celling in my privious home , seamed more beneficial and the large glass sliding doors, not helping ! I know what this speakers are capable of as from my previous set up with my power amps, the deference was HUGE -So positioning its a big factor , as you guys say as well , even with the subs -Continues Power current supply is limited due to the Av , regardless of what the Av can do is just NOT enough Now in recent days i bought from Ebay -Rotel RB-980BX power amp 120W @8ohm thd 0.3% @2 Chanel driven 120db signal to nose R Wapping 1000 Damping Factor 4 -100,000hz Frequency Range ps.most retailers advised to spend almost $2k on power amp and $400 on cables ludicrous i must say NNOW THE -DYNAMICS AND CLARITY ITS REALLY GOOD at 80% Volume virtually inexistent distortion NOTE-a bit lacking in the lower end ,even as per other reviews (The only thing is I can’t find my old -Chord Silver Interconnects , which i am pretty pissed of about it so at the moment using some other cables that i have ! Now the other thing i did I changed the speaker Cables to -Canari 4S11 $6.99pm (when they say cables make no defrance , that is not correct ) The Canaris are very good @ especially on the lower end that i was chasing -witch balanced nicely with the power amp (NOTE -my 20years old -Neotech speaker Cables has more clear mid and high range ) I have reduced the pin point angle of the speakers as per your advice what do you think so far on what i have done am i on the right track or just waisting more money 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoopy8 Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 Sorry to hear about your health. Suggest not looking at cables for the time being, because there are bigger issues to solve. Instead, focus on reducing the impact of the room. Your room has glass on right side and also a void on the left. Are you able to get curtains or blinds for the glass area? Can you add more soft materials? All this will help reduce the brightness. And do continue experimenting with the positioning. And if you can, try moving the speakers further away from the walls. Try different toe ins. Given you like to listen at high volume, getting your subs right will help. Have you tried placing 1 sub on the side or 1 sub on the back? Have you tried the sub crawl to find the better locations for sub in the room? However, there is only so much you can do in a shared room. The next step is to use room correction software to partially counter the impact of the room and better integrate the subs Are you using Audyssey? Are you prepared to spend money getting a better AVR with better room correction software? Sorry, there are no simple answers like a better cable or a power amp. You have a challenging room. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hopefullguy Posted October 4 Share Posted October 4 hi op, not wanting to be negative in any way but i think you are finding out what a large open room means... problems. first just 1 point from my owning a sr6012.. plenty of power, all this not good enough for those speakers? what a lot of bollocks.. your speakers are 90db, 8ohm, 2x 6.5" woofers with an alluminium dome tweeter, hardly complicated or fancy. i run mine with 8ohm speakers, yes your are only 8 ohm nominal, slightly more sensitive at actual 92db, not their advertised 98db (you can guess what i run) in a 5.1.4 dedicated room (small but) and the marantz is great. only need to run at -25db for gaming and -20db for blurays. plenty of power so thats not the problem. It will run loud enough to make you bleed. your set up is bonkers, sorry, you have the front right speakers "hidden" behind a leather reflective couch, close to a wall of windows made of glass with some flimsy window covers. the center speaker is poorly placed on a glossy finished cabinet. there is no where for any of the speakers to breathe and the subs are just placed where they fit. in a very high open planned room. cant expect much at all with that room environment.. your atmos set up looks wrong , sorry, but its about angles with atmos and yours looks like an Auro3D set up, cant see any 45 degrees from seated ear level. now i apologise if i have been negative and in no way is it personal but thats what i, a very entry level ht person, can see just from the picture. as for bagging the marantz i just stick up for what i use, anyone saying those speakers are hard to power is loony. as for external amps good for you i love rotel gear and only buy 2nd hand stuff not the bollocks prices fools pay for new gear i run 2x rotel rmb1066 ( bridged against advide coz it would be no good, but it is) a rotel rmb1075 ( because i like it) and soon a AMC 3x 150 (because i got it at a fair price). those are used in my larger ht room with denon x4500 and they are great. do i need them? dont care i want them. anyway as some have suggested its the room and speaker placement that need attention. sorry for any negatives but thought i would offer a different opinion, its a forum. try to stay healthy and best of luck with your endeavors. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hi-Fi Whipped Posted October 5 Share Posted October 5 Good luck with your health Rob but like to offer my My 2c. Sounds like you have helped the brightness which is good, but you lack some low end oomph, I reckon thats mostly got to do with the subs now. - I'd change the front speakers back to inside the subs and have the subs closer to the corners (traditionally better bass response from corners) - Snoops suggestion of putting one of the subs at the rear is a good idea if you can do it, should help even out the sub bass. - Move the TV unit to be centred under the TV which will help your right speaker move to the left further and breathe, its front ported so you want that energy entering the room. - I wouldn't even try and critique the sound with the roller blinds open, all that glass is playing havoc with your treble and with the roller blinds down your bass response will also improve. Out of interest what are the rear speakers you have? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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