Catalyst's "Heart of the Matter" re Cholesterol

[robin-hobart]

This program should (IMO) be viewed by anyone with heart disease.:-

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/heartofthematter/

Part 2 next week.

 

In 2009 I had an angioplasty procedure - one stent being placed into a coronary artery. Followed up by a rehab program emphasising the evils of cholesterol in the diet.

At the time, I did as much Googling as I could handle and to my surprise discovered quite a few doctors who utterly disagreed with the Cholesterol-as-cause theory. One of these was Dr Malcolm Kendrick - interested persons can find his stuff on-line.

And now Catalyst has a report also questioning this decades-long hypothesis which sprang from, essentially, Ancel Keys' cherry-picked data back in the 1950's.

 

(This sort of thing always reminds me of the Woody Allen movie 'Sleeper'. In which Woody's character awakes from a long period of suspended animation and finds the people of the future are all smoking. When he chastises them for health reasons, they reply that oh yes;  in the olden days everyone used to think cigarettes were bad for you but later they discovered they were actually quite beneficial.

Unlikely of course but the point is made that we don't always know as much as we think.)

[Super Mustud]

We watched it. Very interesting. In fact extremely interesting. I guess medical opinion will sort it out one way or another in the fullness of time.

 

We can but watch and do as best we can with our MD's recommendations.

[proftournesol]

Dietary cholesterol has little influence on serum cholesterol in most people. Mono-sturated fats are the big problem, as is lack of exercise

[robin-hobart]

We watched it. Very interesting. In fact extremely interesting. I guess medical opinion will sort it out one way or another in the fullness of time.

 

We can but watch and do as best we can with our MD's recommendations.

Of course you must follow your GP's recommendations.

Interestingly, Kendrick and others agree that for heart patients, statins (the largest money-spinner the Pharma industry has ever come up with) seem to be the silver bullet in that they greatly reduce the usual progression to ongoing / full-blown heart attacks.

But Kendrick believes they do this by somehow reducing inflammation of the arterial wall (endothelium?) - rather than their known cholesterol-reducing activity. In other words, it is one of their side-effects doing the business.

Has worked for me so far

But I am constantly surprised at how narrow-minded /blinkered / hostile many scientists (including medicos) can be to alternative hypotheses which don't fit their personal paradigm.

The cause of stomach ulcers being the classic example - bacteria can't live in the hostile acidic environment of the gut (supposedly) - then Marshall and Warren discovered Heliobacter and won a Nobel Prize for Medicine.

Edited October 25, 2013 by robin-hobart

[mikey d]

Nobody is gunna talk me into eating margerine when butter tastes so good. Seriously, stress & simple carbohydrates, and consequentially elevated insulin levels, do a lot more damage than unsaturated fatty acids. Just drink water, not coke.

 

But there is big bikkies in anti cholesterol medications, so it may take some time before common wisdom changes.

Edited October 25, 2013 by mikey d

[hybridfiat]

When I was doing my post-grad in critical care I did a presentation on intra lumen ultrasound and the results in relation to atherosclerotic deposits. Anyhow to cut a long story short the studies on high dose statin use conducted up to that point tested with this technique proved that intra-epithelial deposits of cholesterol were halted and in many cases reduced.

So even though there is a distinct possibility that cholesterol is not the villain it is still the deciding factor in vessel wall obstruction.

Discounting the role of cholesterol is kinda like saying "well the bullet that blew your arm off wernt the problem son, it were the guy with the rifle".

8 years ago there was speculation that turbulence at the bifucations of arteries was a leading cause of the inflammatory process that sucked free LDL into the endothelium creating lipid filled plaques that reduce luminal narrowing and burst leading to acute coronaries.

Edited October 25, 2013 by hybridfiat

[Briz Vegas]

For me that program said one thing - stress bunny equals high risk. It was good as it reinforced that fact.

I try to avoid sugar and my cholesterol was fine, although I've gone full fat in the milk and butter department since then, I am now within my healthy weight range, I actually like to do a dedicated walk for 3 or 4km most days ( not so good on running etc), my diet could be better as I cut corners. I already know that stress is my weakest link. That's why I liked the program after Catlyst. The advert guy learning emotional intelligence and how to escape from chains in the pool.

Edited October 25, 2013 by Briz Vegas

[robin-hobart]

 

So even though there is a distinct possibility that cholesterol is not the villain it is still the deciding factor in vessel wall obstruction.

Discounting the role of cholesterol is kinda like saying "well the bullet that blew your arm off wernt the problem son, it were the guy with the rifle".

8 years ago there was speculation that turbulence at the bifucations of arteries was a leading cause of the inflammatory process that sucked free LDL into the endothelium creating lipid filled plaques that reduce luminal narrowing and burst leading to acute coronaries.

Yes; Cholesterol is certainly present and statins seem definitely to be beneficial.

I am not a medico but my gleaning from the Catalyst doco was that the cholesteral was there in response to arterial wall damage / inflammation which had already occurred.

One interviewee gave the analogy of a fire attracting fireman.

One other treatment I looked at back then - which some consider to be quackery - was Chelation.  An interesting subject in its own right.

[Super Mustud]

For me that program said one thing - stress bunny equals high risk. It was good as it reinforced that fact.

I try to avoid sugar and my cholesterol was fine, although I've gone full fat in the milk and butter department since then, I am now within my healthy weight range, I actually like to do a dedicated walk for 3 or 4km most days ( not so good on running etc), my diet could be better as I cut corners. I already know that stress is my weakest link. That's why I liked the program after Catlyst. The advert guy learning emotional intelligence and how to escape from chains in the pool.

 

Yes, stress was highlighted.

 

That is another good reason to do regular gardening - it helps put everything else into perspective.

[robin-hobart]

Yes, stress seems to be a common factor.

Unfortunately, I detest gardening....

I gather there is evidence that when natives of low heart-disease regions (eg Japanese) emigrate to other countries, their heart disease rates often increase even though they preserve their traditional diet, etc.

One theory for this is that 'social isolation' is an important factor - ie the stress of uprooting and moving to an unfamiliar culture.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Yay! The Beeblebrox family returns to butter.

[Catostylus]

You will only tear my Allowrie Euro style cultured unsalted butter out of my cold dead tentacle.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

You will only tear my Allowrie Euro style cultured unsalted butter out of my cold dead tentacle.

I finally persuaded SWMBO to try Western Star. Surprisingly, we both feel it tastes better. A little expensive, but worth it.

[robin-hobart]

 

But I am constantly surprised at how narrow-minded /blinkered / hostile many scientists (including medicos) can be to alternative hypotheses which don't fit their personal paradigm.

 

 

No.  we mustn't under any circumstances allow dissent.......

http://www.abc.net.au/news/2013-10-28/professor-says-abc-catalyst-episode-could-result-in-deaths/5050866

[A J]

Unsalted or regular butter is the norm in chez AJ - if anyone saw how margarine was made I think they would understand.

We believe in keeping it simple, natural - avoid processed foods, salt and sugar. No rocket science there

[Jake]

Yay! The Beeblebrox family returns to butter.

We never left. Margarine is the work of the devil.

[Guest Peter the Greek]

avoid  salt

 

Salt isn't necessarily the devil its made out to be....although the levels used in a lot of processed foods is an issue

[Catostylus]

Salt is an essential mineral. If you are eating a reasonable amount of green vegetables you're getting enough.

 

Go easy on the celery.

[Super Mustud]

Salt is an essential mineral. If you are eating a reasonable amount of green vegetables you're getting enough.

Go easy on the celery.

My favourite green.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

My favourite green.

 

Mine are lamb chops.

[davewantsmoore]

This program should (IMO) be viewed by anyone with heart disease.:-

http://www.abc.net.au/catalyst/heartofthematter/

Part 2 next week.

 

In 2009 I had an angioplasty procedure - one stent being placed into a coronary artery. Followed up by a rehab program emphasising the evils of cholesterol in the diet.

At the time, I did as much Googling as I could handle and to my surprise discovered quite a few doctors who utterly disagreed with the Cholesterol-as-cause theory. One of these was Dr Malcolm Kendrick - interested persons can find his stuff on-line.

And now Catalyst has a report also questioning this decades-long hypothesis which sprang from, essentially, Ancel Keys' cherry-picked data back in the 1950's.

 

(This sort of thing always reminds me of the Woody Allen movie 'Sleeper'. In which Woody's character awakes from a long period of suspended animation and finds the people of the future are all smoking. When he chastises them for health reasons, they reply that oh yes;  in the olden days everyone used to think cigarettes were bad for you but later they discovered they were actually quite beneficial.

Unlikely of course but the point is made that we don't always know as much as we think.)

 

Robin.   My heart specialist in Hobart is Warwick Bishop.  (I am a shoe-in for heart disease) ....    He is a big proponent of   "we don't understand cholesterol very well" ... rather than "it is NOT the cause, full-stop".

 

He is more focussed on sugar/insulin, etc.... and think cholesterol on it's own is a poor marker.     He put me on a low(er) carb diet, which due to higher consumption of fat / protein made my overall number go from 5.6 to 7.1 (ratios stayed the same) .... and he was very relaxed about this.

 

 

 

Now to see if I can watch the episode online....

[davewantsmoore]

Of course you must follow your GP's recommendations.

Interestingly, Kendrick and others agree that for heart patients, statins (the largest money-spinner the Pharma industry has ever come up with) seem to be the silver bullet in that they greatly reduce the usual progression to ongoing / full-blown heart attacks.

But Kendrick believes they do this by somehow reducing inflammation of the arterial wall (endothelium?) - rather than their known cholesterol-reducing activity. In other words, it is one of their side-effects doing the business.

 

Ahh, I should have read on before flapping my tongue.

 

This is exactly what my guy was saying.    The benefits of statins is not from directly lowering cholesterol, but from a side effect of it.

[robin-hobart]

(I am a shoe-in for heart disease) ....    

 

Why is that Dave? Youngster like yourself?

Is the frustration / satisfaction of building active speakers a stress contributor?

Common predictors for heart disease are:- smoking, high blood pressure, diabetes, family history.

None of which I had by the way, although my triglycerides have always been a tad elevated..

In Feb 2009, I did a 5-hour walk to Cape Huay from Fortescue Bay - 'twas hot and hilly. No problems.  Six weeks later, I found myself being invaded via the femoral artery.

One never knows what lies in store....

[Super Mustud]

Comment on the programme on ABC telly news at 7.00, including reports that there are calls to stop part 2 being screened on Thursday.

 

Cannot see how we can make any form of sensible judgement on the claims and counter claims. In the meantime I will trust my MD.

[Al Leece]

There were lots of thoughts I had about that programme. One is that when I was studying biochem many moons ago, the theory of polyunsaturated fats reducing the body's saturated fats and thereby reducing coronary risk was very much theory based on the fact that polyunsaturated fats were bendy molecules and therefore liquid at temperatures that saturated fats were solid. No evidence had been shown that fat levels within living cells were noticeably different (or even differentiatable). Theory based on stereo-chemistry and given undue prominence by marketing men from large food corporations gave us the hydrogenated spreads that seems, it now appears, to attract free radicals in the body like there is no tomorrow (double bonds everywhere wanting to get oxidised) and free radicals are biological hot potatoes.

 

Another thought: a friend of ours has what doctors call chronically high cholesterol. She has had it all her life and been on low fat diets for years, avoiding all deep fried stuff (it doesn't agree with her anyway) and trying to keep her cholesterol levels within spec according to the GP. No matter what they tried in dietary terms, the levels may drop for a short while but go right back up again. The body re-adjusts; if it doesn't acquire enough X it will make it (if it can). She is now on the meds, for which the reps and pharm firms are, no doubt, grateful.

 

My better half and I have been working on lowering sugar intake lately and replacing what we do use as sugar with brown rice malt syrup and similar. Different sugars are processed by the body differently; most sugars available are, needless to say, not the better ones - the simple sugars that spike insulin. So before we buy things in jars and cans and packets we check for less than 3% sugars (that is the advice from the kicking the sugar habit books). There is not much processed food in our trolley these days; there never used to be and there is even less now.

 

As someone earlier mentioned, the salt levels in processed food are ridiculously high, designed to make things so tasty that you have to go back to that product again. In the same way that drugs work, oddly enough... They even pull this in certain brands of cat food - CAT FOOD! - so that the cats will refuse other brands. The same stupidly high levels of sugar occur in processed food, not too well advertised (not at all if food companies could get away with it) and has the same effect as salt in the blood stream - increasing pressure. Worse, it causes insulin resistance and possibly diabetes. A major cause of health problems comes from the food put on supermarket shelves and peddled as good and safe to eat and, quite often (see various cholesterol reducing breakfast cereals and the like) good for you. They are full of simple sugars.

 

Upshot is, unless you are prepared to cook for yourself it is very difficult to control the amount of crap you put into your body. You can do the obvious things like not drink coke all day (I know a fair few of those people) but the less obvious things will get you anyway. Time is always a factor so processed foods always appear attractive to busy people, but the sheer volume of advertising for the food industry's products versus that of healthy options is a sharp warning to my mind that not everything we get sold is good. Even if it claims to be.

 

Still, as long as we all keep the money flowing, it doesn't matter if people kill themselves, does it? There'll be the next generation to peddle to...

 

As to whether our personal sugar reduction is working, the evidence is still being collected. We both feel better - possibly subjective, possibly not; weight is dropping a little, but it is too early to tell really.

 

2c