davidsss Posted September 28, 2008 Posted September 28, 2008 Just picked up a box set the other day: Bach: 6 Brandenburg Concertos Archive Productions Box Set played by Munich Bach Orchestra with Karl Richter. We'll see how that goes when I have a chance to listen. DS
hired goon Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 G'day, Picked up a second-hand box set today of Beethoven Complete Piano Sonatas and Diabelli Variations, by Canadian pianist Anton Kuerti. $25 for 10 CDs, so good value there. I've read some glowing reviews of this set (e.g.), but on a brief listen it seems a bit all over the shop. Some parts are v-e-r-y slow (e.g., third movement of the Hammerklavier is a bum-numbing 25 mins, which must surely be a record), while other movements (such as the third movement of the Moonlight) are a bit too presto and clipped for my taste. I thought this was a 90s digital recording, but turns out it's a mid 70's recording with a 1996 remastering. Sounds like a 70s recording to me, and at times the sound kinda drifts in and out as if someone was moving the mike around. Still, not too bad (especially for the price) and will require some more listening. --Geoff
Keith_W Posted October 2, 2008 Author Posted October 2, 2008 HG thanks for the review. IMO the Beethoven Sonata set I enjoy the most is the Schnabel set. I saw this for sale the other day for $56. I bought my copy back in the early 90's for $120!
2sheds Posted October 2, 2008 Posted October 2, 2008 G'day,Currently spinning in my head all day: third movement (presto agitato) of Beethoven's Piano Sonata #14 in C Sharp Minor (or "Moonlight" to his friends). I just can't stop playing air-piano to the pounding chords and arpeggios in this piece (which may be why I got some odd looks on the bus on the way home this afternoon). Geoff, I suspect I'll be scoffed at by the classical cognoscenti, but I never tire of that piece. I don't know my agitato from a hole in the ground, but I do very much enjoy that soft, delicate style of piano playing. :mad: If you want to practice your air Kempff on the bus, check out Willy tickle the ivories . Looks easy enough....cheers 2sheds
Audiobugged Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 (edited) Been playing Arrau's Beethoven sonatas most of this morning Had his concertos for a while now, but have finally acquired my own set of his sonatas... 1960's recording but acceptable (better than the schnabel set in terms of sound) What can I say - his playing of the sonatas remains very majestic. Very deliberate and different... but I get it immediately what he's trying to do differently... and then "different" becomes "an insightfully different perspective" Definitely very highly recommended and currently right up there with the Gilels as one of my favourites at the moment (need to listen more as I've only gone through those sonatas that I know fairly well...)... I would say that different pianists do different sonatas well - Arrau's reading works very well for many of them, but also not all (so far). I like his tempest, but less so his Waldstein which I feel Gilels does best, followed by Kovacevich (who is not as subtle but has the raw aggressive edge that is exciting). Current subjective ranking (exclude the Ashkenazy which I remember being very good but I only "own" the late/last 4 sonatas and haven't been able to locate where they've gone to for quite a few months now) Favourites in my collection Top tier (in order of preference but close) * Gilels (insightful, incisive, pure Beethoven through and through, pretty good sound quality), * Arrau (majestic interpretation, overcomes his technical slipups, most insightful and searching for a "different" but still compelling reading, sound quality is acceptable though a little "noisy"), Next group (also in order of preference) * Kovacevich (very powerful, very male, bit too much pedal and bit too much liberty with tempo at times, but exciting all the same, great sound quality as you'd expect for the age... I like this set for many sonatas and perhaps it should be in the top group? Reservations are in the earlier sonatas which i feel should be almost "mozartian" in style, but is a bit overplayed/overdone by kovacevich) * Gulda (very good sound quality for the age of recording in 1968, very good technique, tempi can be at breakneck speeds at times but interpretation is very reserved, very "matter of fact" tone which I feel is the norm of his period?) Last Group - Buy only after you've listened and are certain its to your taste group (don't enjoy as much as the others but hesitate to critique further as music is very subjective) * Gould (partial set only - quirky, eccentric, perfection in technique results in some breakneck speeds yet also some very surprisingly/unexpectedly slow tempi, very "gould", certainly not my pick as an introduction to beethoven sonatas) * Schnabel (poorest sound quality and also very similar in reading to Gulda's to me. As such i haven't really bothered to dig deeper. Often the fastest tempi of all) * Brendel (to my mind, too romantic. Even more pedal than kovacevich whom I find overdoes it at times, takes too many liberties with tempo - it's Beethoven for heckssake (!), not Liszt/Chopin/Rachmaninoff - i don't find it "insightful" at all... I just feel like stopping him and disabling the pedal on his piano...) Flame and debate away! PS. debated elevating the kovacevich into the top group, but will restrain for now... AB Edited October 6, 2008 by Audiobugged
hired goon Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 G'day, I've had a listen to the Arrau and quite like it: "majestic" is a good description, and the piano has nice tone as well IMHO. Still prefer Kempff's Sonata 14 #3 however: Arrau seems to baulk at some of the trills. --Geoff
Audiobugged Posted October 6, 2008 Posted October 6, 2008 Thinking of other descriptive words, majestic still remains my favourite, others are deliberate, and at times languid or even lush... Arrau has a good sense - his early beethoven have the classical conservatism, his later beethoven can be languid and lush, but so far never overstepping bounds... no over-pedalling like brendel Yes, you are right in the trills - Arrau's technique is definitely not right up there with the best of the virtuosos... the capability is there, and perhaps his chosen tempi (his waldstein is a little bit too deliberate and slow for me as an example) is such that it is well within his technique. Make no mistake that I'd kill to have the level of technique he has, but the others - gilels, gulda, gould are simply and utterly arrogant - you get the feeling that they could go even faster than the roller coaster speeds some of them attain already without any slips... However, technique is not everything... AB
hired goon Posted October 7, 2008 Posted October 7, 2008 G'day, Listening to my Kuerti Beethoven Piano Sonatas today, starting at CD 1 and working my way through. Quite an interesting set, and well worth the $25 purchasing price. This is a more idiosyncratic reading than most, so I would not recommend it as a first set, but Kuerti does have the necessary technical chops to pull it off. Tempi can be slow on occasion (not a bad thing: I quite liked the 25min Hammerklavier III), and the sound veers towards a bit tinny, but I'm enjoying it so far. Still hoping to get the Arrau, and maybe the Kovocevich so that at least I have a set with decent sound quality. --Geoff
Audiobugged Posted October 7, 2008 Posted October 7, 2008 Still hoping to get the Arrau, and maybe the Kovocevich so that at least I have a set with decent sound quality. --Geoff In terms of sound quality, the modern sets are better - the kovacevich is the best (in my collection) if sound quality is important, the brendel is as good (probably, but I cannot listen to brendel for long as I somehow violently disagree with his readings). I also have the first 15 sonatas from Baremboim that I bought many many years ago. Sound quality is (from my hazy memory) probably comparable as i think its a fully digital recording. However, I don't regard it too highly and much prefer the ashkenazy sonatas that I bought at that time... haven't bothered yet to convert the cds to flac files yet. In terms of the slightly older (read analog) the Gilels is probably among the best in terms of sound quality, the gulda is also pretty decent. The Arrau recordings are a bit noisier, but listenable... would therefore not recommend it if sound quality is one of the key criteria... The Schnabel is definitely the worst set in terms of sound quality - kind of like listening to him playing the piano in a submarine and i have my ear pressed against the periscope on the surface .. For the Schnabel style, I recommend the Gulda as the closest match (very matter of fact, quick, light, classical Beethoven - much fewer liberties with tempi/rubato compared to some of the modern versions) One other conclusion that is inescapeable but obvious if you think about it is that you should buy based on the sonatas that you like most... (becoming inescapeable to me only recently the more I listen). Based on this, I would actually rank the Gilels and then the Kovacevich ahead of all the others for the Waldstein (my personal favourite as this was the sonata that I had on a pedestal for many years as being my holy grail but never actually came to the point of properly learning it)... But, if you prefer the earlier sonatas, Kovacevich is probably not the preferred choice... If you grab my top 3 choices, (Gilels, Arrau, Kovacevich), then you are quite likely to have a very very good collection as the approach from all 3 are quite different. Had a lot of fun yesterday listening to waldstein, la chase, tempest, pathetique, hammerklavier etc... from those 3 - very diverse interpretations... For the serious listener (god i can't finish blabbing sometimes!), another worthwhile avenue is the Schiff masterclasses - he talks at length about each sonata and demonstrates what he thinks beethoven intends and then plays them... great insights!! AB AB
mickj1 Posted October 26, 2008 Posted October 26, 2008 Hi Had a classical listening morning today - Bach's Klavierkonzerte BWV 1052, 1053, 1055 and 1056 Andrei Gavrilov w N. Marriner and SMF on EMI Mozart Clarinet and Oboe Concertos + Concerto for flute and harp - Robert Wolf (fl), Naoko Yoshino (harp), Hans- Peter Westermann (oboe), Wolfgang Meyer (Cl) on Das Alte Werk Vivaldi Complete works for Italian Lute - Jakob Lindberg and Drottningholm Baroque Ensemble on BIS Tchaikovsky - Rococo variations Mischa Maisky and Orpheus Chamber Orch on DG. Very relaxed Cheers Mick
Audiobugged Posted October 26, 2008 Posted October 26, 2008 Spent the last 4+ hours listening to this disc and then back and forth comparing it to the other versions in my collection... (Gilels, Gulda, Kovacevich, Arrau, Gould, Schnabel, and Brendel roughly in that order of preference for "La Chase"/Op.31 no.3 ) I know the last 2 sonatas intimately (Tempest and La Chase) as they were respectively the last 2 sonatas that I studied at length many years ago before I stopped playing. The Paul Lewis version has been rather hard for me to form a conclusion as there are many many things that they are very very good at and his cycle has just been nominated as the best classical recording of the year by Gramaphone (not just the winner in the instrumental category). I have had to come back to it a few times to see whether my viewpoint changed but alas, no (maybe tomorrow? doubtful). Pros: 1) Absolutely fabulous sound - piano has beautiful rich and sonorous tones, recording is spot on - the medium to large studio acoustics captured very very beautifully - it is actually the best of all my recordings of the beethoven sonatas, beats the kovacevich version hands down in terms of sound 2) Paul has a tonal control in spades. I value tonal control very very highly, which is why Perahia has been my favourite pianist for many years, ahead of other more celebrated pianists. Near flawless control of tone/touch, and very very even notes with very subtle gradations at his call... he even has a very good "non-legato" (can't think of the right italian word at this time) at his call, and uses it appropriately to great effect 3) Technique is related to control and he has this in spades as well Flaws (caveat as I've only listened to this disc, not the later sonatas that might possibly be different): Two major ones... but the first one is a BIIIIGGGG one, and in my opinion massive to the point of being fatal. 1) He has little dynamic range. ie. He has little desire to show the breadth of dynamic range ie. he does NOT get Beethoven or get why Beethoven is different to Mozart (imho :eek:) What do i mean? His FFF is roughly between F and FF, and he almost always crescendoes to this point. Especially obvious in the tempest's 3rd movement where about half way into it as my attention started to wonder and I went WTF, what's YOUR point Mr. Lewis? Get to it as I'm bored. Certainly not "tempest", more like waves surging up and down the shore in a lazy afternoon... Or the Scherzo in Op. 31 no3... where there was little playfulness and little to "shock" - the sforzando chords that are meant to shock after the playful pianissimo repeated notes are instead almost languidly incomprehensible. another WTF moment... Or the Presto con Fuoco 3rd movement which I actually believe Gulda does very very well out of all those pianists, albeit a tad too fast (if that is possible), Gilels has that disdainful control that is also very compelling, Kovacevich is a bit too aggressive, to the point of harshness (maybe the recording?). and Lewis? Presto Non Fuoco more like it... 2) He often employs a sickly sweet rubato, giving a very very romanticised version of beethoven. In some ways this is similar to Brendel (though he doesn't over-pedal like Brendel does), which I find almost unlistenable because of this. Searching for analogies... his namesake Mr. Lewis hamilton comes to mind - its like Mr Hamilton taking the Mclaren for a lap on the track showing the best of his abilities, modulating the throttle beautifully and demonstrating perfect control... but the rev limiter set at 8000 rpm rather than the usual 17000 or so rpm... totally not stressing the car and more like taking it for a stroll around the track... (getting carried away in the extreme of this analogy but I shall take the liberty at this late hour) So, in a nutshell, if you are after a recording that is very very good in terms of sound quality, but you will only listen to it in the background - this IS the one to get. For me, I'm sorry Gramaphone magazine, I think you've got it wrong... hopefully I'll change my mind in the morn, but after so much promise where I got all excited in the first 15-20 minutes, here I am quite bitterly disappointed 4 hours later... My last words are... Mr. Lewis, WTF?!? Happy listening! AB Now to google around the net to see whether I'm the lone voice of dissent...
Audiobugged Posted October 26, 2008 Posted October 26, 2008 Ok. Now it makes sense to me... Mr. Lewis is English. Gramaphone mag is a UK mag. Mr. Lewis's mentor was Alfred Brendel. Can't think of any worse pianist to emulate for Beethoven sonatas... well I'd say he was the worst of the well known pianists anyway... Brendel sonatas are over-pedalled, boring, and almost unlistenable imho... But of course it is all to taste and there must be enough people out there who like this style... hmm... AB
Keith_W Posted October 26, 2008 Author Posted October 26, 2008 Great post, thanks Audiobugged! Beethoven wrote his piano sonatas as miniature full scale symphonic pieces, which is why the left and right hands are usually spaced far apart. The left hand provides the massive weight while the right hands provide the lyricism. At least, that's what it looked like from the very few Beethoven pieces I have looked at :eek: I haven't heard the Lewis but your description of it leads me to believe it would be the same kind of emasculated Beethoven that some pianists (notably Brendel) seem to provide. Would love to hear your impressions of my favourite Beethoven sonatas - the late ones. Especially the Hammerklavier and the Arietta from Op. 111. The Arietta might suit a more lyrical playing style - it is more otherworldly and almost ethereal. (edit) just read your reply after I posted - so he IS similar to Brendel after all! Brendel is a typical product of the German piano school - precise, emphasizes beauty of tone and technical precision. But then I have a heavy preference for Russian pianists
Orpheus Posted October 26, 2008 Posted October 26, 2008 Ideally, the piano sonatas should have both intense lyricism and great dynamic contrasts. If there is a triple forzando you should play a triple forzando! Audiobugged, you mentioned playing Beethoven as though it were Mozart. I have the same beef with the playing of Schubert. Schubert's music is littered with triple forzandos, triple fortes, huge crescendoes, whisper quiet pianissimos, yet few seem to believe that he actually meant it! Keith, I'm with you on the Russians. They are amply equipped to play both lyrically and with great force when required.
Audiobugged Posted October 27, 2008 Posted October 27, 2008 Orpheus, Am in agreement with you on the Schubert - most especially in my mind, the B flat major sonata and the wanderer fantasy... with the former being one of the most beautiful sonatas imho (fantastic and beguiling melodic lines which is where Schubert often rules!) Mozart, I firmly believe is not as contrasty dynamically, but more of a suggestion - I personally feel that there is almost as much turmoil and passion within Mozart, but it is all hidden in a veneer of civility as was the custom in that time... And tonal control rules with Mozart - I would suggest that Paul Lewis would make a great Mozart player - as Perahia's playing is so compelling - where a Beethoven would make sfz explicit, Mozart has a hold back but inferred/suggestive micro second pause - Perahia handles that very very beautifully... Other pianists that I have listened to recently that have that delicate touch include include Uchida and also, dare I say it, Yundi Li... (off the top of my head only so obviously there are many many other Mozart exponents...) Good to find someone who agrees... now to find someone who will champion Paul Lewis and argue why and what I've overlooked etc... :eek: AB Ideally, the piano sonatas should have both intense lyricism and great dynamic contrasts. If there is a triple forzando you should play a triple forzando!Audiobugged, you mentioned playing Beethoven as though it were Mozart. I have the same beef with the playing of Schubert. Schubert's music is littered with triple forzandos, triple fortes, huge crescendoes, whisper quiet pianissimos, yet few seem to believe that he actually meant it! Keith, I'm with you on the Russians. They are amply equipped to play both lyrically and with great force when required.
mickj1 Posted October 31, 2008 Posted October 31, 2008 Hi Managed to pick up three new CDs at the ABC shop sale today - Trio Sonatas by Arcadia, Claire Edwardes Percussion Cd Coil and Mozart Horn Concertos Lin Jiang and Barry Tuckwell w the WA Symphony Orchestra. The first two are on Tall Poppies Records - and the recording quality is superb - the Claire Edwardes CD is a delight for giving the system a work out - she plays marimba and vibraphone but is assisted by a couple of others (Andrew Ford and Damien Ricketson) who play a variety of drums and other percussion instruments. Cheers Mick
Geoffwiggle Posted November 4, 2008 Posted November 4, 2008 Sorry AB, I've got to disagree with you on Paul Lewis's set. I think it's terrific, and, rather than being understated, if anything, I think he goes a little over the top with dynamics and contrast. I really like it because it shows the humourous, dynamic, engaging and elegant side, as well as the profoundly romantic and philosophical side of Beethoven's creative genius. Sometimes (too often for my tastes) the latter is emphasised and the former more or less forgotten. Remember also that Beethoven wrote for a very different, much lighter, more elegant instrument than we now hear him performed on. Of course, everyone will have a favourite, and Lewis may never be yours, but for me Lewis represents a more modern, historically-informed style of playing that suits me to a tee. Having said that, this is a great forum for discussing recordings of classical music, and without well-informed, well-expressed ideas like yours, it wouldn't be so much fun . Thanks for the intelligent debate, I love it.
Audiobugged Posted November 4, 2008 Posted November 4, 2008 Sorry AB,I've got to disagree with you on Paul Lewis's set. I think it's terrific, and, rather than being understated, if anything, I think he goes a little over the top with dynamics and contrast. I really like it because it shows the humourous, dynamic, engaging and elegant side, as well as the profoundly romantic and philosophical side of Beethoven's creative genius. Sometimes (too often for my tastes) the latter is emphasised and the former more or less forgotten. Remember also that Beethoven wrote for a very different, much lighter, more elegant instrument than we now hear him performed on. Of course, everyone will have a favourite, and Lewis may never be yours, but for me Lewis represents a more modern, historically-informed style of playing that suits me to a tee. Having said that, this is a great forum for discussing recordings of classical music, and without well-informed, well-expressed ideas like yours, it wouldn't be so much fun . Thanks for the intelligent debate, I love it. No worries - to each his/her own... Having said that, I have only listened to the Op.31 No. 1,2,3 from the Paul Lewis CD, and from what I have read, his renditions of the later beethoven sonata are more dynamically contrasty... I have just bought myself a piano (used Kawai upright) and am looking to start practising so these debates have certainly energised me !!! :o Actually, by coincidence, I did spend some of last night re-listening to the final movements of op.31 no.3 and 2 (hunt and tempest) and still stand by my assertions for the Lewis renditions - does not seem to have a focal climactic point in either one, but rather surges up and down in a relatively narrow dynamic range that is around mF to F... And again the liberal use of rubato irks me though not to the same extent as the Brendel versions... Contrast with the Kovacevich renditions which I feel is pushing it to the limit in terms of excitement - and why not?!? Presto Con Fuoco! - play it like it was meant to be played!!! AB
hired goon Posted November 5, 2008 Posted November 5, 2008 G'day, David Jalbert - "Shostakovich: 24 Preludes And Fugues" (Atma, 2008). I had some trepidation about this CD: I am used to the Tatiana Nikolayeva version of the Preludes. Shostakovich wrote the Preludes specifically for Nikolayeva, and her recording on Melodiya was superb. It is also about 20 minutes longer than the Jalbert version (on 3CDs instead of 2CDs). But sadly I have lost that CD, and it is very expensive to replace (in fact, the version on Melidoya that I prefer is out of print, but I think another label has re-released it). But this was a bargain at $22 (the local classical music store is regrettfully closing down and had all classical stock half price), so worth a punt IMHO. And I am glad I did: Jalbert is a confident, intelligent and virtuistic player, perhaps not as intense and thundering as Nikolayeva, but more nuanced. The recoding itself, though perhaps a little quiet and reverby for my liking, is also very good (I find I need to turn the volume up a notch more than other recordings). The Preludes themselves are obviously a homage to Bach, but these pieces are not as contrapunctal as the master. Shostakovich also makes each prelude and fugue more indepenent, covering a wider variety of styles instead of a series of variations. I'm still going to search for another copy of the Nikolayeva, but this is good enough to tide me over until then. There's a review here that mentions a Naxos edition positively, which I might also check out. Sound samples here. --Geoff
Andythiing Posted November 5, 2008 Posted November 5, 2008 JS Bach - Karl Richter Munchener Bach-Orrchester on Archiv Produktio from 1974 - picked it up for $1 at Big Star in great condition and the LP is sounding lovelly - really enjoying this! (and its got a great silver cover which is what attracted me too it)
Keith_W Posted November 5, 2008 Author Posted November 5, 2008 JS Bach - Karl Richter Munchener Bach-Orrchester on Archiv Produktio from 1974 - picked it up for $1 at Big Star in great condition and the LP is sounding lovelly - really enjoying this! (and its got a great silver cover which is what attracted me too it) That is very good - what are they playing? Brandenburg Concerti / Bach Suites? You will find that Richter presents a large scale Bach, which is grand, stately, chaste, and sober. Totally different from more modern interpretations of Bach, which tend to be faster, more nimble, with more emphasis on rhythm. It is worth obtaining a more modern recording (e.g. John Eliot Gardiner) just to compare the different approaches.
Keith_W Posted November 8, 2008 Author Posted November 8, 2008 I went CD shopping today and picked up the Paul Lewis Beethoven set after reading Audiobugged and Geoffwiggle's comments. So far I have only listened to the Les Adieux and the Op. 109, 110, and 111 sonatas. I also have in my collection: Schnabel (complete), Ashkenazy (complete), Gilels (complete), as well as individual discs by Richter, Brendel, Wilhelm Kempff, Freddy Kempf, Hewitt, Horowitz, Gould, Arrau, Solomon, and Gieseking. Whilst I don't love all of them, my favourites would be Schnabel, Gilels, and Richter. Lewis has an exhilarating array of tone colour which he uses to superb effect. At about 10 mins into the Op. 111, the bass chords die away and the piano rings out in the treble like little bells. However, I don't like the way he handles some of the chords - it strikes me as a bit heavy handed. The Op. 111 should surge back and forth like breathing - the way he played some notes ruined that effect for me. His trills are probably one of the best in the business. I would agree with Audiobugged that his dynamics were muted (sorry Geoffwiggle). In this regard I think he is comparable to his mentor, Alfred Brendel. If you want to hear fireworks, listen to Arrau, Richter or Gilels. Or even the Schnabel - he wasn't shy to bang out chords if he had to. OK I take your point that Beethoven's piano was a much more lightweight instrument than modern pianos, but IMO the pianist should make decisions which make musical sense, rather than try to emulate what Beethoven would have heard. After my brief listen tonight I was wondering what all the fuss was about. Yes he is very good but he's not going to displace my other recordings in a hurry. I will listen some more tomorrow, have the whole day off! (And HG - I have the Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues by Nikolaeva on order).
hired goon Posted November 8, 2008 Posted November 8, 2008 G'day, I went CD shopping today and picked up the Paul Lewis Beethoven set [...] If I had known you wanted this I could have picked it up last week for half price when the local classical CD store was closing down. I thought about getting the set for myself but didn't know whether I'd like it or not (prolly not since I'm not a Brendel fan). (And HG - I have the Shostakovich Preludes and Fugues by Nikolaeva on order).Choice. Which label? --Geoff
Keith_W Posted November 8, 2008 Author Posted November 8, 2008 HG it's on Hyperion. Did she record it on more than one label?
hired goon Posted November 9, 2008 Posted November 9, 2008 G'day, HG it's on Hyperion. Did she record it on more than one label? There's a 1987 recording on Melodiya (the one I use to have), and a 1990 recording on Hyperion. The 1987 Melidoya is out of print, but apparently has been re-released under the Regis label, with some different mastering. See here for more info. Where did you order the Hyperion, and how much was it? Must be $90 or so locally, I assume. --Geoff
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