Sony APM 77W - Vintage Review

[mkaramazov]

I am not a seasoned reviewer. I am usually happy for others to take on the challenge of providing a balanced perspective on gear. This is, in part, because I don’t have a balanced perspective. I have for years lived with small tube amplifiers and a pair of vintage speakers (http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/27660-vintage-system-in-sydney/). Clinical accuracy hasn’t been interesting to me, I prefer a dry bass, and would happily rather live without bass than put up with bloat and swell. I am a fan of a fast liquid midband, which has usually been my drawcard. I prefer a warm “live†sound rather than something that is clinically accurate but sterile. Hence for loud speakers I have lived with a pair of Goodmans Axiom 301 drivers and DLM-2 Compression drivers – which in combination with a small EL84 based single ended amp has given me warmth, speed and a midband to die for, even if they sacrifice much at the frequency extremes.

 

But that does not mean I am not open to other ways to experience hifi. I have always had a soft spot for high end Japanese gear from the 70s and 80s. This is at least in part because I am fascinated by Japanese engineering in this period, which seemed quite over the top in a way which is unlikely to be repeated. So many of the high end products that were made at that time were completely unseen in the West, and hence there is a real element of curiosity about how gear from this period sounds – part of the joy of collecting this stuff. I confess also that this obsession has been driven by a limited budget. If I had the cash to try out big JBLs, Tannoys and Quads I would. However I don’t have that kind of money. Thankfully, up until the last few years, Japanese high end has remained absurdly good value for money. My first system, 20 years ago, included a pair of Yamaha NS 500 speakers (a baby NS1000 with Beryllium tweeters) and a big Luxman prepower, a combination which I had purchased together for less than $500 in the early 1990s. I remember this system would sound substantially better than most mid range systems out there; it probably still would. Of course today, Luxman, Yamaha NS 1000s, Technics SP 10s, Sony ES amplifiers etc are worth big money, as people start to appreciate the quality of their engineering and years of snobbery from the hifi fraternity have slowly been overcome. However, despite the price rises, there remain hidden gems. The relative rarity of some models means that few people actually know what some gear sounds like, and there are not many reviews available on the internet, which has an impact on how much people are willing to spend on unknown gear. So while NS1000s are slowly edging out of sight price wise, there are  bargains are still out there. For example, just a couple of weeks ago, a pair of Technics SB M1 Monitors (http://www.thevintageknob.org/technics-SB-M1.html) sold for under $500 in Sydney – surely a bargain price for an 85kg high end speaker from  Japan’s glory days.

 

This brings me to the subject of this review – the Sony APM 77W I have recently acquired. I have decided to review these rare beasts because of a lack of information available out there on how they sound. These speakers are certainly a rare sight in Australia. These speakers were not exactly high volume, and many were probably disposed of due to the lack of availability of speaker surrounds (something which has since changed since a Russian manufacturer has started selling remanufactured surrounds). Mine arrived however in perfect working order, surrounds intact. There is a bit of information available on the web on the philosophy behind the Sony Accurate Pistonic Motion (APM) concept, which seems to be somewhere halfway between a planar and a conventional cone design – I won’t go into the technicalities here.  Its fair to say that history has not been kind to the Sony APM concept. The bottom line is that most people’s experience of square drivers has been underwhelming, as Sony and other manufacturers put square drivers in a range of cheap devices – from TVs to boom boxes – during the 80s, thus undermining the quality of the engineering that lay behind the originals. However the higher end Sony APM’s have quite a cult following, including the super rare monitors (the APM 8, 6 and 4), the early “mid†range models (77w, 55W, 33W) and the ES range (the 66ES, 22ES, 10ES etc). My first taste of a decent APM speaker was a pair of APM 10ES speakers I picked up about 10 years ago – I was immediately impressed by the mid range transparency, particularly the way in which the speakers rendered piano and voices. This led to experimenting with a few different models – I had a pair of huge 66ES standmounts, which sadly were not fully functional, and a pair of 22ES speakers which sound wonderful too.

 

The APM 77W (http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-APM-77.html) sits just below the APM 8, 6 and 4 monitors. It shares the same planar drivers as the APM 4, however does not have the amazing curved cabinets of the high end models. However at 32kg a piece, these are substantial speakers, and unlike the later ES branded models, the 77W shares with the high end APMs an amazing woofer activated by no less than 4 coils/ pistons.  My model also has the original Sony stands, which are substantially built and easily allow the listener to pivot the speaker towards the listening position. With stands they stand almost 90cms tall, 40cms wide and 3cm deep, so these are not small.

 

Obviously I couldn’t run these speakers off my flea powered valve amp, even if their 6 Ohm 90db / 1w / 1m sensitivity sounds promising, at least on paper, for valve amplification. (Indeed, as with many high end Japanese speakers, valve amplification is often recommended to tame the potentially strident treble). I have been using them with a big Onkyo A 701D, another rare piece of Japanese engineering: this is a substantially built 1980s 105w per channel integrated amplifier, which features an in built 18bit DAC. The Onkyo is incredibly transparent, and produces a tight, controlled sound, although in my experience it is a bit dry in its presentation. In my opinion the Onkyo’s phono stage is ordinary, so I have bypassed this for listening, relying on a Yaqin MS 12B for phono amplification (retubed with Brimar and RCA valves). The Thorens 124 / SM3012 / AT32E is having a holiday while I do some maintenance on it, so I am using my Harman Kardon ST7 with Audio Technica AT 150ti cartridge installed – a combination that I think sounds quite wonderful. On CD I have a classic Sony CPD-X7ESD, which matches the high end Japanese aesthetic of the rest of the system perfectly. I am also listening to high res files through an E-MU 1212M soundcard.

 

So how does it sound? Bloody marvellous. Remember that I am normally used to a system that prioritises mid range warmth over everything else. However I have found myself quite transfixed by the quality of the sounds produced by the big Sonys. Vinyl in particular seems to be a revelation, although high res files are also amazing.

 

I am very impressed by the bass, which is dry and restrained – barely a hint of swell happening here. When there is bass in the recording the speakers deliver:  and it sounds tight and organic. When there is no bass in the recording, it just isn’t there. Those big drivers can of course pack some punch, but I am continually impressed by how restrained they are. The mid range has that clarity and transparency that I have associated with the APM sound – its fast, and feels “true to the source†(whatever this phrase might mean within the context of hifi). Voices and acoustic instrumentation don’t sound as beautiful and raw as they do with the big Goodmans, however there seems to be much more accuracy here, and I am hearing much more texture to the midrange. I am loving picking between different voices, and listening to the way a wide palette of details and rythyms meld together. But it is the treble that really amazes me. I was expecting to be ducking for cover as my solid state electronics came into contact with those Sony planar tweeters; however the treble has been an absolute joy – clear, shimmering, detailed without being strident. This works beautifully for acoustic music of course, however I have been really enjoying 90s grunge rock – the first Smashing Pumpkins album, “Gish,†and PJ Harvey’s debut “Dry,†both have strong high frequency content, but sound absolutely thrilling (rather than painful ) through these monitors. The treble becomes all the more insightful when you adjust your listening position – I found swivelling the speakers inward towards the listening position really helped.

 

The few user comments available on the net suggest that the Sony APM 77W is capable of handling lots of power, and playing loud without distortion. This indeed has been my impression of them – they seem to remain hugely transparent at high volumes. Perhaps the closest thing I can think of are the headphones I use, an old pair of Audio Technica AT 706 electret headphones, which sound remarkably comparable to these speakers in terms of their speed and clarity at high volumes. How about driver integration? Well its ok; quite good I think.  I am used to listening to the Goodmans Axiom 301, which is a point source, so I am used to enjoying a fairly seamless sound, within the limits of that driver. The Sony APMs mostly work seamlessly, but don’t seem as smooth in this regard, which I guess is to be expected.

 

So, will I keep them? I really miss the live quality of my old Goodmans – jazz in particular sounds amazing through the valve system, and I have never quite heard a set of speakers make Louis Armstrong magically appear in my room the way the Goodmans and my little valve amp do. However I have no intention of letting these Sony APM 77ws go. For lots of music – pop rock and large scale orchestral music- they clearly surpass my old system. They have made me wonder what else might be possible with different amplification – perhaps a big valve amp, or alternatively high end Class A solid state. Regardless, I predict many years of fun playing around with these, and there would certainly scope for improvements in upgrading the crossover components. A belated thanks to the Sony engineers from the 70s who decided to push the boat out when it came to designing these beauties. 

[Telecine]

Thanks for such a great review.

[Darryl]

Great review.

More entertaining and informative than most of the stuff I read in the mags!!!.

 

Pity you're not in Adelaide.

I have a pair of these

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-SS-G333ES.html

and a pair of these

http://www.thevintageknob.org/sony-SS-G7a.html

 

It would be interesting to compare the different Sonys.

[mkaramazov]

Thank you Telecine and Darryl!

 

Darryl, that is a shame I am not in Adelaide - I would love to be able to hear how they compare to the G333ES and G7! I see you have a fair bit of sony gear, very impressive. 

 

BTW, I have an 80s Sony Australia brochure which features, amongst other things your G333ES - PM me if you would like a scan. 

[Darryl]

Is that the one with "AC-C-0724KPDT8905P1" at the bottom of the back cover?.

 

If so, I've got one of those, thanks.

 

If not, let me know and I'd love a copy.

 

Cheers,

Darryl.

[mkaramazov]

Ahhh yes, that is the one Darryl. Sounds like you are well stocked!

[Sam Z]

I have a pair of the APM-33Ws, the smaller version of these and they've been a lot of fun. They're not great, but not bad. I'd be curious to hear the 77s, they ought to be quite a step up as they were three times the price when new. The 77s have real APM woofers—a pinnacle of extravagant Japanese audio design. Four separate voice coils/pistons on one woofer is outrageous and god help you if you ever need to repair them. The woofers in the 33s are more conventional, although still a little bonkers.

 

I wonder how many 77s Sony Oz imported. Maybe not many, they always had trouble selling speakers in the mid–high end. A few years before the APMs they had the SS-G7s, no-one wanted them and they ended up selling most of them to the Sydney Entertainment Centre for peanuts.

 

How do the 77s compare to the 66ES—or did you never have the 66s working?

 

P.S. I'd love to see a scan of that Sony brochure...

Edited August 1, 2013 by Sam Z

[mkaramazov]

Sam Z: Ahhh, I would be curious to hear the APM-33Ws too. I can't really say how it compares, as I have never heard the APM-33W or APM-55W, although I can say that the 77s hands down outclasses the APM 20ES and 22ES, both of which I have spent time with. I do quite like the controlled bass the 77Ws woofers produce - so those 4 voice coils / pistons seem to be doing the trick. But as you say, I can't imagine what repairs look like. 

 

Sadly I never heard the APM 66ES is full flight. Both tweeters on mine were cooked, and I ended up selling them hastily prior to a house move before I had a chance to replace the tweeters. But I had rigged up some alternative tweeters, and the speakers sounded great, although the bass was nowhere as controlled as the 77s. (But I can't really verify if the 66ES I had was a decent sample of what this speaker might be capable of).  BTW, I believe the APM 66ES possessed vapor deposited diamond tweeters - this is long before B&W arrived on the scene with them - which extended out to 45khz ( http://www.audio-heritage.jp/SONY-ESPRIT/speaker/apm-66es.html).

 

Sony never knew how to market their higher end gear! I didn't know that about the Australian G7s. I had been looking for a pair of APM 77Ws for a long time - (more than 5 years?). I suspect there aren't many in Oz.

 

PM me if you want a scan of the brochure, I will try to get to this in the next week or so... 

[Sam Z]

Yeah Sony Australia were pretty bad in that regard, they generally had high prices on their gear (especially their speakers), didn't discount and just didn't market them properly. In a culture distrustful of Japanese speakers (often rightly so) they should have been enticing new customers. Lots of Sony distributors around the world were just as arrogant ann inept, and suffered the same problems because of it. It works fine when your high-end products are good, i.e. most VFET and ES gear, but when the products are just OK and the competition is hot, not so much.

 

The story I heard from an old Sony rep is that on a visit to Japan, the Sony JP folks plied the Sony Oz managers with enough sake to agree to order something like 20 or more pairs of G7s, at full price. When they arrived they put a sticker price of $3K+ on them, which back then was basically the price of a small car. And they weren't even that good in the first place. Even if you were willing to give Japanese speakers a shot you could've bought NS1000s, which were cheaper, sounded better and had a solid reputation. So most just sat around in the warehouse for years.

 

The Sydney Entertainment Centre story checks out because a few years back when living in Sydney, I bought a pair of rough G7s from a guy in Nowra. He said he bought them from an auction house in the early 90's where they had heaps of the same old Sony monsters for sale—and yes, it was a Sydney Entertainment Centre clearance lot. He and his friend each bought a pair for about 100 bucks or so. He also mentioned his friend blew a tweeter in his almost immediately (basically a monthly occurrence for G7 owners) and he just threw them out!

 

If you get the chance to scan it, can you upload the brochure to hifiengine.com? More people will enjoy it that way. That site's a great repository of brochures and manuals.

Edited August 3, 2013 by Sam Z

[mkaramazov]

Fascinating story. Weirdly a number of years ago I nearly bought a pair of G7s from someone in Nowra. In the end I decided I had no space for the monsters, but I was very curious how they would sound - I wasn't aware they had fragile tweeters. 

 

Great idea on the brochure - i had been meaning to upload some stuff there. I have a few treasures around....

[Sam Z]

Well it's probably the same pair, they were on ebay for something like $150 bucks if I remember correctly. They were quite a mess, once I got there I realised they were even worse than the small blurry photos let on. They were dirty, had ratty cabinets with some missing veneer, the grilles had holes in them, they had cheap non-original tweeters which were just siliconed onto the baffle, and one midrange driver was dead. Of course he advertised them in good working order! But I'd driven all the way from Sydney so I still bought them; what's the opposite of sour grapes—sweet lemons? I cleaned them up a bit and sourced some working original tweeters and a midrange driver at ridiculous expense and used them daily in my small KX apartment for a while, annoying my neighbours. Then when I moved out I hastily sold them to a very nice uni student who makes electronic music, he still has them and cherishes them. He quickly blew a precious tweeter of course!

They were OK speakers, although they did sound a bit old-fashioned overall and had a flabby bass. I don't know if I just got the positioning such but even in my small room they threw a massive soundstage, not an articulate one, just a wide one. So they were a lot of fun but not brilliant speakers to be honest. Your 77s probably sound better although I have no basis on which to judge that.

This hi-fi nerd would love to see your brochure scans...

Edited August 4, 2013 by Sam Z

[mkaramazov]

As ever it seems with ebay - caveat emptor. Yes that pair of G7s sound familiar. I think I emailed the seller about coming and having a listen, but in the end decided not to pursue it (perhaps in part because of the blurry pictures, and because I was thinking about carrying them up the stairs to my apartment!). Amazed that you sourced the drivers - that must have been quite an effort.

 

The G7s must have really annoyed the neighbours - I can see that potential. I guess it would be hard to get a picture on the potential of the G7, particularly if they were used in a specific context (small room etc), although it seems like lots of speakers from that period were all about big warm indefinite bass, and the G7 certainly appears to fit the template for a 70s speaker in that regard. But I find bass is really such a taste thing- as I say in my review, I have a low tolerance for bass boom,; but lots of people I know can't understand this stance. All part of what makes hifi interesting I guess. 

 

Perhaps Darryl might have thoughts on how the G7s compares with the G333ES, and some impressions on the sound? I am expecting the G333ES to have a much more modern sound, but although the G333ES really fascinates me, I have never heard a pair. 

 

And I will get on to that brochure soon! 

[Darryl]

Can do.

Give me a bit of time to connect them both up and refresh my memory.

I can also throw in the Sony APM22ES MKII and the Yamaha NS1000M if I'm particulrly inspired!!!.

 

I have the Sony SS-G7a though, the update. I haven't heard the SS-G7. Although I doubt there would be too much difference.

[didier]

interesting read, thanks fellas

[mkaramazov]

Darryl: Fantastic. Look forward to hearing your thoughts, particularly on how the NS1000M compares if you are able to pull that off.

 

Curious too on your thoughts on the APM 22ES II.

[ufo]

I have a pair of the APM-33Ws, the smaller version of these and they've been a lot of fun. They're not great, but not bad. I'd be curious to hear the 77s, they ought to be quite a step up as they were three times the price when new. The 77s have real APM woofers—a pinnacle of extravagant Japanese audio design. Four separate voice coils/pistons on one woofer is outrageous and god help you if you ever need to repair them. The woofers in the 33s are more conventional, although still a little bonkers.

 

I wonder how many 77s Sony Oz imported. Maybe not many, they always had trouble selling speakers in the mid–high end. A few years before the APMs they had the SS-G7s, no-one wanted them and they ended up selling most of them to the Sydney Entertainment Centre for peanuts.

 

How do the 77s compare to the 66ES—or did you never have the 66s working?

 

P.S. I'd love to see a scan of that Sony brochure...

I have just become a member of the forum and found this post. I also have a pair of APM-33Ws that I bought in US back in 1986. I loved them to the bits, always regretted that I didn't buy 55s or 77s.

Unfortunately rubber menbranes around the bass speaker fell apart in 1999 and not being able to replace them that time, I pulled out the bass sepakers and chucked them. Converting the square cut-out to round one, I replaced them with some generic 10" woofers I purchased from Jaycar. They still sound good but not as good as original, it is not that accurate and tide anymore, bit more on boomy side but they sound a lot louder because replacement woofers are 4 ohms. Any recommnedation of good 10" woofer that might provide some thing simi;ar to original tide/accurate bass? Highes are as good as new and sound that way too.

[mkaramazov]

I have just become a member of the forum and found this post. I also have a pair of APM-33Ws that I bought in US back in 1986. I loved them to the bits, always regretted that I didn't buy 55s or 77s.

Unfortunately rubber menbranes around the bass speaker fell apart in 1999 and not being able to replace them that time, I pulled out the bass sepakers and chucked them. Converting the square cut-out to round one, I replaced them with some generic 10" woofers I purchased from Jaycar. They still sound good but not as good as original, it is not that accurate and tide anymore, bit more on boomy side but they sound a lot louder because replacement woofers are 4 ohms. Any recommnedation of good 10" woofer that might provide some thing simi;ar to original tide/accurate bass? Highes are as good as new and sound that way too.

 

Nice to hear from another APM owner.

 

Such a shame you threw out the old woofers - you will know that the surrounds are now available for the APM 33 bass drivers. I do see APM 33 woofers occasionally appear internationally on ebay. Whether they would be worth the cost importing (or whether they would fit back into your cabinets anymore) is another matter. 

 

 Others might have suggestions for decent 10 inch woofers!

[ufo]

Nice to hear from another APM owner.

 

Such a shame you threw out the old woofers - you will know that the surrounds are now available for the APM 33 bass drivers. I do see APM 33 woofers occasionally appear internationally on ebay. Whether they would be worth the cost importing (or whether they would fit back into your cabinets anymore) is another matter. 

 

 Others might have suggestions for decent 10 inch woofers!

 

 

 

Yeah, it is a shame that I threw away the original woofers. I actually did hang on to them for couple of years hoping that I might be able to use them again somehow but they got tossed out during a tidy-up enforced by the ruler of the house

You are right even if I found some replacement woofers, they will not fit in to the round cut-off.

[Sam Z]

I say it's time to sell them for the tweeters and find something better. You've already mutilated them and thrown out their most distinctive part; they'd lose their novelty factor with round woofers...