How do you know what you want from your system?

[The Mad Scientist]

I like all sorts of music, primarily a Roon/Roon ARC/local library/Qobuz listener. 2 pairs of Sennheiser HD580 cans, Emotiva GR-1 cans and Sennheiser IE 500 Pro/Moondrop Dawn balanced DAC plus Bluetooth module for mobile listening.

 

I've been to some amazing live gigs and want the goosebumps at home too.

 

I'm a total objectivist where it comes to source equipment. Transparency and lack of colouration is key for me, and I reckon my current rig is endgame.

 

I've bought into a lot of snake-oil over the years and been seriously disappointed, now I'm firmly rooted in the scientific, measurement and blind listening comparison camp.

 

Network is utilitarian - decent, enterprise stuff (2 x 48-port Gbit switches with PoE and 10Gbit fibre) We have a lot of networked devices! No fancy cables, Cat6 U/UTP, OM3 on the fibre, no fibre media converters. RPi4Bs as Roon endpoints (nothing more needed with a competent DAC). Main rig is Benchmark DAC3HGC/HPA4/AHB2 x 2 in bridged mono. Competent, professional cables (Canare Starquad) and Neutrik connectors (XLR & Speakon), no fancy mains cables, fuses, power regenerators or any other snake-oil. My room is fairly well treated with the addition of a light touch of REW DSP correction in Roon and the same correction for TV sound is applied via a miniDSP.

 

I build my own speakers - current models are ZaphAudio ZRT 2-way in a sealed enclosure. Also have a 3-way SEAS drivered, wide-baffle build underway - 10 inch bass, 6 inch midrange and 28 mm soft dome tweeter in a ridiculously over-engineered cabinet with lots of sexy polished stainless steel and carbon fibre.

Edited May 7, 2023 by The Mad Scientist

[The Mad Scientist]

On 05/05/2023 at 7:04 AM, andyr said:

Certainly, better-sounding DACs (than my Topping E30s) are a possibility ...

 

Given the E30's spectacular measurements, I'd do some serious, level-matched, blind listening comparisons before ousting them for more expensive alternatives.....

[andyr]

29 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

Given the E30's spectacular measurements,

 

Correct!  A mate recommended I buy E30s, based on these measurements - and the fact that I needed 3 of them.

 

29 minutes ago, The Mad Scientist said:

I'd do some serious, level-matched, blind listening comparisons before ousting them for more expensive alternatives.....

 

That's your approach - not mine, MS.  

 

Given, as you say, their "spectacular measurements" ... if I change, I will need to find a DAC which gives me more of an eargasm than the E30s.  And - given I need 3 of them - it will have to be something that costs waaay less than even the lowest-cost MBS DAC.  

 

[Richard Tremain]

There is a theme to these posts where unable to achieve suitable Analog sound people have resorted to embracing Digital and a handful of speakers as a way out. Puritisim R.I.P.

[andyr]

1 minute ago, Richard Tremain said:

There is a theme to these posts where unable to achieve suitable Analog sound people have resorted to embracing Digital and a handful of speakers as a way out. Puritisim R.I.P.

 

Possibly, you are unaware of 'FIR' filters - compared to 'IIR' filters - RT?  I say this because even if you have (like most folk) spkrs that employ IIR filters - which have phase anomalies across the XO region (whether they are active or passive) ... you can, for instance (this is just one of several alternatives), use Roon's Convolution capabilities to make the filters linear phase.  The result of this is to make the spkrs more resolving - just like "full-range" spkrs don't have the muddiness which standard (ie. IIR) XOs produce in multi-driver spkrs.

 

In my case - I went digital due to adding subs (which need the mains delayed) to my mains.  But this latest change - to make the crossovers linear-phase - has delivered a further increase to my SQ.

 

So I would say ... puritism is limiting!  

 

[Richard Tremain]

21 hours ago, andyr said:

 

Possibly, you are unaware of 'FIR' filters - compared to 'IIR' filters - RT?  I say this because even if you have (like most folk) spkrs that employ IIR filters - which have phase anomalies across the XO region (whether they are active or passive) ... you can, for instance (this is just one of several alternatives), use Roon's Convolution capabilities to make the filters linear phase.  The result of this is to make the spkrs more resolving - just like "full-range" spkrs don't have the muddiness which standard (ie. IIR) XOs produce in multi-driver spkrs.

 

In my case - I went digital due to adding subs (which need the mains delayed) to my mains.  But this latest change - to make the crossovers linear-phase - has delivered a further increase to my SQ.

 

So I would say ... puritism is limiting!  

 

Sounds awfully good though !  Personally i find adding mains plugs detrimental on a separate Spur i only use 2 one for amplification the other for TT. or CD.

[Assisi]

It is all about the music, the realism and most importantly the aspirational feel good emotions provided by the combined outcome of all my senses primarily my hearing.  Everything I do is intended to fulfill the aspiration.

John

[Richard Tremain]

On 16/05/2023 at 6:29 PM, Assisi said:

It is all about the music, the realism and most importantly the aspirational feel good emotions provided by the combined outcome of all my senses primarily my hearing.  Everything I do is intended to fulfill the aspiration.

John

For people who mess with this stuff like myself i can really only be fully involved if the recording and play back has a STD of Realisim this can be of more importance than the music content it self !

Unfortunately this bar just seems to get higher and higher for the same fix.

[GregWormald]

5 minutes ago, Richard Tremain said:

Unfortunately this bar just seems to get higher and higher for the same fix.

I like better quality wine and food than I used to, and, IMO, appreciate it more.

Same goes for cars.

[muon*]

I know what I like, that's the easy bit.

 

Best sound I have had was with Sansui SR-838/2M Bronze/Boozehound jfet stage with premium parts like Duelund VSF caps, Shinkoh resistors and Mundorf S/G wire.

Still miss that set up.

But still pretty happy these days with a good modern implementation of the TDA1540 running non oversampling, partnered with a matching CDM4 based transport and my own digital and analogue cables..

[Mendes]

9 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

I like better quality wine and food than I used to, and, IMO, appreciate it more.

Same goes for cars.

Indeed, if not now, then when?

 

[Assisi]

2 hours ago, Richard Tremain said:

For people who mess with this stuff like myself i can really only be fully involved if the recording and play back has a STD of Realisim this can be of more importance than the music content it self !

Unfortunately this bar just seems to get higher and higher for the same fix.

To me the music and realism are intrinsically connected.  It will not be possible to achieve system wise the impact of a live performance for many reasons.  The objective at least for me and I expect others though is to get closer to what we imagine real might be.  Many recordings have more realism information in them than I think we actually appreciate.  It is all about the extraction of the intrinsic music realism elements during playback.  Plus, the removal of the system matters that may mask the present low level realism of recording elements.  Mind you crap recordings can sound much worse.

 

 

I am totally digital with my music.  Yet when I have heard serious vinyl elsewhere, I have thought that there has been some small realism that I like that I did not have in my digital.  That is what I thought until recently.  Recent changes have made me think that my playback is now at least equivalent too if not now better than vinyl.  Something special has happened.

 

 

The question is why?  There seems to be an interesting illusion that the playback of the music is now slower.  Off course it is not slower.  The playback is happening in real time.  The beginning of the note is more sharply pronounced and the decay is much longer.  As well, there is more in between the beginning and the end of a note.  Hence the realism.  That is best I can explain until I think more about what has happened.

 

John

Edited May 18, 2023 by Assisi

[Keith_W]

Interesting point about realism. I think that in some aspects, our hi-fi systems are more real than reality. If you go listen to a symphony in a concert hall, it is rare that you get the best seat and the soundstage, tonal balance, and even the relative loudness of instrument groups varies according to where you sit. I once had the misfortune of getting front row seats to the extreme right of a piano concerto, all I could hear all night were the cellists sawing away and I could barely hear the piano. As for amplified concerts, there is no such thing as a real soundstage except for where the sound engineer decided to place the speakers. Their priority is not to please audiophiles, it is to allow the audience to hear the music (which they aren't doing anyway, they are too busy screaming). For these scenarios, the sound that comes out of your home system is vastly superior to reality. 

 

About the only thing left are solo violin / solo singers / piano concerts in which I have never heard any hi-fi system produce a convincing illusion of reality. 

[cazzesman]

IMHO realism is only possible based on the quality of the recording.      Doesn't matter whether is it a 'A' or '
'D'.       Some recordings on my system sound truly speccy.     Other, highly acclaimed Albums, sound just so, so and bordering on unlistenable.    My system hasn't changed so it is all down to the prowess of the recording engineer.   

 

You can't make silk purse out of a sow's ear. 

 

Happy listening.

 

Regards Cazzesman

[stereo coffee]

13 hours ago, cazzesman said:

IMHO realism is only possible based on the quality of the recording.      Doesn't matter whether is it a 'A' or '
'D'.       Some recordings on my system sound truly speccy.     Other, highly acclaimed Albums, sound just so, so and bordering on unlistenable.    My system hasn't changed so it is all down to the prowess of the recording engineer.   

 

You can't make silk purse out of a sow's ear. 

 

Happy listening.

 

Regards Cazzesman

Can you list some of the highly acclaimed albums please. If sources are un listenable the cause is far more than the recording IMO 

 

14 hours ago, Keith_W said:

Interesting point about realism. I think that in some aspects, our hi-fi systems are more real than reality. If you go listen to a symphony in a concert hall, it is rare that you get the best seat and the soundstage, tonal balance, and even the relative loudness of instrument groups varies according to where you sit. I once had the misfortune of getting front row seats to the extreme right of a piano concerto, all I could hear all night were the cellists sawing away and I could barely hear the piano. As for amplified concerts, there is no such thing as a real soundstage except for where the sound engineer decided to place the speakers. Their priority is not to please audiophiles, it is to allow the audience to hear the music (which they aren't doing anyway, they are too busy screaming). For these scenarios, the sound that comes out of your home system is vastly superior to reality. 

 

About the only thing left are solo violin / solo singers / piano concerts in which I have never heard any hi-fi system produce a convincing illusion of reality. 

i would suggest you hear  " At the Blue Note " played by the Keith Jarrett Trio  , and certainly I agree with seating limitations,  but differently that even with ideal seating,  recordings can surpass what you hear at concerts.  This is the ability to capture more fully the musicians efforts along with many contributing factors, mainly all related to efforts being made to be in alignment with the musicians, and to translate the acoustic.   .   

[cazzesman]

Can you list some of the highly acclaimed albums please. If sources are un listenable the cause is far more than the recording IMO

 

Stereo Alas I am not going down this rabbit hole.   I will admit that Unlistenable was probably a tad over stated.   Perhaps the better words were 'Not great production so I rarely listen to them.'

 

The reason I'm not going down the rabbit hole is because of the 'Objective vs Subjective argument.   

 

If I listed an assortment of Albums, I think are poorly recorded, and you have those albums, the various differences between your equipment, room, format, version, your ears etc, etc make the discussion fairly vague.

 

I will however stick by my thoughts, that realism in audio still starts with the source material.     

 

Regards Cazzesman

 

 

[Snoopy8]

I look for the illusion of realism which is moderated and influenced by listening to other people's setups.

 

The reality checks are the Melbourne Recital Centre (MRC) (best sounding venue in Melbourne?) and Melbourne Concert Hall. While I am an occasional classical music listener, I use the piano (Gjeilo: North Country II) as a reference point and also listen for how well an orchestra sounds. Sadly, no setup can produce what MRC delivers.

 

However, I keep going because I enjoy listening to music. Some of my favourites are poorly recorded/ produced. And yes, the room and the various components can affect SQ. However, as long as the system delivers music enjoyment (illusion or otherwise), that is all that counts.   

[Keith_W]

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

The reality checks are the Melbourne Recital Centre (MRC) (best sounding venue in Melbourne?) and Melbourne Concert Hall. While I am an occasional classical music listener, I use the piano (Gjeilo: North Country II) as a reference point and also listen for how well an orchestra sounds. Sadly, no setup can produce what MRC delivers.

 

"Best sounding venue" depends on what music you play in it  

 

Here is something that people either don't realize or they forget - musicians who perform live and unamplified are their own sound engineer. They actually change the way they perform based on the acoustics of where they are performing (the good ones do, anyway). I had an ex who occasionally gave piano concerts and I was dragged along to the practice session so that she could adjust what sounds loud to her and what sounds loud to the audience. For her, clarity and tone was the most important and she would play the notes differently and use less pedal. 

[Assisi]

1 hour ago, Keith_W said:

"Best sounding venue" depends on what music you play in it

A TED talk by David Byrne from Talking Heads  is exactly about the importance of the venue.  That some music is written especially for the venue and even an instrument in the context of for example Bach and the organ.

 

Worth a watch.

https://ed.ted.com/lessons/how-architecture-helped-music-evolve-david-byrne

 

John

[Bisguittin]

A month ago, I was lucky enough to sit down and listen to a $1m system in the suburban backstreets of Tokyo. The sound quality was hugely impressive in so many ways. Shelby Lynne's vocal performance was gloriously rendered and her instrumental accompaniment possessed a tangibility which surely was approaching the pinnacle of domestic audio reproduction? It was therefore with a considerable  degree of trepidation that I returned to my own humble, but carefully curated and synergised system here in Adelaide. To my delight, I felt no sense of inadequacy or "let down" within the musical experience. I write this in no way to "pump up the tyres" of my system, or to denigrate the Tokyo offering, but rather to express the notion that there seemingly are a multitude of magical combinations or "sweet spots" in this hobby, that allow the listener to experience the sheer immersive joy of music, blissfully removed from the worry of falling short of some subjective (or objective) utopian ideal.

 

 

 

[Assisi]

42 minutes ago, Bisguittin said:

A month ago, I was lucky enough to sit down and listen to a $1m system in the suburban backstreets of Tokyo. The sound quality was hugely impressive in so many ways. Shelby Lynne's vocal performance was gloriously rendered and her instrumental accompaniment possessed a tangibility which surely was approaching the pinnacle of domestic audio reproduction? It was therefore with a considerable  degree of trepidation that I returned to my own humble, but carefully curated and synergised system here in Adelaide. To my delight, I felt no sense of inadequacy or "let down" within the musical experience. I write this in no way to "pump up the tyres" of my system, or to denigrate the Tokyo offering, but rather to express the notion that there seemingly are a multitude of magical combinations or "sweet spots" in this hobby, that allow the listener to experience the sheer immersive joy of music, blissfully removed from the worry of falling short of some subjective (or objective) utopian ideal.

 

 

 

 

I think that many of us experience  the conundrum of listening to a system that is not our own and thinking that it is better than or as good as our own.  Then we listen to our own system and decide that our own is better or as good as to what was heard previously elsewhere.  I no longer try to make the comparison as it gets in the way of the actual listening experience in the moment.  

 

Mind you I spend considerable time trying to work out whether a system change that I make in my own system is or is not a benefit?  It can be very confusing.

 

John

[Richard Tremain]

On 18/05/2023 at 9:54 PM, Keith_W said:

Interesting point about realism. I think that in some aspects, our hi-fi systems are more real than reality. If you go listen to a symphony in a concert hall, it is rare that you get the best seat and the soundstage, tonal balance, and even the relative loudness of instrument groups varies according to where you sit. I once had the misfortune of getting front row seats to the extreme right of a piano concerto, all I could hear all night were the cellists sawing away and I could barely hear the piano. As for amplified concerts, there is no such thing as a real soundstage except for where the sound engineer decided to place the speakers. Their priority is not to please audiophiles, it is to allow the audience to hear the music (which they aren't doing anyway, they are too busy screaming). For these scenarios, the sound that comes out of your home system is vastly superior to reality. 

 

About the only thing left are solo violin / solo singers / piano concerts in which I have never heard any hi-fi system produce a convincing illusion of reality. 

Expecting realisim from classical recordings is a very high bar indeed and renders smaller systems to the way side. My self i tend to Folk and Solo singers to gauge reality i do not see how you can reference anything without full examination of the mid band and that requires vocals.

[BLAH BLAH]

23 hours ago, Assisi said:

 

I think that many of us experience  the conundrum of listening to a system that is not our own and thinking that it is better than or as good as our own.  Then we listen to our own system and decide that our own is better or as good as to what was heard previously elsewhere.  I no longer try to make the comparison as it gets in the way of the actual listening experience in the moment.  

 

Mind you I spend considerable time trying to work out whether a system change that I make in my own system is or is not a benefit?  It can be very confusing.

 

John

Talking publicly and freely about listening to our hi-fi systems to each another is akin to asking friends/relatives/strangers/family/colleagues/workmates as to how they are feeling in general...you can bet one of the cohort will take up this simplest of inquiries and somehow manage to turn it into a challenge..of feeling better and/or worse-er than your own good self...or of topping your ailment with one even better..(how did that just happen?! )...and then the droning begins with the various cataloguing of how their ailment is one-of-a-kind...co$tly...involving the best minds and experts in the (medical)business...and requiring various upgrades in care/attention...it is never settled and/or fixed...oh for just hearing the music...Whoa listen to the music Whoa listen to the music Whoa listen to the music...Don't you feel it growing, day by day People getting ready for the news Some are happy, some are sad Oh, we got to let the music play What the people need Is a way to make 'em smile...

[MattyW]

On 18/5/2023 at 9:32 PM, Assisi said:

To me the music and realism are intrinsically connected.  It will not be possible to achieve system wise the impact of a live performance for many reasons.  The objective at least for me and I expect others though is to get closer to what we imagine real might be.  Many recordings have more realism information in them than I think we actually appreciate.  It is all about the extraction of the intrinsic music realism elements during playback.  Plus, the removal of the system matters that may mask the present low level realism of recording elements.  Mind you crap recordings can sound much worse.

 

 

I am totally digital with my music.  Yet when I have heard serious vinyl elsewhere, I have thought that there has been some small realism that I like that I did not have in my digital.  That is what I thought until recently.  Recent changes have made me think that my playback is now at least equivalent too if not now better than vinyl.  Something special has happened.

 

 

The question is why?  There seems to be an interesting illusion that the playback of the music is now slower.  Off course it is not slower.  The playback is happening in real time.  The beginning of the note is more sharply pronounced and the decay is much longer.  As well, there is more in between the beginning and the end of a note.  Hence the realism.  That is best I can explain until I think more about what has happened.

 

John

Mmmm, and everything sounds less cluttered yet there’s a better sense of speed due to the rhythm set by guitar, drum etc. one track fast and high octane electronic, another slow and soothing, another with more variation…. A real ebb and flow to energy levels in each recording.
 

I’ve definitely surpassed what I was able to achieve with vinyl back in the day though given the overall system has improved, I suspect that would sound better than it did then also?
 

Problem was that either my analog or digital chain would sound better than the other prompting more experimentation and search for improvement. Now it’s all digital I don’t have that problem

[Grizaudio]

How do you know what you want from your system?

For me its simple. I want to have fun, learn and discover new music. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited May 21, 2023 by Grizaudio