Do I buy an upscale turntable

[Mglik]

I recently heard an amazing $50K Wave Kinetics NVS TT at a friends. I was floored. Never heard such sound before.

it was amazing. Got me thinking about buying a legendary Commonwealth TT. Found a nice one in a slate plinth for $8500. And a much more rebuilt one for $15K. These are widely said to be among the best. I currently have a very nice Woodsong Garrard 301 with Tri-Planar arm and Grado Epoch 3 cart. The big question is whether or not I will get a lot better SQ?

[Yamaha_man]

I found the better my vinyl rig got the better the sound period. Depends how revealing the rest of your system is I guess. BTW, there’s a nice VPI-HRX in the classifieds.

[andyr]

1 hour ago, Mglik said:

I recently heard an amazing $50K Wave Kinetics NVS TT at a friends. I was floored. Never heard such sound before.

it was amazing. Got me thinking about buying a legendary Commonwealth TT. Found a nice one in a slate plinth for $8500. And a much more rebuilt one for $15K. These are widely said to be among the best. I currently have a very nice Woodsong Garrard 301 with Tri-Planar arm and Grado Epoch 3 cart. The big question is whether or not I will get a lot better SQ?

 

That's a pretty special cart you have there, Mike.    Does your phono stage do it justice? 

 

(For instance, I see it:

• outputs 1mV - so probably needs a 52-55dB gain phono stage
• yet recommended load is 10k - 47k.

Which is a difficult combination to find.   )

 

As to whether the Commonwealths you found will give you a better sound than your Woodsong/Garrard 301 ... I suggest that's a gamble.

 

But what would, I suggest would sound better would be either:

*  this top-shelf LP12

 

www.stereonet.com/forums/topic/571725-high-spec-linn-lp12-turntable/

 

*  or a Continuum Caliburn, made by Mark Doehmann at Nirvana Sound - a sponsor here:

 

www.stereonet.com/forums/forum/332-nirvana-sound/

 

Regards,

Andy

 

 

[marcusD]

Commonwealth when properly sorted are a big step up from Garrard.

[colinm1]

why not ! 

you only live twice

[cafe67]

Yes

[cafe latte]

5 hours ago, Mglik said:

I recently heard an amazing $50K Wave Kinetics NVS TT at a friends. I was floored. Never heard such sound before.

it was amazing. Got me thinking about buying a legendary Commonwealth TT. Found a nice one in a slate plinth for $8500. And a much more rebuilt one for $15K. These are widely said to be among the best. I currently have a very nice Woodsong Garrard 301 with Tri-Planar arm and Grado Epoch 3 cart. The big question is whether or not I will get a lot better SQ?

The Commonwealth is an amazing turntable when sorted properly. The motor halves need splitting and the bearings cleaned and relubed. The idler needs rubber lathing and general maintenence of switches etc. When done they are super silent rumble wise and they have a pace and slam few turntables can match. I have two, one in a 45kg plinth and the other in bits waiting for my attention. The chassis is painted I just need to get round to putting her back together and sorting a plinth

Chris

[SONDEKNZ]

I guess you are never going to know, until you have your GARRARD and the CW side by side in the same system - with the same cart. 
 

This means checking that your favourite cart can match both arms. Probably worth checking, otherwise you may be forced to compare with different carts - and never really get to the bottom of it. 
 

I guess that means buy the CW and see. 

 

A gamble, for sure - the merit of which will probably be determined by how happy you are with your current GARRARD setup. 
 

Assuming that you will like one deck better than the other, are both decks tidy enough to sell quickly?

[SONDEKNZ]

Forgot to mention, IMHO the phono stage is more important than the cart - in the analogue hierarchy. 
 

If you are not currently that happy with your GARRARD, that is the place to start. 

[andyr]

16 minutes ago, SONDEKNZ said:

Forgot to mention, IMHO the phono stage is more important than the cart - in the analogue hierarchy. 
 

If you are not currently that happy with your GARRARD, that is the place to start. 

 

Well, sort of +1, Tony.  

 

(As I mentioned in my previous post.  If his phono stage is not able to optimise the sound delivered by his special Grado cart ... changing TTs might not improve much.)

 

[marcusD]

My commonwealth is in a 47kg plinth, @cafe lattelathed my idler wheel and Barry Arnstein fettled the rest of the deck, I own a lot of great turntables but they all pale in comparison to the 12d3.

I am running a fr64s and bokrand 12 inch, they both sound great

[Peter_F]

9 hours ago, Mglik said:

I recently heard an amazing $50K Wave Kinetics NVS TT at a friends. I was floored.

The TT is not the whole system. Perhaps your friend can demo the Kinetics in your system for a comparison, and/or put your TT in his system for comparison? Its important to have perspective and manage expectations in this hobby.  Also, the Kinetics and CW will have a vastly different sound signature so not sure what 'sound' you're chasing, do you?

[SONDEKNZ]

2 hours ago, andyr said:

(As I mentioned in my previous post.  If his phono stage is not able to optimise the sound delivered by his special Grado cart ... changing TTs might not improve much.)

 

True, Andy. 100% concur with this.

[Mglik]

Hey, thanks for all the useful comments!

I am looking at 2 Commonwealths. One is just a cleaned up stock unit in a nice slate plinth which will be about $9K US. The other is an elaborate rebuild in a special polymer plinth for $15K.

Think the polymer plinth is far beyond the slate and the rebuild is far above the servicing of the former. Or, for a lot less cash, should I just go for the stock unit??

Any opinions about slate vs polymer? Any about deep service vs moderate?

About the phono stage, I am considering getting a Zesto Andros Deluxe. I heard a Zesto Andros years ago at the Rocky Mointain Audio Fest and it amazed me. In a modest system, it was the best sound at the show. Love the Zesto house sound.

My Atma-Sphere MP-1 pre wt phono is a great phono playback system and it was $28K US. But I do love the Zesto sound.

[andyr]

2 hours ago, Mglik said:

About the phono stage, I am considering getting a Zesto Andros Deluxe.

 

This is MM and MC.  MM gain, according to the specs I found ... is 50dB:

 

 

So, whilst yes, you have 47k loading available for your Grado Epoch 3 (which gives you the ability to decrease the loading to whatever makes your Epoch 3 sound its best) ... 50 dB gain might be a bit low.    But 'doable', I suggest. 

 

[cafe latte]

3 hours ago, Mglik said:

Hey, thanks for all the useful comments!

I am looking at 2 Commonwealths. One is just a cleaned up stock unit in a nice slate plinth which will be about $9K US. The other is an elaborate rebuild in a special polymer plinth for $15K.

Think the polymer plinth is far beyond the slate and the rebuild is far above the servicing of the former. Or, for a lot less cash, should I just go for the stock unit??

Any opinions about slate vs polymer? Any about deep service vs moderate?

About the phono stage, I am considering getting a Zesto Andros Deluxe. I heard a Zesto Andros years ago at the Rocky Mointain Audio Fest and it amazed me. In a modest system, it was the best sound at the show. Love the Zesto house sound.

My Atma-Sphere MP-1 pre wt phono is a great phono playback system and it was $28K US. But I do love the Zesto sound.

Have you seen my thread over at Vinyl Engine re Commonwealth?

Chris

[Mglik]

Chris,

No I have not seen your post at Vinyl Engine.

Can you send a link?

Thanks

Mike

[marcusD]

19 minutes ago, Mglik said:

Chris,

No I have not seen your post at Vinyl Engine.

Can you send a link?

Thanks

Mike

The biggest Commonwealth resurrection in history, and a LOT of handy info.

The ABC used to bolt the Commonwealths into a 1 inch thick steel desk, 1 use a 24mm Corian topplate set into a multi layered wood plinth

[cafe latte]

2 hours ago, Mglik said:

Chris,

No I have not seen your post at Vinyl Engine.

Can you send a link?

Thanks

Mike

Here.

https://www.vinylengine.com/turntable_forum/viewtopic.php?f=18&t=34547&sid=2cd7dd15ec2ed7131a18041ace58f658

[Mglik]

Posting on the Audiogon Forum, many said that these vintage TTs like Commonwealth, Garrard, Lenco, Technics, etc. can’t be compared to a high end modern TT. Several suggest the Kronos Sparta. 

[marcusD]

34 minutes ago, Mglik said:

Posting on the Audiogon Forum, many said that these vintage TTs like Commonwealth, Garrard, Lenco, Technics, etc. can’t be compared to a high end modern TT. Several suggest the Kronos Sparta. 

Looks like a nice table, I guess it really is a different solution, and it might really suit your choice in carts and preferred style of musical presentation. You probably need to listen to a few of these tables in your system to make a call before pulling the trigger.

I have owned some of the modern “super “ tables and really enjoyed them, but I have ended up with a Commonwealth and PTP (type) Lenco, I have found that they are the only tables ( in a heavy plinth) that can sink the energy of a high mass arm and very low compliance carts.

[cafe latte]

On 14/02/2023 at 5:09 AM, Mglik said:

Posting on the Audiogon Forum, many said that these vintage TTs like Commonwealth, Garrard, Lenco, Technics, etc. can’t be compared to a high end modern TT. Several suggest the Kronos Sparta. 

There are few modern turntables at any price that come close to a well serviced SP10mk2. On AK ages ago there was a thread where they were doing linear plots of various turntables and the SP10mk2 was super smooth, no issues with cogging at all. A turntable needs to rotate at the right speed quietly and smoothly, few turntables do it in these respects as well as a well sorted SP10mk2. Commonwealth are different, they are not as super quiet of course and wow and flutter will be higher, that said in these respects they are very good indeed, rumble is low enough as not to matter, they are silent really, you cant hear any issues at all. They have a real slam about them and they will last you forever. Old broadcast idlers are just as valid as anything else, they are not going to be as technically accurate as an SP10mk2 for example, but they are special sounding turntables. Most of the nay sayers have never actually heard one..

I actually have both SP10mk2, (4 actually) a Lenco, a couple of Orphus Silex a sl1200G and a modded mk2 and I do love my Commonwealth.

Chris

[Mglik]

Thanks Chris,

 

I started out looking for a good Sp10 MK3. Found a couple in good shape and in nice plinths.

But several told me that the Mk3 was dry compared to an idler. And that the CW is well beyond my Garrard 301.

Is your second CW just the chassis? 

Here is my email. Maybe you can send photos if you decide to sell.

mike at the green cable dot com

Best,

Mike

[cafe latte]

3 minutes ago, Mglik said:

Thanks Chris,

 

I started out looking for a good Sp10 MK3. Found a couple in good shape and in nice plinths.

But several told me that the Mk3 was dry compared to an idler. And that the CW is well beyond my Garrard 301.

Is your second CW just the chassis? 

Here is my email. Maybe you can send photos if you decide to sell.

mike at the green cable dot com

Best,

Mike

The second one is just a chassis.

I dont feel that Technics are dry, we need to ask what dry is, if it is the music and just the music is that not a good thing?

Whatever people say, I turntable running super quiet (rumble) and at the perfect speed and with crazy low levels of wow and flutter (super smooth) and the massive platter and construction prevents room modes or music getting back to the stylus then if that is dry I feel it is a good thing.

The SP10mk3 was the best we could do with the technology to address all vinyl issues. The Commonwealth is stunning but it is apples and oranges, what do you actually want from a turntable?

I have both idler and direct drive, I love my idlers but I use my direct drives more. Nothing wrong with idler they sound stunning, but the SP10mk2 does things so well I just want to use it more.

Chris