Solid State amplification evolution since 90s

[Resonance-2-Rythm]

Hi All,

 

I've been wondering about this for quite sometime. If one has one of the flagship SS power amplifiers  of the mid - late 90s; i.e. Accuphase A50V or Audio Research D400 mk II. As far as I am aware, with the exception of Halcro & Class D design, there has not been any significant changes in the basic design principle of SS amplifiers (transformers, capacitors and transistors) and there is mimimal improvement in semi conductor technology for hifi. So, theoretically, it is hard for one to say that today's SS amplifiers would sound better than those in made in the 90s. However, I do recognise vast improvement in digital source like DAC chips which in turn increases resolution in music playback. So perhaps, hifi manufacturers "tweak" their designs to accommodate for the DACs' advancement rather than improving their overall design due to major development in making toroidal transformers or capacitors for instance. I'm interested in hearing your opinion on this subject and my apology if this has been previously discussed in the forum. If this is the case, admin please move it to that thread. Have a good weekend everyone!.

 

Edited July 29 by Resonance-2-Rythm
spelling

[BLAH BLAH]

...

[muon*]

After hearing Clay's new DAC based on the early Philips TDA1541 chip I have my reservations on what advancements have been made with DAC chips, apart from better numbers. As for SS amplifiers I'm not sure, but it is not unlikely that better ways to implement traditional devices have brought some improvements where this has been done.

 

In saying that, I think many an older great amps from yesteryear stand up pretty well even today, there is a big following of vintage Sansui amps for example, with folks loving not only the warmer ones from the 70's including the very early capacitor coupled output examples, but also the better measuring later ones like the Sansui Alpha series.

[Resonance-2-Rythm]

Transistors came out around 1950, so by 1970 It already had 20 years of development. I totally agreed with you that warm & sweet sounding can be featured in some of the 70s gears - I had a McIntosh MA6200 which has those characters. However, transparency & extension of HF are not on par with my 90s amp . I guess that it may have something to do the  limitation of analogue recording equipment when they made their music at the time. So maybe gears were not made to accommodate those aspects. But digital music playback came out around early 80s so by the mid-late 90s hifi manufacturers would had plenty of time to perfect their design. It’s been 4 decades since then so how many ways can one conjure up to build something better given that building materials have not changed much.  

 

Edited July 30 by Resonance-2-Rythm

[Addicted to music]

Transistors have come along way since the 1950s, however production of SS has advanced to the degree where refinement in production is so much better in a magnitude of ways.  in the 70-80s we still having greater than 70% of failure rate and much of it was tossed.  The technique has improved out of sight with far less wastage.  The purity of silicon is so much better that they are getting to the stage by learning and implementing techniques that makes these 3 legged devices so small that you can fit hundreds of millions on a die.   The implementation of SMDs, reduction of size to the point where serviceability is basically to landfill.  Better production and purity equals reliability and reduction of size also reduces costs.   Think how we have smart phones and tablets compared to the 80s with a Commodore 64, its no brainer that you have taken technology for granted. 

The implemention of SS devices for amplification for typical class A, A/B has not changed until we wanted a more efficient system; hence Class D.   Most typical class A, A/B regardless of what devices used; BJT FET or valves all have the same principle;  to convert a small signal to a larger amplitude with current that can drive a coil(loudspeaker), to do this you'll need a beefy power supply with high voltage rails.  There are audio brands that have taken newer SS production to another level in sound reproduction, hence if you havent heard amplification that have utilised the latest production of SS transistors then do some more research.   

Edited July 30 by Addicted to music

[Yamaha_man]

Still close to the best amps I’ve had in my system and they are from the 90’s. 

[Resonance-2-Rythm]

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

Transistors have come along way since the 1950s, however production of SS has advanced to the degree where refinement in production is so much better in a magnitude of ways.  in the 70-80s we still having greater than 70% of failure rate and much of it was tossed.  The technique has improved out of sight with far less wastage. 

 

My original thread is about the difference between flagship ss of the mid- late 90s comparing to today's amplifiers 

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

 The implementation of SMDs, reduction of size to the point where serviceability is basically to landfill.  Better production and purity equals reliability and reduction of size also reduces costs.   Think how we have smart phones and tablets compared to the 80s with a Commodore 64, its no brainer that you have taken technology for granted. 

 

Semi conductor for smart devices has seen great development in recent years, particularly  with size reduction. But my question is about semi conductors being used for Hifi.

 

1 hour ago, Addicted to music said:

 

The implemention of SS devices for amplification for typical class A, A/B has not changed until we wanted a more efficient system; hence Class D.   Most typical class A, A/B regardless of what devices used; BJT FET or valves all have the same principle;  to convert a small signal to a larger amplitude with current that can drive a coil(loudspeaker), to do this you'll need a beefy power supply with high voltage rails.  There are audio brands that have taken newer SS production to another level in sound reproduction, hence if you havent heard amplification that have utilised the latest production of SS transistors then do some more research.   

 With Class D, there is issue with feedback noise and different manufacturers have different ways to deal (eliminate it) with it so I wouldn't consider that is an advancement. Mid - late 70s lots Japanese made beefy amps with hefty transformers (ie: Sansui BA-5000; Accuphase M-60) that could drive most difficult load speakers (I used 2 BA5000 to drive the Acoustic Research AR9) in the market at the time so I cant see that it is the "under-powering" issue.  

 

Edited July 30 by Resonance-2-Rythm

[Resonance-2-Rythm]

35 minutes ago, Yamaha_man said:

Still close to the best amps I’ve had in my system and they are from the 90’s. 

Thank you for confirming. Krell KAS is a good example of great SS amplifiers that were made in the 90s

[Addicted to music]

On 30/7/2023 at 10:48 PM, Resonance-2-Rythm said:

 

My original thread is about the difference between flagship ss of the mid- late 90s comparing to today's amplifiers 

Semi conductor for smart devices has seen great development in recent years, particularly  with size reduction. But my question is about semi conductors being used for Hifi.

my answer stands and is relevant,  manufacturers who uses current production in SS devices are ahead of previous produced products.   If you look at some of the best designs in the world such as Dan DAgostino, he’s not using TO3 Motorola devices from the 70-80s , he’s using something current….   Sanders Magtech uses the Onsemi that will blow any 70-90s TO3 packaging out of the water not in just specs but there Thermaltrak devices have thermal tracking at the die so the bias  can be controlled.   Also current made devices are purer  in process,  and they have learnt from passed mistakes so they implement different materials for stability and extended life.   I know some have done it,  where they have  70-90 designs and substitute current production SS devices that’s made a difference in SQ.  There are other manufacturers such as Gryphon etc are streaks ahead.   If you havent sampled some of the above mentioned here you haven’t done the research.
And as for SMD making it into the world of HiFi, it’s a matter of time, soon, typical through the hole component will be a thing of the past,  not that I like or want that to happen,  but that’s also flowing through into many volume manufacturing that you can’t ignore,  designers like Dan DAgostino will have no say in the matter as the size reduction becomes the norm.

 

On 30/7/2023 at 10:48 PM, Resonance-2-Rythm said:

 

 

 With Class D, there is issue with feedback noise and different manufacturers have different ways to deal (eliminate it) with it so I wouldn't consider that is an advancement. Mid - late 70s lots Japanese made beefy amps with hefty transformers (ie: Sansui BA-5000; Accuphase M-60) that could drive most difficult load speakers (I used 2 BA5000 to drive the Acoustic Research AR9) in the market at the time so I cant see that it is the "under-powering" issue.  

 

 

I didn’t discussed feedback in class D and it’s not the what I was targeting,  the benefits/advancement of class D is that it’s over 90% efficient and that’s what I was targeting not feedback.   Every amplifier has feedback regardless what the marketing list, if they claim it hasnt its BS!    2ndly there is possible only one class D manufacturer I’d ever consider and that’s Hypex.   Again if you haven’t heard a Hypex Class D then you should not comment,  the Hypex product has made some major grounds in the HiFi scene and can drive some stupid difficult loads without a sweat.

Not every design is for everyone, as discussed in another thread here on a different topic people are bias in what they have experience and become tunnel vision on there discussion, just because you think that 60-90 products are better that’s that’s your bias,  you need to open your mind and look at others or think outside the box.

Edited August 1 by Addicted to music

[BLAH BLAH]

I am no Tech head...but...with all these so called tech advances in S.S. Amp designs...do they sound better than retro!?

[Addicted to music]

16 minutes ago, BLAH BLAH said:

I am no Tech head...but...with all these so called tech advances in S.S. Amp designs...do they sound better than retro!?

to me they are better in any ways,  and I’ve heard Dan DAgostino and Gryphons and class D.   They all have there sound signature,  but what is also different is how they do volume control,  any advancement in this area where contactless points are used has to be better it’s no brainer!   Anything is better than the old prehistoric volume potentiometer!     As for SS devices look at the specs of some of the the old TO3 Motorola devices that’s limited to 3Mhz,  todays Onsemi equivalent is 35Mhz.    Before Peter Stein passed away,  I heard he was going to do an upgrade to the ME850/1600 etc (I stand corrected if I’m wrong on the model numbers ) to current production devices,  not sure if that’s still on the cards but there are members here that will confirmed that and some may even take on the task.

Edited August 1 by Addicted to music

[BLAH BLAH]

21 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

to me they are better in any ways,  and I’ve heard Dan DAgostino and Gryphons and class D.   They all have there sound signature,  but what is also different is how they do volume control,  any advancement in this area where contactless points are used has to be better it’s no brainer!   Anything is better than the old prehistoric volume potentiometer!     As for SS devices look at the specs of some of the the old TO3 Motorola devices that’s limited to 3Mhz,  todays Onsemi equivalent is 35Mhz.    Before Peter Stein passed away,  I heard he was going to do an upgrade to the ME850/1600 etc (I stand corrected if I’m wrong on the model numbers ) to current production devices,  not sure if that’s still on the cards but there are members here that will confirmed that and some may even take on the task.

That's it then...time to throw my retro hi-fi system in the bin.. I canna afford an expensive great sounding system...

[andyr]

11 minutes ago, BLAH BLAH said:

That's it then...time to throw my retro hi-fi system in the bin.. I canna afford an expensive great sounding system...

 

Ummm ... obviously if youse can't afford "an expensive great sounding system" - then you keep your current great sounding system!  

 

 

[muon*]

VFET (SIT) are not new yet sound amazing in modern design, Matt's Absolute Audio amp is just lovely sounding! smooth and natural tonality with muscle.

[BLAH BLAH]

8 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Ummm ... obviously if youse can't afford "an expensive great sounding system" - then you keep your current great sounding system!  

 

 

Ummmm prolly right...what could I be missing out on then...what was I thinking...

[andyr]

3 minutes ago, BLAH BLAH said:

Ummmm prolly right...what could I be missing out on then...what was I thinking...

 

Aah OK!  

 

I suggest that depends on whether your AVR is capable of driving your R & L mains well - IOW are they "easy-to-drive" spkrs (ie. high impedance - 8 ohms) ... or hard to drive (4 ohms - or less!)?

 

If the latter, a good stereo amp will probably give you better sound.

 

[BLAH BLAH]

12 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

Aah OK!  

 

I suggest that depends on whether your AVR is capable of driving your R & L mains well - IOW are they "easy-to-drive" spkrs (ie. high impedance - 8 ohms) ... or hard to drive (4 ohms - or less!)?

 

If the latter, a good stereo amp will probably give you better sound.

 

Sounds like you have nailed it...thank you!

[andyr]

3 minutes ago, BLAH BLAH said:

Sounds like you have nailed it...thank you!

 

As you seem to be in Melbourne, I'm happy to bring over my AKSA 'Soraya' monoblocs for you to try.  100w into 8 ohms ... and (tested to clipping with a signal generator and a 'scope) 180w into 4 ohms.  I used them on the 4 ohm bass panels of my Maggies - but, since selling the Maggies ... they are NLR.

 

[BLAH BLAH]

11 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

As you seem to be in Melbourne, I'm happy to bring over my AKSA 'Soraya' monoblocs for you to try.  100w into 8 ohms ... and (tested to clipping with a signal generator and a 'scope) 180w into 4 ohms.  I used them on the 4 ohm bass panels of my Maggies - but, since selling the Maggies ... they are NLR.

 

Oooohhh reckon those Maggies would have sounded a treat!

[Resonance-2-Rythm]

6 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

my answer stands and is relevant,  manufacturers who uses current production in SS devices are ahead of previous produced products.   If you look at some of the best designs in the world such as Dan DAgostino, he’s not using TO3 Motorola devices from the 70-80s , he’s using something current….   Sanders Magtech uses the Onsemi that will blow any 70-90s TO3 packaging out of the water not in just specs but there Thermaltrak devices have thermal tracking at the die so the bias  can be controlled.   Also current made devices are purer  in process,  and they have learnt from passed mistakes so they implement different materials for stability and extended life.   I know some have done it,  where they have  70-90 designs and substitute current production SS devices that’s made a difference in SQ.  There are other manufacturers such as Gryphon etc are streaks ahead.   If you havent sampled some of the above mentioned here you haven’t done the research.
And as for SMD making it into the world of HiFi, it’s a matter of time, soon, typical through the hole component will be a thing of the past,  not that I like or want that to happen,  but that’s also flowing through into many volume manufacturing that you can’t ignore,  designers like Dan DAgostino will have no say in the matter as the size reduction becomes the norm.

 

I can see that you have dropped a few reputable Hifi manufacturer names but you still have not identified what is the advancement in semi conductors. I owned Gryphon DM100 and Gryphon Bel Canto pre in the past. In fact I only sold the Bel Canto pre a few years ago so I know what they sound like comparing to the latest Gryphon gears.  You stated that Motorola T03 aren't as good as "something current" what is it? as for "stability" and "extended" life my Nakamichi PA7 is very stable and the 32 transistors are still fine. Again, my opening thread says 90s SS amplifiers. 

6 hours ago, Addicted to music said:

 

I didn’t discussed feedback in class D and it’s not the what I was targeting,  the benefits/advancement of class D is that it’s over 90% efficient and that’s what I was targeting not feedback.   Every amplifier has feedback regardless what the marketing list, if they claim it hasnt its BS!    2ndly there is possible only one class D manufacturer I’d ever consider and that’s Hypex.   Again if you haven’t heard a Hypex Class D then you should not comment,  the Hypex product has made some major grounds in the HiFi scene and can drive some stupid difficult loads without a sweat.

Not every design is for everyone, as discussed in another thread here on a different topic people are bias in what they have experience and become tunnel vision on there discussion, just because you think that 60-90 products are better that’s that’s your bias,  you need to open your mind and look at others or think outside the box.

I did explicitly say in my opening thread with the exception Class D.  This thread was never intended to be a challange or debate. Again, you should go back and read my opening thread. I merely asked for constructive opinion - not negative confrontation. But to clarify your assumption about me should not be commenting about class D because I have not heard it before, I have owned many class D amplifiers. The first one I owned was Optoma Nuforce Model 9 (from memory) and I still have in my possession Spectron Muscian III and T+ A power plant which are both PWM design. So I do have some idea about the sound of Class D and yes I have heard March Audio amplifier too. 

 

Anyway, you need to read my thread again. I am not attached to 90s gears so no such bias from my end. I only asked for opinion regarding the progress of SS amplification design, particularly with traddtional class A/AB; the advancement of semi conductors since the 90s (if any) and how they would contribute to better sound reproduction. If you like class D amplifiers or the sound of the recently design SS amplifiers more than older ss amplifiers then that is great. No one is disputing that.     

Edited August 1 by Resonance-2-Rythm