Onkyo, Pioneer, Integra Differences?

[siegel]

Hey folks,

I've been doing some side by side comparison and it appears the Onkyo, Pioneer and Integra models within the same range below have pretty similar specs and looks wise, not too much different either. How is each brand positioned and any one can advise what is the real difference or differentiator between each brand?

 

a) Onkyo 7100, Pioneer VSX LX305, Integra 3.4
b) Onkyo 6100, Pioneer VSX 935, Integra 2.4
c) Onkyo RZ50, Pioneer VSX LX505

 

I probably don't need c).

 

b) is kind of sufficient for me but a) offers some pathway for upgrades and has Dirac too. Just pondering if it is worth it to pay more for Dirac. I am hoping someone could shed some light on the different branding positioning if I were to go a) or b). Go for the cheapest within the range or pay a bit more for 'quality'? I know they are all under Premium Audio, different warranty period and they are all related brands so to speak...

Edited August 17 by siegel

[Snoopy8]

I understand (not having heard them side by side) that the 3 brands sound sightly different. They share R&D, but the final product is tuned by each brand's own team of engineers.

 

There are differences in physical outputs e.g. some have XLRs. Integra is also aimed at systems integrators.

 

Remember, the room has the most influence on SQ. Dirac Live will significantly reduce the impact of the room, especially so if the room is shared and not treated properly.

[Wimbo]

Integra was Onkyo's "Upmarket" brand. Pioneer as always been it's own company. Maybe that's changed now.

[siegel]

Called up a couple of stores to get some clarity.

 

Both said Integra are more customisable it usually meant for installers though homeowners can also buy them. 

 

Store A said not to bother with Pioneer. Something about iffy warranty support by distributor but I find it odd since all three brands are distributed by PAC. Store A used to sell Pioneer but they've removed it from their listings and only carry Onkyo and Integra. Between these two brands, they suggested I go for Integra as it "sounds better". Bit subjective this and there's no way to verify it but Integra costs more and it's difficult to sink more into a product on claims it "sounds better". These days the manufacturers are tight lipped about the chip they use in their receivers.

 

Store B suggested I drop Integra since they are meant for integrators and choose between Onkyo and Pioneer as they're both pretty much the same. Which to choose? Go with my brand loyalty or pick the cheapest of the two within the range I want they say. Pretty neutral answers which did not really shed much light to what I was after. They did sing the praises of Dirac and even when I threw in Denon 3800 into the mix, they still insist with Onkyo or Pioneer since Dirac comes with as opposed to the Denon 3800, which is an additional cost.

[Snoopy8]

There is still biases among retailers, and users here, based on previous experience with old models. So, you will get varying opinions.

 

Essentially, for equivalent models, they have the same foundations e.g. same multi channel DAC chip on same video processing board. Each brand will tinker with the analog output stages, giving slightly different sound. And each brand will have their input and output board.  Integra adds custom integration board.

 

Suggest you have a listen to each of the brands and see whether you prefer one?

 

And, for me, Dirac Live is mandatory..

[siegel]

Initially I thought just get the Onkyo 6100 and be done with it. That would be roughly $1.3k. Then the more I read about Dirac and watch reviews about it, the more I open up to it and receivers the next step up with Dirac are around $1.8k+. I don't know if I will ever utilise the additional 2 channels from these next step up receivers hence in my mind, I try to rationalize if it is worth it to pay $500 more for Dirac which I probably will use once or twice to set things up and that's it. Then there's this other(dangerous) school of thought which goes -  since you're already going to pay $1.8k for the Dirac receivers, why not just go for RZ50 for $2.1+k. Each jump is a few hundred more but it adds up considering the initial one was just 1.3k. Then there is the not so small matter of what's the difference between the three brands, Onkyo, Pioneer and Integra. You are correct in saying everyone has their opinions, biases, beliefs and preferences - which makes it difficult to get as close to the truth as possible. 

 

So just to provide some context, my system is currently 5.1, fronts are floorstanders and surrounds are satellites(looks like a smaller bookshelf) sitting on stands. Thing is, my speakers are not those type that are designed so you can seamlessly integrate Atmos height speakers at the top. I can certainly buy any brand Atmost speakers and place it on the floorstanders but I doubt the surround satellites can support the additional weight not to mention balance.  Ceiling/wall mount speakers are not an option since my "cinema room" is really my living room which is  part of an open floor plan which shares the kitchen and dining area too hence the idea of only going 5.1.2 instead of a 5.1.4. Hope this explains why I "feel" a 7 channel receiver could be just right for me unless I REALLY want Dirac which means going up to a 9 channel receiver but probably won't be able to utilise all channels.

[Snoopy8]

9 minutes ago, siegel said:

 if it is worth it to pay $500 more for Dirac which I probably will use once or twice to set things up and that's it. 

Yes, you are using it only a few times to set things up BUT you are using it every time you play a movie. And you will hear the difference.

 

12 minutes ago, siegel said:

 Ceiling/wall mount speakers are not an option since my "cinema room" is really my living room which is  part of an open floor plan which shares the kitchen and dining area too hence the idea of only going 5.1.2 instead of a 5.1.4. 

My setup is in a large open plan family room, opening on 1 side to kitchen and dining area.  Hence, no side speakers. Suggest 5.1.4 because having ceiling speakers in front and behind sitting position improves the Atmos experience.

[siegel]

21 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

BUT you are using it every time you play a movie. And you will hear the difference.

I didn't think of it this way....lol

 

22 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Suggest 5.1.4 because having ceiling speakers in front and behind sitting position improves the Atmos experience.

Think I will face massive resistance with the WAF. 

[dlaloum]

On 17/08/2023 at 4:49 PM, Snoopy8 said:

I understand (not having heard them side by side) that the 3 brands sound sightly different. They share R&D, but the final product is tuned by each brand's own team of engineers.

 

There are differences in physical outputs e.g. some have XLRs. Integra is also aimed at systems integrators.

 

Remember, the room has the most influence on SQ. Dirac Live will significantly reduce the impact of the room, especially so if the room is shared and not treated properly.

Most of the circuit boards are shared, so differentiation is mostly on features.

 

Sound wise, they should sound the same.

[Snoopy8]

46 minutes ago, dlaloum said:

Sound wise, they should sound the same.

 

Not, according to distributor in India

 

[siegel]

Hm seems like Pioneer is slightly better compared to Onkyo. At least that's what I interpreted from the conversation. Had to watch it a few times as I could not catch the accent...lol

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

One thing I’m not seeing value in is the $1000 premium for the integra over the Pioneer for most users.

[Snoopy8]

Suggest you do an audition of the Onkyo 7100, Pioneer VSX LX305, Integra 3.4 and decide what you like.  Note that most retailers would not have run Dirac, so your listening would be based on that...

[siegel]

2 hours ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

One thing I’m not seeing value in is the $1000 premium for the integra over the Pioneer for most users.

 

Maybe you're looking at other models? The ones I saw at a retailer Pioneer VSX LX305 ($2399), Onkyo 7100 ($2299), Integra 3.4($2298) soI'm thinking why is there a $100 premium for the Pioneer over the others..

[siegel]

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

Suggest you do an audition of the Onkyo 7100, Pioneer VSX LX305, Integra 3.4 and decide what you like.  Note that most retailers would not have run Dirac, so your listening would be based on that...

 

Easier said than done mate. Over here in Adelaide, choices are limited. I have not come across any retailers carrying any of the three brands I'm considering. All I see are Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, NAD, Arcam etc.

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

6 minutes ago, siegel said:

 

Maybe you're looking at other models? The ones I saw at a retailer Pioneer VSX LX305 ($2399), Onkyo 7100 ($2299), Integra 3.4($2298) soI'm thinking why is there a $100 premium for the Pioneer over the others..

Yeh I was thinking the next level up.

 

In that case I’d go the integra, has multi channel preouts which allows you to add other power amps in the future which could make a big difference to performance 

[Hi-Fi Whipped]

Just now, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Yeh I was thinking the next level up.

 

In that case I’d go the integra, has multi channel preouts which allows you to add other power amps in the future which could make a big difference to performance 

 

9 minutes ago, siegel said:

 

Easier said than done mate. Over here in Adelaide, choices are limited. I have not come across any retailers carrying any of the three brands I'm considering. All I see are Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, NAD, Arcam etc.

If you are set on choosing one of the three you’ve mentioned and can’t audition I’d think the sound signature differences would be negligible, get the one with the most features would be my recommendation 

[siegel]

22 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

Yeh I was thinking the next level up.

 

In that case I’d go the integra, has multi channel preouts which allows you to add other power amps in the future which could make a big difference to performance 

 To be honest, I am unsure if I will need or want preouts. My speakers can't biamp, I won't be running multiple subs and it is likely I won't utilise all the 9 channels, maybe just 7. Of course, the Integra being the cheapest of the lot(by $1 lol) doesn't hurt but I see PAC are running a promo now. If you buy an Onkyo 7100 you get a freebie Klipsch The One II.

 

20 minutes ago, Hi-Fi Whipped said:

get the one with the most features would be my recommendation 

 

All of them are kind of similar specs wise. Onkyo is THX certified, the rest aren't which isn't really a big deal for me but apart from that, they are almost identical specs wise and price wise, with the exception of Pioneer LX305 with a $100 premium but that's negligible. 

 

I've been eyeballing the specs of all three manually and also via this site here:
https://www.zkelectronics.com/vsreceiver/pioneer-vsx-935_australia-and-asia-vs-onkyo-tx-nr6100_australia-and-asia-vs-pioneer-vsx-lx305_australia-and-asia-vs-onkyo-tx-nr7100_australia-and-asia-vs-integra-drx-3.4_australia/

 

One thing interesting....manufacturers do not reveal which DAC chip they put in their receivers but what is visible is the DAC specs reduced from 384khz/32 bit to 192khz/24 bit. Possibly not noticeable to our ears but on paper they've lowered the specs and upped the price. If I were to speculate, since all three models are similarly priced, I might infer they are all using the same DAC chip too though I could be totally off the bat here.

Edited August 19 by siegel

[cwt]

2 hours ago, siegel said:

 To be honest, I am unsure if I will need or want preouts. My speakers can't biamp, I won't be running multiple subs and it is likely I won't utilise all the 9 channels

 

One thing interesting....manufacturers do not reveal which DAC chip they put in their receivers but what is visible is the DAC specs reduced from 384khz/32 bit to 192khz/24 bit. Possibly not noticeable to our ears but on paper they've lowered the specs and upped the price. If I were to speculate, since all three models are similarly priced, I might infer they are all using the same DAC chip too though I could be totally off the bat here.

Maybe by process of elimination heres a few to discard . Any with DLBC as your happy with 1 subout . 2 . Any with xlr 2ch balanced ins as you dont need 2ch analogue inputs 3.look for models with phase locked loop dejitter circuitry like the onk 6100 as these models have gone the extra mile syncing the bit packets of digital ;  [hdmi is not a low jitter interface] showing they care about the engineering at the least..

 

Dont get fixated on the dac whether 24 bit or 38 - its all marketing [wow 38 bit depth must be better -its higher lol] Everything your decoding is maximum 24 bit apart from sacd 1bit dsd..

Ever since the AKM fire ce's have been using other brands like TI[burr brown ]etc so there engineers are happy .

As said these brands have slightly differing sound signature ; ONKYO/INTEGRA are known for high detail very crisp sound ; Marantz more laid back and mellow . 

I would put more emphasis on the level of dsp power than the dac used as the analogue stages after the dac can corrupt the highest s/n ratio dac  more grunt in the SOC means less cost cutting..

a complete set of pre outs means you can keep your avr and give greater choice for harder to drive speakers and more volume/ dynamic range which may help with clipping one day

 

Edited August 19 by cwt

[Snoopy8]

3 hours ago, siegel said:

 

Easier said than done mate. Over here in Adelaide, choices are limited. I have not come across any retailers carrying any of the three brands I'm considering. All I see are Yamaha, Denon, Marantz, NAD, Arcam etc.

Maybe find someone in Adelaide who has one of these.

 

Or wait till Hi-fi show and also visit some of the retailers in Melbourne.

[dlaloum]

On 18/08/2023 at 9:11 PM, Snoopy8 said:

 

Not, according to distributor in India

 

This has been the claim for multiple generations of Onkyo/Integra AVR's...

 

But when you inspect the Service Manuals, the part numbers for replacement boards (HDMI board, DSP Board, Power amp boards...) - they are the exact same part #'s.

 

It is of course possible that things have changed for this new generation - and I have no way of verifying it, as no service manuals are available "in the wild" for inspection!

 

What I will say, is that at the top of the line, the Pioneer LX805 and the Integra DRX 8.4 appear identical, both in terms of specifications and in terms of the internal photos that have been published, whereas the Onkyo RZ70, seems to be a small step down, as it has lower power rating, and different shape/design of heatsinks... however, I would expect it's HDMI/DSP and other circuit boards to be identical (with the exception of the daughterboards that provide XLR outputs/Inputs obviously).

 

This has been the Onkyo approach to differentiating Onkyo from Integra (and more recently Pioneer) for 20 years...

 

I would need more than a distributor or retailers claims (which have been the same claims throughout the last 2 decades... and demonstrably false!) - before I believed it.

 

I have owned both Onkyo and Integra in that time... and the Integra's have for most of that time, had a higher retail price... my conclusion is that they are not substantively different, but the Integra's are higher margin.

 

Of course, the vagaries of the market, do mean that at various times, you may be able to purchase an Integra for less than its equivalent Onkyo model... (as I did 18 months ago)

[dlaloum]

On 19/08/2023 at 2:55 PM, Snoopy8 said:

Maybe find someone in Adelaide who has one of these.

 

Or wait till Hi-fi show and also visit some of the retailers in Melbourne.

At the time I pre-ordered my Integra - they were yet to arrive in country, the retailer I ordered from was in Sydney (I am in Melbourne)...

Delivery was direct from the distributors warehouse - not from the retailer, and happened as soon as the stock hit the country - the price I paid was about 10% less than I would have paid locally.

[dlaloum]

On 19/08/2023 at 2:15 PM, cwt said:

 

As said these brands have slightly differing sound signature ; ONKYO/INTEGRA are known for high detail very crisp sound ; Marantz more laid back and mellow . 

 

 

 

When actually tested, most of the Marantz's (except the flagship models) achieve their "sound signature" using HDAM circuits that add distortion / reduce SINAD.

 

Furthermore, if the intention is to run Dirac or Audyssey, then the sound signature becomes completely irrelevant, as the voicing will be driven by the target curve chosen.

 

So in reality - they are all much of a muchness in "sound profile" terms - choose based on features and relevant rated specifications (ie: make sure you have power amps that match your speakers properly, etc..)

[siegel]

1 hour ago, dlaloum said:

my conclusion is that they are not substantively different, but the Integra's are higher margin.

This kinda makes sense. In general though, the margins for AV gear are astronomical. 10-20% discount off RRP(easily manipulated) is nothing.

 

1 hour ago, dlaloum said:

if the intention is to run Dirac

I've done some reading. Seems like we can either use phone app, mic plugged into the receiver or Umik1 plugged into laptop to run Dirac Live. Which method produces the best results? I just checked the price for Umik1 and it costs well over $200+ which is a tad pricey for me. Are there any guides how to interpret or tweak Dirac results to our liking/preference? I am pretty new to all these and any assistance/guidance is much appreciated

[cwt]

3 hours ago, dlaloum said:

 

When actually tested, most of the Marantz's (except the flagship models) achieve their "sound signature" using HDAM circuits that add distortion / reduce SINAD.

 

Furthermore, if the intention is to run Dirac or Audyssey, then the sound signature becomes completely irrelevant, as the voicing will be driven by the target curve chosen.

Its no coincidence that each iteration/generation of marantz has a new improved HDAM circuitry ; its great marketing , 

Its also well to remember that these avr's are also meant to play analogue 2ch material and many would think it anathema to apply audyssey or dirac to these signals as that manipulates the source the recording engineer intends  you to hear..  bass management and stereo direct switching are for this  a straight wire with gain approach ,,

No surprise some like to add a pre or integrated with h.t bypass to separate emi ; rf from the separate chassis..