Valve or solid state for a classical music lover

[JohnE]

Hi all,

 

I listen to classical music.  I like to hear the orchestra and it has to have a full 'ballsy' sound (I was a trombone player that's why(. I currently have an avid tt/phono and wilson benesch speakers.  The sound (through current cairn amp) is very clean, smooth, detailed and quite 3D. But, the music is a little lifeless.  So, can I get that sound from valve only?  Which ones? Are there SS amps that will give me that sort of sound?  The problem I have is that I can't audition everything.  Also I know that amp A does not work the same in system B.  So that makes it difficult to take a leap.  Any advice?

 

John

[Grister]

Hi John

 

I listen to about 80% classical but mainly via digital sources. Can you list a few of your favourite recordings? That may give a good indication of the type of sound you are after...

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Hi all,

 

I listen to classical music.  I like to hear the orchestra and it has to have a full 'ballsy' sound (I was a trombone player that's why(. I currently have an avid tt/phono and wilson benesch speakers.  The sound (through current cairn amp) is very clean, smooth, detailed and quite 3D. But, the music is a little lifeless.  So, can I get that sound from valve only?  Which ones? Are there SS amps that will give me that sort of sound?  The problem I have is that I can't audition everything.  Also I know that amp A does not work the same in system B.  So that makes it difficult to take a leap.  Any advice?

 

John

 

Sadly, the very best way to choose is to select from a range of different products, auditioned using your own speakers. MY preference and the preference of most musicians, IME, is to locate a low or zero global NFB design, whether it be valve or SS. Without knowing which model speaker you have, nor it's impedance characteristic, it is difficult to advise further. In general terms, a speaker which exhibits a difficult load impedance is better mated with a high current SS amp, or a push pull triode amp.

[Hugh Dean]

Hi John,

 

The seminal questions.......  a very good tube or SS would suit, and in my view should be at least 35W from Class AB tube or 100W from Class AB SS.

 

Try every thing you can BEFORE you buy.

 

Cheers,

 

Hugh

[JohnE]

Hi John

I listen to about 80% classical but mainly via digital sources. Can you list a few of your favourite recordings? That may give a good indication of the type of sound you are after...

[JohnE]

Thanks all. 

 

Grister, 

 

I listen to large classical works mostly -say Stravinsky, Ravel, Holst, Grainger.  String work, say Vaughn Williams, Delius. 

 

Zaphod, 

 

Speakers are Square two.  Impedance is 6ohm nominal (4ohm min).  Sensitivity of 87db.

 

I had thought of moon and bryston for SS and ayon or Audio Research for valves.  Probably looking at integrated as price keeps on climbing!

[pulinap]

With 87db sensitivity low output SET are out of question (IMHO). 

 

Perhaps a valve preamp with a solid state power amp?

 

You might be able to borrow few amps from SNA member here? 

[thoglette]

With 87db sensitivity low output SET are out of question (IMHO). 

 

Perhaps a valve preamp with a solid state power amp?

 

You might be able to borrow few amps from SNA member here? 

+1.   87db (probably @2V not 1W) and 4ohm calls for at least 50w and plenty of current.    The usual suspects will get named (ME, AKSA,,,,,,) and, if you can, auditioning is the way to go.

[GregWormald]

What's been said above.

 

Unfortunately the only way to find what works is to audition.

 

A number of years ago I brought home 4 different pre/amp combos for the weekend. A couple worked OK, one very highly reviewed set made me feel so physically ill at the mess it made of the music that I had to turn it off within minutes. The last kept me up listening long past my bed time. I bought it.

 

Enjoy the trip!

 

Greg

[henry218]

which wilson benesch?

like what zaph said, impedance characteristic is importan to determined min typical amp.

[JohnE]

Thanks for the thoughts gentlemen.  The impedance of the WB square 2 is 6ohms with 4 as a min. I noticed with valve amps, that it is either 4 or 8.  Does that mean that I will need a higher powered amp at 4 to drive with WBs?  

 

Greg, I too have felt sick after hearing a 'highly reviewed' amp at home.  I will have to get a few types (a couple of higher powered valves and ss) and play around at home.  But I can't listen to everything.

[Grister]

Can someone help me out with a question I have about impedance/watts per channel balance?

 

I have a pair of Magnepan 1.7s which I understand have an impedance of 4ohm with a dip down to 2. I was running an amp (Dussun V8i) that specs said it fed 500 wpc into 4 ohms and it powered the speakers fine. Then I switched to a Quasimodo which only feeds 50 wpc into 4ohm and it's doing a superb job on the Maggies. I notice no drop in volume (by that I mean I don't seem to have to 'push' this amp significantly harder than the Dussun) and the music has amazing detail with quicksilver speed. But if I understand the suggestions above right this amp shouldn't work well on the Maggies - or have I missed something?

Edited July 27, 2013 by Grister

[analog brother]

gryphon diablo

[Briz Vegas]

That's why they say you need to audition.

I was running a 300 watt into 4 ohm SS CJ amp into my 4 ohm rated Vivids. I tried a 70 watt valve amp ( CJ LP 70s ) and its now permanent in my system. If you read about my speakers you find that although its a 4 ohm load its designed to be amp friendly. I also have 70 quality watts on tap, we all know that ratings are only part of the equation.

I would not say my system is ideal for large scale classical, not at orchestra pit volumes anyway, it's more than adequate for more modest volumes and brilliant on some large scale material. It's the best I have owned in that regard but there is no substitute for big speakers if you need your system to shift vast mounts of air.

Have you thought about headphones as an alternative. They are a very immersive sound experience and may be a better solution than a pair of Wilson Maxx or similar. Large high quality speakers are expensive.

I have often heard it said that CD is better for classical. That may be true, or not. I only have a proper digital front end.

on a related matter, I was surprised how much bigger my system sounded when I upgraded my source with a beefy external power supply. Modest sized speakers or not, I was very pleased with Beethoven's ninth played via the Naim DAC/XPS2 DR. Sounded amazing, and much improved compared to the sound without the extra box ( bigger, more detail definition and natural presentation). Speakers really are just one part of the picture, unfortunately.

[JohnE]

Thanks Briz.

 

No trouble with size, but the timbre is a little thin -not rich enough.  Someone else mentioned the naim.  So might try that.  

 

Analog brother,

 

I had heard the gryphon for a short audition.  Very nice amp but very expensive.  I might give that a go too here at Tivoli.  

 

The only way to do this is find a few amps that should work and try them at home. 

 

Thanks boys

[muzzagruzz]

Try Krispy Cables for an in-home demo - if you're in Sydney. CP is very helpful. He has Esoteric gear that might suit.

[thoglette]

Can someone help me out with a question I have about impedance/watts per channel balance?

<snip>... this amp shouldn't work well on the Maggies - or have I missed something?

It's a complex problem (sorry about the pun).   According to Stereophile, the Maggies are relatively well behaved (+/- 25 degrees) for most of the range, with a wiggle 'round 1K.    Which isn't too hard to drive.

 

Unlike the example on Pg6 of measuring speakers from sterophile below.  Ugly - nominal 8 ohm load, drops below 3ohm swings +/-45 degrees.  And some nasty resonances around 150;300 and 450Hz to boot.  

[Grister]

Thanks for your assistance. Does the ratio of the size of an amp's transformer to watts per channel have any relevance?

[bhobba]

Hey Grister

 

Exactly how an amp sounds in a given situation, and indeed what makes an amp sound the way it does is a very complex issue.  Bob Carver had a challenge to make his amp sound the same as any other amp:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/carver-challenge

 

He did it but the parameters he had to tweak to do it was horrendous - as you can see if you read the article.

 

Really there is only one way to determine if an amp sounds good in a given situation - suck it and see.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited July 29, 2013 by bhobba

[bhobba]

Hi John

 

Being a manufacturer Hugh (AKSA) can't really tout his own product.  But I have his new NAKSA 80 in my system at the moment.  Very good on all music.  I would give it a try.  You are in Victoria which is where Hugh is.  Send him a note and its quite possible an audition can be arranged.  His amp is anything but dry - its very very musical.  Give it a go and post what you think.  Depending on that I have a few other suggestions as well.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Grister]

Thanks for your thoughts re my post Bill. You are right of course about just having to give it a go.

 

Have you heard one of Richard McDonalds's latest Quasimodo design's? I think he and Hugh know each other. I've been so impressed with the 25wpc (8ohm) that I have just ordered a 40wpc amp so I can swap them around in my two systems. Richard is arranging a custom-built, resin filled 300VA transformer to go into the new one.

[thoglette]

Does the ratio of the size of an amp's transformer to watts per channel have any relevance?

Yes, to a point.  Transformers are expensive so trimming specifications (ie allowing the use of a smaller one) was commonly done.  Now, like steaks, size does not equal quality.

[Grister]

Hi again John

 

You mentioned you like Stravinsky. Do you only listen to vinyl? I ask this because the Praga lablel recently released a superb collection of his music on a double Hybrid SACD set. Performers include the Czech Philharmonic and Tokyo Sting Qrt.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Thanks for your assistance. Does the ratio of the size of an amp's transformer to watts per channel have any relevance?

 

Yes, though that is not the only factor.

[firefly0071]

Yes, though that is not the only factor.

 

 

Sometimes I think it is easier to just hand over the cash and pay Zaphod a consultancy fee to get the right equipment.