Tube rolling of a Elson Silva Cymer 13e1 Monoblocks (Southern Star SE35)

[dez4096]

Hi,

 

I need a little advice on how to tube roll with this amplifier. Have had it for a few years now. My current setup is:

Laptop -> Singxer SU-1 -> HoloSpring Level 3 (Wildism edition) -> Dual monoblocks Cymer 13e1 Southern Star SE35 -> Osborn Titans. 

 

The current tubes are 13e1, JJ ECC99 (gold),   Siemens 12at7wa. 

I've just changed the 13e1 and jj's about 100 hours ago (13e1 seems to only come in one brand and the jj's were changed to the gold pins version (from the original red jj ecc99)

 

I haven't changed the siemens 12at7wa yet. I'm unsure on what to change it to. Does it have to be a 12at7wa or would a 12at7 be a suitable choice?

Budget is around $200 for a pair of NOS, unless there's a remarkable difference with a more expensive pair. 

 

Any recommendations? I'm considering something like this: https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/310219485090?hash=item483a85afa2:g:RckAAOSwGeFdeqCj&frcectupt=true

 

Any thoughts are very much appreciated. 

I love my setup, and in particular love the vocal tone and clarity. I feel that the 12at7wa tubes are due for a change though, as they've had quite a few hours on them. 

 

Thank you!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[georgehifi]

Try a 12bh7 for the driver tube (i loved the rca black plate if you can find them new)in place of the ECC99.

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/295001655108?hash=item44af780744%3Ag%3AxNYAAOSworlijcyr&LH_ItemCondition=1500

 

Try a 12au7 or my fav12**7 a 12ay7 in place of the 12at7.

 

 

 

Cheers George  

Edited July 2, 2022 by georgehifi

[Herbyj]

Why not ask Elson what he recommends?

I'd be cautious because some valves look like they have the same pins & specs but may not be exactly the same, they may draw more current etc.

If you are happy with the sound why not replace the worn out valves with the same thing?

 

 

[xlr8or]

Changing the 12AT7WA/E81CC for a 12AT7/ECC81 is totally fine as these 2 tube types are based on the exact same tube designation and operating parameters. You can do far better than the Siemens 12AT7WA for sound and the ones listed from Langrex UK.

 

I'll look around for you and advise which is the best pair to go for based on what is currently listed. I'm assuming the 12AT7 would be the input tube and therefore the most influential in changing the sound signature.

[dez4096]

Thanks everyone. Appreciate all the advice n guidance. A whole new world for me to learn about.  I'll try contacting elson again too. Couldn't get hold of him last time via email? Anyone have his recent contact details?

[Herbyj]

I've got a pair of the Cymer 13E1 Southern Star amps.

The amps came with a GE 12at7 valve as the input tube. It may be one of the JAN/Military ones.

I haven't felt any need to change it.

Hope this helps.

Herby

[Guest deanB]

Have successfully used Valvo in 2 Cymer amps and Doge monoblocks, seem to be well balanced, not tipped up in the treble like some Euro valves.

 

[dialectically]

If ever you want to sell the cymers - please PM!

[Ihearmusic]

By the way,  there are definitively different makes and variation of the 13e1 out there.

I am looking after a few for a friend. I tested them and I am currently in the process of building a 13e1 SE for him.

[dez4096]

interesting. do you know which 13e1 make/variation is the best?

[Ihearmusic]

21 hours ago, dez4096 said:

interesting. do you know which 13e1 make/variation is the best?

I could not tell you just yet. I have never heard a 13e1 tube amplifier.

Once I have the amp up and running I can compare the different tubes.

[xlr8or]

On 24/07/2022 at 10:55 PM, dez4096 said:

interesting. do you know which 13e1 make/variation is the best?

 

For me it's the mid 1950's STC UK production solid dark grey anode plates. Please see tube 3 to the far right below.

 

Edited July 26, 2022 by xlr8or

[Turning Japanese]

My valve gorilla me my cymer are clipping quite early due to the 12au7 input driver being the wrong type and recommended I move to 12ax7 for better amplification ( there is quite a difference between the tubes spec but he thinks the ax are what the circuit needs) sadly I can’t find any contact details or circuit diagram so left me wondering a bit

[Herbyj]

I'm not sure what you mean?

I have a Cymer 13E1 Southern Star and it came with a 12AT7 & ECC99 as input valves. Elson Silver, the builder of Cymer amps said I could reduce the gain of one of my other Cymer amps by changing the input valve from 12AT7 to a 12AY7.

What are your speakers and preamp?

Cheers

Herby

Edited December 9, 2024 by Herbyj

[xlr8or]

9 hours ago, Turning Japanese said:

My valve gorilla me my cymer are clipping quite early due to the 12au7 input driver being the wrong type and recommended I move to 12ax7 for better amplification ( there is quite a difference between the tubes spec but he thinks the ax are what the circuit needs) sadly I can’t find any contact details or circuit diagram so left me wondering a bit

 

It would be good to clarify which set of SE-35 units you own. Even posting a few photos showing the front end would help. If you can remove the bottom cover and look for tube type descriptors that may be in place around the circuit that would be even better for confirming the tubes that the circuit utilises.

 

The input tube that you're describing should ideally be tuned for the circuit that it has been designed around. 12AU7, 12AY7, 12AT7 and 12AX7 tubes all have different amplification, transconductance and plate resistance values. When using any of these tubes its important to recognise that the circuit has been optimised for using one of these tube types.

 

When you're talking about the driver tubes you may be referring to the ECC99 tube, which is quite limited in tube rolling options.

 

If you're getting break up/distortion/clipping of the signal early chances are the input and/or driver tubes being used are the wrong type. For example, replacing a 12AX7 with a 12AU7 in the input stage can introduce the issue noted above.

Edited December 9, 2024 by xlr8or

[Turning Japanese]

Hi 

 

12at7 is the input valves, I can try new ones but my tech tells me the amp is putting out very low power and the signal breaks up

 

he thinks it should be a 12ax7 from his mapping out of the circuit to give more gain and less dustirtion

 

hes a guitar amp guy but the electronics should be sound as he is very good at what he does

[xlr8or]

4 hours ago, Turning Japanese said:

Hi 

 

12at7 is the input valves, I can try new ones but my tech tells me the amp is putting out very low power and the signal breaks up

 

he thinks it should be a 12ax7 from his mapping out of the circuit to give more gain and less dustirtion

 

hes a guitar amp guy but the electronics should be sound as he is very good at what he does

 

Those are some great looking tube amps you have there. What are the other ones on the top shelf?

 

If your technician has confirmed the input circuitry has been configured around 12AX7 use then proceed with using that tube type with the ECC99 driver tube.

 

Let us know how you go.

Edited December 9, 2024 by xlr8or

[Turning Japanese]

The tubes currently in the amp are M8136 MULLARD. MADE IN ENGLAND. CV4003

 

My pre and phono are Thomas Mayer (each has a separate box for power supply) both of which I purchased before he got mainstream (he now owns Elrog and sells amps costing over £100k so I am lucky to have such great quality stuff for very reasonable cost)

 

i will give a 12ax7 a go but I would really like to contact elson about a circuit diagram and find out more about the monos. I notice he also does them. With 45 drivers

 

thanks

darren

Edited December 9, 2024 by Turning Japanese

[Honreekea]

3 hours ago, Turning Japanese said:

I would really like to contact elson

By all accounts, he's in a nursing home, and his business is closed

[Turning Japanese]

Thought that might be the case, thanks

[Herbyj]

I think the problem is the Mullard input valve. It is the equivalent of a 12au7 which is very low gain.

I would try replacing it with a 12at7 which is much higher gain & the valve the amplifier was designed for.

Herby

[Turning Japanese]

Yep that’s defo the problem, great that you confirm what valve it was designed for so will try a pair of 12at7 to get a bit more volume and hopefully less distortion 

 

cheers

darren

[xlr8or]

On 10/12/2024 at 8:01 AM, Herbyj said:

I think the problem is the Mullard input valve. It is the equivalent of a 12au7 which is very low gain.

I would try replacing it with a 12at7 which is much higher gain & the valve the amplifier was designed for.

Herby

 

Any chance of sharing photos of the internals to see how they compare to the image shared above by @Turning Japanese?

[Herbyj]

Hi

 

I'm away at the moment so can't provide any photos of my amp.

 

Have a look at the internals of the Cymer amp in this review:

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/cymer/3.html

 

It looks very different to the internals of Turning Japanese's amp.

I'm not technically minded but the review amp looks much more crammed with components?

 

Herby

 

[xlr8or]

9 hours ago, Herbyj said:

Hi

 

I'm away at the moment so can't provide any photos of my amp.

 

Have a look at the internals of the Cymer amp in this review:

https://6moons.com/audioreviews/cymer/3.html

 

It looks very different to the internals of Turning Japanese's amp.

I'm not technically minded but the review amp looks much more crammed with components?

 

Herby

 

 

Yes, agreed, it does look different and more crammed. Also, that review is confusing as it suggests you can use a 12AU7, 12AT7 or 12AX7 tube with the ECC99 or 45 version as the driver tube. I'm aware we have clarified it should be a 12AT7/ECC81 tube in use with the ECC99. Plenty of tube rolling options available there, including some really good subs. However, if one is considering subs such as the E180CC and others, the amplification factor should be checked in the tube datasheets to confirm how close it is to 60 mu.

 

It would be good if some other SE-35 owners can also chime in here and post a few photos of the internals.