Ethernet switches - PartA: Switches List, info & Experience

[mattjtaylor2809]

No prob's....I have just placed an order for the Supra Cat 8 cable as it did seem the best of the cheapies but I've also spoken to a guy in Canada who is hand making Ethernet cables using 10% silver + copper & using Telegartner connectors, I think they retail for about $200.

 

https://www.canuckaudiomart.com/details/649595681-new-release-cat8-ethernet-10silver-teflon-dielectric-solid-core-ofhcc-copper-telegartner-81-terminat/

 

I'll let you know how I get on, unless you know of anyone making these locally?

 

Cheers

Matt

[frednork]

On 19/02/2020 at 2:38 PM, Snoopy8 said:

Some owners liked having a Cisco 2960 in front of the Uptone EtherRegen (ER).  I found that the Cisco changed the sound slightly and prefer running without it. I am speculating that maybe those owners were used to the Cisco 2960 sound and thus chose to retain it in the chain?

 

@frednork had a much shorter listening session on my setup and agreed it was better without the 2960.

After @Snoopy8 managed to get my 2690 working I finally put it into my system recently. First off I have to say my network does seem a bit flaky at times and am about to try another router but nonetheless. It is true that a quick comparison at Snoopy's seemed to me to show that not only was the 2960 not better upstream of the ER but I thought even maybe slightly worse! 

 

In this case in my setup I was comparing a tplink wireless router connected by cable (and  set up as a switch with wireless on),  with the cisco 2960. This in turn was connected to another switch from SOTM which is clocked by the SMS 200 ultra neo (more info here . https://cruxaudio.com.au/collections/sotm-ultra/products/sms-200ultra-neo-ethernet-switch-mod }

 

In this situation the 2960 was better, the 3d soundstage was more precise and delineated and sound seemed crisper. I was surprised as I expected it would be same or worse, but I guess the clocked switch (which is  a  modded dlink in this case) is not an ER. But the other thing is SNoopy's setup is not typical as he runs the Devialet phantoms and a dialogue. I will try again at some point with the wireless turned off on the tplink to see if that is the thing causing problems. ANd if I get the chance will try the ER again in my setup with and without the 2960.

 

 

[Snoopy8]

2 hours ago, mattjtaylor2809 said:

I'm 95% happy with my digital front end, it sounds pretty dam good but, it can sometimes be a little harsh, possibly digital glare so I'm happy enough to spen some cash if I can improve the sound by another 2-3%, hopefully more.

By sheer coincidence, this person is using a similar setup to yours and mentioned that digital glare is gone with the ER!

https://audiophilestyle.com/forums/topic/57519-uptone-audio-etherregen-listening-impressions/page/37/?tab=comments#comment-1033319

 

Remember that the ER comes with 30 day money back guarantee and honoured by Uptone and their dealer, AfterDark in HK (I asked them specifically). The problem is the short supply. I was lucky that AfterDark had an oversupply in December but all dealer order requests to Uptone since then have been repeatedly short delivered due to high demand.

[Snoopy8]

7 minutes ago, frednork said:

ANd if I get the chance will try the ER again in my setup with and without the 2960.

You know you CAN!  

[Assisi]

I have a Paul Pang Dual Switch.  It provided an impressive benefit in my system.  I was curious as what benefit there might be with a second switch as it is a suggested setup on various sites.  I considered getting an EtherRegen.  I decided however to go up to the Paul Pang Quad switch.  It has been ordered and hopefully it will be here late next week.  The Paul Pang Dual is going to a good home.

My decision was based on the probability that with the EtherRegen, I would also want a better power supply.  To me the cost of the two items would be greater than the changeover of the Paul Pang’s.

I wait to hear the outcome of the Quad Switch.

With optical I am not sure of the benefit.  There is a definite noticeable change with the converters and cable in Vs them out.  However, it seems to me with them in there is something small missing.  It has been suggested to me that the conversions that happen may actually have a minute detrimental impact.  It is interesting to contemplate.  I need to listen more.  In or out, things are good.

 

John

[frednork]

46 minutes ago, Assisi said:

I decided however to go up to the Paul Pang Quad switch.  It has been ordered and hopefully it will be here late next week.  The Paul Pang Dual is going to a good home.

You dont muck around do you @Assisi!!

[Assisi]

4 hours ago, frednork said:

You dont muck around do you @Assisi!!

Hi @frednorkSometimes no I don't.  

A previous set up that I had was Antipodes DX into various DACs via USB.  There was NAS but to little used and not much purpose.  The Network was mainly for communication.  When I went to ROON core on a Linux audio box and a Network player plus a Networked DSP component the network became essential.  With the network Paul Pang switch replacing the Netgear 108 switch and the benefit, it became obvious to me the direction I needed to go.

USB may have once been the new frontier for the playing of digital files.  From my lay person perspective, I consider that things have shifted and it is now the Ethernet and switches etc. that is the new frontier

I know that there are people with considerable network knowledge and skills who will deny the benefits I and others have experienced.  I suggest that they have a try and listen.  They may be surprised as to the outcome.  Nothing ventured nothing gained.  No point in mucking around when there is potential benefit to be had.

John

[RussB]

4 hours ago, Assisi said:

 

With optical I am not sure of the benefit.  There is a definite noticeable change with the converters and cable in Vs them out.  However, it seems to me with them in there is something small missing.  It has been suggested to me that the conversions that happen may actually have a minute detrimental impact.  It is interesting to contemplate.  I need to listen more.  In or out, things are good.

I’m running fibre with a TP-Link MC220L upstream and Sonore Optical Module (OM) downstream which is powered by a borrowed SOTM SPS-1000.  Adding this into my system with SOTM CAT7 from OM to streamer is giving a noticeably smoother sound, seemingly less digital.  Not feeling something is missing as a result, but interested to hear what it is that you think might be missing, if you can put your finger onto it.  

 

I’m interested in dropping the TP-Link MC220L out and just feeding OM into A-side of Etherregen via fibre and SOTM CAT7 from B-side into streamer.  That way, the fibre is just running between two quality components designed ground up, both with input by Swenson. Still power supply to consider obviously.  

[dbastin]

On 03/03/2020 at 7:32 PM, RussB said:

... feeding OM into A-side of Etherregen via fibre ... That way, the fibre is just running between two quality components designed ground up, both with input by Swenson.

I'm thinking that might come very close to what a 2nd switch upstream would do, for less expense.  I am on the verge of doing this ... just gotta overcome reluctance to deal with locating and securing 2 very small components in my system shelving.  At least bigger heavier things stay put, but these little things might not.

 

Wot fibre cable and SFPs are you using?  Sonore?

Edited March 4, 2020 by dbastin

[RussB]

3 hours ago, dbastin said:

I'm thinking that might come very close to what a 2nd switch upstream would do, for less expense.  I am on the verge of doing this ... just gotta overcome reluctance to deal with locating and securing 2 very small components in my system shelving.  At least bigger heavier stays put, but these little things might not.

 

Wot fibre cable and SFPs are you using?  Sonore?

 

Yep I’m using Sonore fibre cable, and both OM and TP-Link MC220L have same TP-Link SFP that is supplied with OM and listed here:

 

https://www.sonore.us/opticalModule.html

 

I tried the OM into Etherregen set-up when a friend lent me his Etherregen for an afternoon but I couldn’t get it working with the SFP from my 220L inserted into Etherregen.  I raised this with Alex at Uptone.  He confirmed that the OM into A-side of Etherregen set up should work and suggested I try the following SFP that they use:

 

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00U77VPX2

 

I havent managed to try this yet, but very interested to hear how you go..

 

 

[Snoopy8]

18 hours ago, Assisi said:

Hi @frednorkSometimes no I don't.  

You did tell me you are not patient!  I understand that now!   

18 hours ago, Assisi said:

I know that there are people with considerable network knowledge and skills who will deny the benefits I and others have experienced. 

Let's not go there... We agree to disagree with others and move on.

 

This thread should focus on the user experience and guiding people to exploring this new area.

[dbastin]

On 03/03/2020 at 7:32 PM, RussB said:

 ... running fibre with a TP-Link MC220L upstream and Sonore Optical Module (OM) downstream which is powered by a borrowed SOTM SPS-1000.  Adding this into my system with SOTM CAT7 from OM to streamer is giving a noticeably smoother sound ...

How much of what you are getting is from just the fibre and OM?  That PSU and Cat7 could be making quite a difference.

[RussB]

6 hours ago, dbastin said:

How much of what you are getting is from just the fibre and OM?  That PSU and Cat7 could be making quite a difference.

I have been running the SOTM CAT7 into the streamer for a couple of years now, so that hasn’t changed.  That made a big difference when I introduced it over Blue Jeans.  

 

As far as cables are concerned, what has changed with introduction of fibre is that instead of the SOTM cable going straight from streamer into switch, it goes into the OM and another cable has to be introduced between the 220L and switch.  Unfortunately, I don’t have a second SOTM DCBL-CAT7 to use there in order to provide a cleaner comparison of fibre in and out.  I have tried a few cables including Wireworld Silver Starlight, Blue Jeans, Supra CAT8 and Elecom in that position.  The sound is smoother than the without fibre set up in all cases except probably Blue Jeans in that position but various other changes occur depending on the cable. All a bit confusing really.  I’m currently using Elecom in the upstream position which seems to produce an even more silky smooth sound in my system.  But doing this reduces spatial cues and soundstage compared to SOTM cable alone, which SOTM cable is great for.  

 

So it can be a bit tricky running a clean comparison of fibre in versus out when you don’t have two of your preferred cable for that run.  For a cleaner comparison, but still subject to additional psu influences, I compared single Elecom from switch to streamer, with fibre book-ended by two Elecoms.  In that case I prefer the sound with the fibre in.  But I prefer it more with SOTM cable at streamer end.  I haven’t really done any testing with the power supplies. Am using the SPS-1000 on OM and Gieseler triple voltage on 220L.

[mattjtaylor2809]

For me, installing x2 TP Link MC100's into my system did have a nice effect of lowering noise floor & reducing digital sheen, it gave the sound a more organic, natrual feel but I'm yet to install better power to the media converters & my switch or install a better than generic Cat6 cable but this will change over the next day or 2 so I'll let you know how I go.

 

Cheers

Matt

[Snoopy8]

 

Hans really stuck his neck out this time and has enraged the digital inquisitors (as he called them) even more.

[frednork]

On 03/03/2020 at 12:05 PM, frednork said:

After @Snoopy8 managed to get my 2690 working I finally put it into my system recently. First off I have to say my network does seem a bit flaky at times and am about to try another router but nonetheless. It is true that a quick comparison at Snoopy's seemed to me to show that not only was the 2960 not better upstream of the ER but I thought even maybe slightly worse! 

 

In this case in my setup I was comparing a tplink wireless router connected by cable (and  set up as a switch with wireless on),  with the cisco 2960. This in turn was connected to another switch from SOTM which is clocked by the SMS 200 ultra neo (more info here . https://cruxaudio.com.au/collections/sotm-ultra/products/sms-200ultra-neo-ethernet-switch-mod }

 

In this situation the 2960 was better, the 3d soundstage was more precise and delineated and sound seemed crisper. I was surprised as I expected it would be same or worse, but I guess the clocked switch (which is  a  modded dlink in this case) is not an ER. But the other thing is SNoopy's setup is not typical as he runs the Devialet phantoms and a dialogue. I will try again at some point with the wireless turned off on the tplink to see if that is the thing causing problems. And if I get the chance will try the ER again in my setup with and without the 2960.

 

 

I have tried again with wireless off and the results are a bit confusing but it is what it is..... I hadnt been listening to the system much in the meantime or it was in the background.  So I retested the tplink  switch.

When the wireless was off I could not discern a difference from when it was on. ok, good, job done. When I switched back to the cisco I had a bit of a listen.  Somehow didnt sound as good as the tplink now. It sounded crisper and a bit more detail in the soundstage as noted before but maybe something wasnt quite right. went back and forth a few times. Definitely preferred the tplink and the cisco was sounding almost unpleasant. It was like the drivers were being constricted and the tplink was just free flowing sounding.  Not suggesting the tplink is worth searching out (the Etherregen is much better) but didnt want to let others think the cisco was worth searching out either. 

[Snoopy8]

11 hours ago, frednork said:

Not suggesting the tplink is worth searching out (the Etherregen is much better) but didnt want to let others think the cisco was worth searching out either. 

Interesting finding.

 

The Naim user forum is probably the most active with testing the Cisco 2960 and even comparing variants e.g. PoE, different models etc.  About a quarter of EtherREGEN owners used the Cisco prior. So the Cisco does something to convince people to use it in the first place.

 

** At least 1 person is advocating putting the Cisco in front of the ER.

Edited March 7, 2020 by Snoopy8
Added **

[frednork]

4 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

Interesting finding.

 

The Naim user forum is probably the most active with testing the Cisco 2960 and even comparing variants e.g. PoE, different models etc.  About a quarter of EtherREGEN owners used the Cisco prior. So the Cisco does something to convince people to use it in the first place.

 

** At least 1 person is advocating putting the Cisco in front of the ER.

Will give that a go sometime soon with your gracious assistance

[dbastin]

I've added a couple of new switches on the List in the 1st post - both discovered on After Dark website.  One is DELA which appears to be a lower spec Melco S100.  The other is this (AU$645-1050) ...

https://www.adark.co/collections/audiophile-grade-networking-system/products/afterdark-project-clayx-constellation-optical-lan-isolated-network-switch-x-black-handhartilo-mini-series

 

This page is translated into English below (note, some of the following appears to be in English on the above web page).  Enjoy the occasional odd words and interpretting what they really mean.

 

From the photo, it appears to be 2 switches in one.

 

Isolate Network Switch 

 

Electromagnetic interference (EMI) is designed to minimize the impact on RF interference and other forms of EMI when designing a high-precision audio Network Switch. Material selection, physical layout, grounding practice, and digital line design slots have been specified to reduce the impact of electromagnetic fields on native performance. At the same time, however, the main goal of the owner is to accurately reproduce the recording music in a normal home environment.

 

AfterDark. x 2018 Constellation Optical Lan Isolated Network Switch.

Optical Lan Isolated Network Switch LAN Music Streamer such as Lumin X1, Linn DS, Aurender, I-O Data Soundgenic, Synology DS918+, Oppo Blu Ray Player, Raspberry Pi 3 Player or any UPnP/ DLNA player.

 

Why carbon fiber shielding?

Carbon fiber originated in aeronautical materials, but with the use of this material more and more widely, carbon fiber shielding has been successful in solving electronic devices with EMI (electromagnetic interference), successfully using carbon fiber composite shielding method sedited to the audio network Switch.

 

CISCO SFP 10G SEP optical module design features for server level?

• Features with a separate set of 2 sets of fiber optic cable, to run the balanced clock digital signal, 1 set of fiber optic cable is used for data transmission, and 1 set of fiber optic cable is wire data reception, which is to protect data integrity and avoid interference with each other.
• In addition, CISCO SFP connectors add high-end industrial-grade Exotic EMI shielding (KEMET Corporation) to further avoid EMI/RF signal
• The included fiber optic cable is commscope OM4 server-grade premium fiber line, and all Commscope fiber lines are accompanied by laboratory test reports for maximum fiber performance. 

Is the Constellation Network Switch equipped with a linear power supply?

• Built-in AfterDark. Black Weane 5V Linear Power
• Equipped to upgrade to use Audio Grade Furutech NCF IEC socket

Constellation Network Switch sound style? 

• Bass is more refined, the mid-treble is sweeter, the details are rich and elegant microdynamic analysis style, the background is darker,
• The sense of spatial separation increases.
• The focus is more accurate.
• Thanks to the use of carbon fiber shielding, the digital signal is darker with rich detail.

"Black Modernize”Concept？

• Black Constellation (CFS) Optical Fiber Audio Lan Isolator Performance Modules:
  1. Full Duplex 1000M Audio Grade Lan Isolator
  2. 2 x CISCO SFP 10G Server Grade Optical Modules for Critical Mission Application
  3. Commscope OM4 Server Grade Optical Fiber Cable
• “Sound Tuning” mod to replace Audio Note KANSEI Capacitor on Network Switch
• Black Modernize Carbon Fiber Anti-Resonance Plate x 2
• Black Modernize Connection Interface on Power IEC socket at the back plate
• Black Modernize 5V Linear Power Supply or UPS Battery Powered on Black Constellation (CFS) Optical Fiber Lan Isolator
• Performance Tweak with EMI Shielding on all connectors
• Performance Tweak with WA Quantum Chip on Optical Fiber Lan Isolator / Switch.
• AfterDark Black Modernize Carbon Fiber Anti-Resonance Enclosure Case for Audiophile

Optional:

• AfterDark. Clementine 1.82m US Power Cable
• AfterDark. Constellation CAT7 Telegartner Jumper Cable between Lan Isolator and Network Switch

Specification:

• The "Black" carbon fiber anti-resonant plate is made of 6mm front/3mm thick carbon fiber Audiophile MAT for EMI shielding and anti-resonance applications for Audiophile Network Applications. This will prevent external noise from entering the LAN signal conductor, as well as the high performance density of the carbon fiber shield to further prevent noise (RFI, etc.) from entering.
• Optical Lan Isolators for audio connections for enthusiasts to enhance noise isolation performance. so that the enthusiast can connect.
• Black Constellation Optical Lan Isolator, this optical module isolator interface is upgraded to the CISCO server-grade 10G SFP optical module and commercial server-level Commscope fiber optic cable to provide optimal data transfer with "lower error rate" to provide optimal audio performance. A separate linear power supply is used to provide optimal audio performance. The details and sound fields of high-resolution audio will be significantly improved.
• The Audio-grade Audio Note KANSEI capacitor is used for the fever-grade Network Switch, with EMI shielding, and enhances audio performance with appropriate carbon fiber shielding (CFS) technology and audio applications.
• Upgrading the Furutech FI-06 NCF IEC socket will be equipped with enhanced musical expression and conductivity.
• Project ClayX Black Element Duelund Cable will be used for internal wires.
• A stand-alone Black Modernization 5V linear power supply will eliminate EMI interference and provide a more stable burn-grade power supply for high-fever Network Switch.
• Additional anti-absorption materials are placed on the connector board to eliminate signal noise and better separation from vibration interference.
• The "carbonized screw" is used to secure the Black Modernization carbon fiber plate.
• Dimensions: 230mm x 90mm x 258mm
• Handmade products manufactured in Hong Kong.

Edited March 10, 2020 by dbastin

[Snoopy8]

Thank you @dbastin for maintaining this most useful list.  After all this diligent  research, are you any closer to trying any?  Or are you waiting for us guinea pigs to stumble and fall ?    

 

By the way, there will be interesting white paper and a review coming out tomorrow which will likely enrage the digital inquisitors and start another round of the Ethernet switch cultural wars. 

[dbastin]

21 minutes ago, Snoopy8 said:

are you any closer to trying any? 

I finally bit the bullet ... just ordered ER from AfterDark, together with Constellation SFP modules, fibre cable and Telegartner Cat 8 from here ... 

https://www.adark.co/collections/online-shop-special-on-grand-opening/products/copy-of-uptone-etherregen-femto-switch-pre-order-enjoy-worldwide-free-shipping-tax-free

BTW, the link does not go to a special deal on ER.

My other option - an Antipodes DX3 (switch built in) + upstream isolation such as JCAT LAN Isolator, or even Gigafoilv4.  I may still do that in future.  There are so many ways to skin this CAT - like the pun?

Edited March 10, 2020 by dbastin

[dbastin]

Thanks to @Snoopy8 for discovering this interesting review.

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/298077-uptone-audio-etherregen-owners-thread/?do=findComment&comment=4476760

 

The author finds that with Mutec Clock the EtherRegen competes very closely with SOtM upgraded sNH-10G and not far behind Melco S100

 

"The S100 surpassed the eR by a modest amount in its transient response of the guitar plucks, and the guitar sounds more solid and 3-dimensional.   Listening on other pieces, this advantage persisted, with the S100 portraying quicker transients with more density and saturation of the soundstage. This difference, while notable, was not huge. Still, in terms of absolute sonic performance, I would give the nod to the S100."

 

And EtherRegen benefits from a 2 switch typology and even Sonore OpticaModule (esp. with good SFP transceivers) upstream:

 

"The oM added even more dimensionality, more meat on the bone, while also opening up the soundstage ... The majority of the SQ gain comes from the eR .... The addition of the oM is like the icing on the cake. "

 

I note the author did not compare OM with an average MC like TP link.

 

I gather SFP transceivers and even the fibre cable will affect the sound, so some experimentation may be needed.  For instance, After Dark considers its fibre should be at least 3m for optimum performance (and dont sell shorter lengths).  And it might depend on what ethernet cable is being compared.  I read AudioBacon considers fibre not quite as good as his reference ethernet cable, however his reference cable is very good and SFPs and switch/MCs may not be of similar performance standard. 

Edited March 11, 2020 by dbastin

[Hytram]

On 02/03/2020 at 11:16 AM, mattjtaylor2809 said:

Just on a side note, anyone using the SFP connection as if I were to go down this road, I maybe able to remove the cheap TP Link switch by using the SFP connection, the A ports would be used for Foxtel, Oppo, Fetch TV & HT Amp?

 

 

On 02/03/2020 at 5:35 PM, mattjtaylor2809 said:

Hi Snoopy - I'll check out those links & check configurations Vs mine.

 

dbastin - I do bridge my Ethernet connection on the Innous, i.e. from 2nd media converter > LAN port > Streamer port > PS Audio DSJnr DAC.

 

 

Interestingly, some of the boffins on the PS forums suggest connecting the Innous streamer to my DAC via optical or USB NOT via Ethernet into the bridge?? I'm chasing up why as you would loose full MQA unfolding but if it sounds better then I'm not stuck on bridged Ethernet.

 

I'll look into the other suggestions you mentioned.

 

I have read Snoopys ER thread plus a similar thread on the PS Audio forums so trying to better understand options but I do like your suggestion of starting a close to the end point as possible, that makes sense.

 

I'm trying to find the Ethernet cables for audio thread?

 

Cheers

Matt

 

 

not sure this has been answered or I am on the wrong path,

 

but I think the question was can you run the above DAC's optical to the SFP port of the EtherREGEN Type A SFP port

 

short answer is NO

DAC is Tosilink and the SFP slot are not compatible, the SFP can be single(simplex/BiDi), dual (duplex) LC fibre, 550nm - 1550nm and RJ45 ethernet but not toslink

longer answer..kind of

you could use a media convertor to convert the toslink to SFP or Toslink to Ethernet then to run it to the SFP on the EtherREGEN, but this kind of defeats the point.. unless you are running out of ports

but it could sound different...if you believe in that stuff

 

I have added some posts in here if you want some reading on fibre and SFP use

https://www.stereo.net.au/forums/topic/302261-ethernet-cables-for-audio-part-c-use-of-fibre-optical-cables-sfps-media-convertors-etc/

 

Edited March 12, 2020 by Hytram

[mattjtaylor2809]

Hi Guys,

 

My question was could I use the fibre link from one of my media converters (TP Link 110MC) > the etherRegan via SFP & then use the B side > LAN via Ethernet? If this does work, could I use the remaining A side outputs on other components like Foxtel box, Fetch TV etc?

 

Not sure it would improve SQ?

 

Cheers

Matt

[dbastin]

@mattjtaylor2809

The review mentioned in my post of 11 March did what you describe, but with Sonore OpticalModule rather than TP link MC.  So it should work, an furthermore isolate upstream from devices plugged into A ports.

 

Do you know about the EtherRegen owners thread?  You might get some specific experiences from members on that thread.

Edited March 18, 2020 by dbastin