Is a lossless CD rip as good as playing the CD?

[Wouterk]

In my experience the answer is ‘yes’ when doing an AB comparison with a KI Marantz vs. MacMini and Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC. 

What is your experience/ opinion?

[Snoopy8]

I agree and have all my CDs ripped. However, some people still prefer using a disk spinner; if it works for them, that is all the counts.  We should celebrate that different people can enjoy music in different ways... 👍. 

[muon*]

Doesn't matter to me, I play the media I'm setup to play

 

Change the KI Marantz to another player, or the MacMini and Denafrips Terminator digital chain that plays the file to use different components, and the sound will change.

 

Edit: oh, and welcome, Wouter.

Edited September 18, 2022 by muon*

[genkifd]

i have compared my Oppo 105 streaming (flac flies) to playing CDs. with this player and my system CD sounds better. but now i have the lumin U1 mini with LPS playing files sounds much better than Oppo playing CDs.

[georgehifi]

Quote

Is a lossless CD rip as good as playing the CD?

 

I don't know if it is, if it's ripped and burnt to a blank cd then.

Here is a microscope photo of the pits a laser has to read, of a retail stamped cd and then the two burnt ones. (Stamped v burnt gold v burnt aluminium)

Which do you think the cd player will see the "most errors", and try to "error correct" them, remember when an error is corrected, it's a 50/50 bet the one that can't be read is replaced with the correct 0 or 1 as it uses the same 0 or 1 before the non readable one to replace it with, and that's a 50/50 bet to be correct😕

 

Cheers George   

Edited September 18, 2022 by georgehifi

[was_a]

The question is too simple. What you're really asking is: Is audio file playback (streaming / server) as good as CD playback—and you're going to get contrasting opinions here! 

 

You'd have to compare it yourself using a CD player of equal quality to the Lumin server.

 

 

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by was_a

[Cloth Ears]

15 hours ago, Wouterk said:

In my experience the answer is ‘yes’ when doing an AB comparison with a KI Marantz vs. MacMini and Denafrips Terminator Plus DAC. 

What is your experience/ opinion?

You get no read errors on rip.

You may get read errors on playback of a CD.

Otherwise, given the same DAC, the playback should be similar (i.e. they're the same bitstream).

5 hours ago, georgehifi said:

 

I don't know if it is, if it's ripped and burnt to a blank cd then.

Here is a microscope photo of the pits a laser has to read, of a retail stamped cd and then the two burnt ones. (Stamped v burnt gold v burnt aluminium)

Which do you think the cd player will see the "most errors", and try to "error correct" them, remember when an error is corrected, it's a 50/50 bet the one that can't be read is replaced with the correct 0 or 1 as it uses the same 0 or 1 before the non readable one to replace it with, and that's a 50/50 bet to be correct😕

 

Cheers George   

Those two photos on the left/centre are showing the (literal) burnt areas on the disc. Unlike the physical pits on a standard CD, they are actually easier for the laser to 'read' than the original pit/lands setup. This assumes that the 'burn' is accurate...which depends on your CD writer.

 

However, back in the days when we used to write data/software on disc using the burn process, we had 0 errors over a 10 year period. Nowadays it's all 'download from the web' stuff. But I figure 100% is a pretty good (non-)error rate. Noting this was stuff for major banks/financial institutions - and they can be pretty fussy about that sort of thing...

[Ittaku]

The lossless CD rip has the potential to be streamed asynchronously with a huge buffer, so it's potentially better.

[georgehifi]

1 hour ago, Ittaku said:

potential to be streamed

 

Trouble is the streaming/download companies use the latter re-release or remaster >2000  that are usually far more compressed than the original release, so it's a backward step sonically.

 

Cheers George

  

[Ittaku]

1 minute ago, georgehifi said:

Trouble is the streaming/download companies use the latter re-release or remaster >2000  that are usually far more compressed than the original release, so it's a backward step sonically.

That has nothing to do with what I said.

[georgehifi]

 

No but what you get from streaming or downloading is inferior in dynamic range after 2000 compared to the same thing before 2000. And as far as what they use for their original source is, that's anyone's guess.

 

Give me the original earlier release CD pressings that have not been butchered with compression, that gives space to the music, not just better dynamics.

 

eg: Traveling Wilburys album

 https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/year/asc?artist=Traveling Wilburys&album=

 

Look what they did to all the Adele 21 issues, only the vinyl was passable, the CD sounded shocking on my system, OK in the car where compression works to hear the quite passages over the road noise.  

https://dr.loudness-war.info/?artist=Adele&album=21

 

Cheers George

Edited September 19, 2022 by georgehifi

[Hydrology]

4 minutes ago, georgehifi said:

 

No but what you get from streaming or downloading is inferior in dynamic range after 2000 compared to the same thing before 2000. And as far as what they use for their original source is, that's anyone's guess.

 

Give me the original earlier release CD pressings that have not been butchered with compression, that gives space to the music, not just better dynamics.

 

Traveling Wilburys one and only album

 https://dr.loudness-war.info/album/list/1/year/asc?artist=Traveling Wilburys&album=

 

Cheers George

Again, we are not talking about streaming or downloading - we are talking about the physical CD versus that same physical CD now ripped by your music server and played back.

[Batty]

I am in the midst of ripping my CDs to NAS, a slow process.

[georgehifi]

10 minutes ago, Hydrology said:

we are talking about the physical CD versus that same physical CD now ripped by your music server and played back.

 

In a perfect world, it should be no difference, as the error correction 0 or 1 reading the CD will be corrected 50/50, and passed on to the HD of the server, the playback "should" be the same but never better, but "can" be worse if the server and or it's power supply isn't up to scratch, compared to the CD transport.

 

Cheers George 

Edited September 19, 2022 by georgehifi

[BugPowderDust]

I'd wager a well ripped CD, verified on Accurate Rip, would be far less susceptible to playback issues than the same CD in a CD player.

 

Network transports are far more reliable and accurate than mechanical CD transports.  

[muon*]

Yes, but are these potential error corrections with the CD play back audible.

 

I'd postulate that they are not.

 

Edit: in the context of this threads comparisons, and any comparisons like these will be by virtue.... Apples vs Oranges.

Edited September 19, 2022 by muon*

[Cloth Ears]

1 hour ago, georgehifi said:

 

In a perfect world, it should be no difference, as the error correction 0 or 1 reading the CD will be corrected 50/50, and passed on to the HD of the server, the playback "should" be the same but never better, but "can" be worse if the server and or it's power supply isn't up to scratch, compared to the CD transport.

 

Cheers George 

I cannot vouch for the current builds of transport, but the older versions were hampered by being unable (legally) to store the bitstream read from the disc, which meant that most transports did multiple reads and used a 'best guess' algorithm to work out what the actual bitstream was. Whereas, being able to store the actual bitstream and use that as your source means you don't have any worries about losses from reading the disc.

And a good rip will check the results of the rip against what is on the CD to make sure you have everything as planned.

So, in a perfect world, they should be the same. Otherwise ,if your playback system is well built, then the rip would be the better source.

[georgehifi]

31 minutes ago, Cloth Ears said:

then the rip would be the better source.

 

With duplicating Redbook CD, sorry to me it can only be "as good", never better, and worse if the server replay setup is rubbish.

 

Cheers George

Edited September 19, 2022 by georgehifi

[georgehifi]

1 hour ago, BugPowderDust said:

Accurate Rip, would be far less susceptible to playback issues than the same CD in a CD player.

 

 

The source is the same, so play back errors can only be as good as the original.

 

You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear if that's what it was in the beginning.

 

Cheers George 

[BugPowderDust]

1 minute ago, georgehifi said:

The source is the same, so play back errors can only be as good as the original.

 

You can't make a silk purse from a sows ear if that's what it was in the beginning.

 

Cheers George 

George, in this you are assuming that something played back multiple times in a mechanical transport is as reliable as something that has been "bit compared" to validate the rip as being 100% correct.  There is a big difference here.   

[BugPowderDust]

See: http://www.accuraterip.com 

[georgehifi]

 

Like I said you can't make a silk purse from a sows ear if that what it was, if you say you can you believe in "perpetual motion" also, it's a myth.

You may be able to "colour" it "tonally" to sound better for your own system so can tone controls, but you can't improve on the original digital source material 0's and 1's. 

 

The title to this thread "Is a lossless CD rip as good as playing the CD"  

It can be "as good" (never better) if absolutely perfect, but that also impossible

 

Cheers George

Edited September 19, 2022 by georgehifi

[Herbs]

What about the 12inch?

[georgehifi]

56 minutes ago, Herbs said:

What about the 12inch?

 

Now that's a different kettle of fish, most vinyl has not been butchered with compression.

But it has one other big problem of channel separation, the best it can do is <40db through the midrange and almost mono 10db in the bass and highs.

Just look at the Lyra Dorian L&R "channel separation" in the lower graph pics

 

Diogital is 120dB top to bottom.

 

 

Cheers George

 

 

Edited September 19, 2022 by georgehifi

[POV]

@georgehifi I totally get that you are super passionate about compression, but I fail to see what it has to do with this thread.  There is no difference in compression between a CD and a lossless ripped file.