Bill's Cables - Further Action and Recourse Procedure

[parrasaw]

***  IMPORTANT INFORMATION FOR PEOPLE WHO ORDERED GOODS FROM "BILL'S CABLES", WHO DID NOT RECEIVE THE GOODS WHICH THEY ORDERED, WHO REQUESTED A REFUND OF MONEY FOR THOSE GOODS, AND WHO HAVE NOT RECEIVED THE REFUND. WHICH THEY REQUESTED.  ***

 

It is now very clear that a number of SNA members (and perhaps non members) who placed orders with Bill's Cables have never received the goods which they ordered.

It is also clear that a number of people requested refunds for the undelivered goods, and while a good few received their refunds (largely because of the efforts of Marc), there are other members who have not received refunds even after many months, and multiple requests for such.

 

**In addition there are a large number of members who received goods from Bill which did not match the description of the product which they ordered(in many cases the goods supplied were of much lower quality etc).

Still more people received goods which were unsafe, including expensive electrical cables which were not tested and tagged (as they had been assured would be the case. In at least one case that I am aware about, the cable was "fried". **

 

*** ALL of these people have recourse to taking action with the Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal (QCAT). Taking such action is inexpensive (especially compared to the losses which were incurred by many people).  Such action is time effective  - no more than 1-2 hours to complete all aspects of the Application process. The process is quite easy to follow, and I offer my assistance to any (all) people who might wish to take this path - Marc and I have developed and discussed the following strategy and he has approved my looking after this matter from now on  (on his behalf and on behalf of affected members), while he focusses on other SNA matters. I will of course be keeping him fully informed about all actions, progress etc.***

 

Before detailing important information which members will need to know if they decide to apply to QCAT for a remedy to the issue,  members need to be assured that they can rely on me to respect their privacy, both in relation to their personal information, and in relation to any application/claim which they may make.

The remaining information is in point form, to assist members who are directly affected by this issue, should they wish to discuss with me/seek additional information from me about anything which is detailed below. 

 

Right at the start may I emphasise one important point:

 

Please do NOT (repeat NOT) PM Marc about any of the following. If you were personally affected by this matter, please feel free to PM me (as indicated below). If you are not affected personally but have a really helpful suggestion to make, which you think will significantly improve the process which will be detailed below, you may also PM me (and if your suggestion is really helpful it will be implemented and your thoughts will be appreciated). 

However, as I think members will appreciate, I have put my hand up for a little bit of work for the next few weeks, and I would like to focus on progressing the matter for those members  are actually affected financially, and who may wish to take action as per the detailed section below, rather than responding to PMs from people who are not directly financially affected.

 

THE PROCESS:    

1. "Bill" lives in Queensland, and was conducting his business there.

 For the purpose of the following, it is actually irrelevant whether or not he was a registered business with an ACN or ABN. He was acting as a "trader" as defined in the relevant Act.

2. Bill took a significant number of orders from people all around Australia for which the ordered goods were not supplied.  For a significant number of people, refunds of payments which were made to him were not returned to those people, despite numerous requests being made.

Others were supplied with goods which did not match what they ordered, while others received faulty goods.

The remedies which are available through QCAT can be sought by ANY/ALL of those people, no matter which State or Territory in which they live.

3. The matters which have arisen are a minor civil dispute (as defined in the Act), more specifically, a Consumer and Trader dispute.

4. The fees which are levied for an Application to QCAT to resolve the matter, are based upon the cost /value of the goods in question. The fees are: 

* not more than $500.......$27.90

* More than $500, but not more than $1,000...........$71.65 

* More than $1,000, but not more than $10,000.........$127.50

* More than $10,000.......$358.00

5. The only additional costs which would be incurred by those who decide to use this method to attempt a resolution of their issue, would be the cost of some photocopying (estimate perhaps up to $10-12 maximum per person, cost of sending 2 Registered Envelopes (variable cost according to weight). That's it.

6. The Form which is used is Form 1 on the QCAT website "Application for civil dispute - consumer/trader dispute; property damage caused by a motor vehicle". 

Form 1 is designed to be clear and easy to follow. 20-30 minutes work perhaps, (less for some people) to complete.

Some important information would also need to be attached e.g. a copy of the  order which was placed with Bill, copy of payment and payment method used, copies of correspondence undertaken when seeking a refund of money from Bill etc. For members (and others) who are ACTUALLY affected, I will assist them in more detail, should they so request.

7. On Form 1:

* Part A, "Dispute details" ........tick "Goods"

* Part B, Applicant's details

* Part C Respondent's details: 

For those who are actually lodging Form 1 (Application for minor civil dispute), you will need to complete every required section in Part C, including the respondent's (Bill'S) Name, Postal Address, and contact details

If you still have ALL of the information which is required to complete this Part, that's good.

However, I am aware of at least 2 different mobile numbers which have been used by Bill. If you still have the number which he was using when you dealt with him, it should be fine to include such (perhaps with a little attached note that this was the number which he was using at the time of your interaction. If you no longer have that number PM me for his number (as supplied to me by Marc), and I will send it to you.

This information MUST be supplied.

For any members who do NOT have ALL of this information, I prefer to send that to you by reply PM, rather than post it here - Privacy issues.

If any applicants wish to check their information in this regard against that which has been provided to me - please PM me.

* Part D,  "General Dispute Details."...Tick the appropriate spot for your situation, AND tick "payment of the filing fee for this application" 

* Part E,  "What are the reasons the order/s should be made?"  Complete this in enough detail, as is needed by you to make your issue clear.

Make sure that you include all relevant documents (as is requested on Form 1).

Please see also point 11 below.

* Part F "Assistance at the Tribunal Hearing".   If you are one of Bill's customers who live outside of Queensland, you can tick "Other" at this point, and in the section under that, request to appear at the Tribunal Hearing by remote conferencing (method such as Zoom etc, as determined by the Tribunal, because you live out of state.

* The Checklist etc on page 5 is all easy to complete.

* Please carefully read and follow all of the 2 pages of Instructions which complete Form 1., especially in regard to completing from Part A  up until, and including the Checklist.

NB:  Please note the critical instructions for "Lodging your application form" , "Giving copies to the respondent" , "Providing evidence", "Fees"  etc.

8. I am happy to assist where necessary with this process - if you would like to discuss any aspect of the above, while you are undertaking the matter, PM me, I will send you my mobile number, and we can spend 15-20 minutes on the phone.

9. If an error is made, or something is left out, the Application would be returned to the applicant anyway, so that the "correction" can be made, and the Application can be resubmitted. Better still is to avoid this occurring

10. Once an Application is accepted/approved and stamped a stamped copy is then sent back to the applicant who then has 7 days to send that document to the respondent (in this case Bill). This process is detailed on the "Instructions for Completing Form 1" pages.

Please note: all Applicants should read the section on the QCAT website entitled "Serving applications and documents".

 

** If you are an affected person, you now have sufficient information to make an informed decision about whether you wish to use QCAT to seek a resolution of the matter, and that will be your choice alone to make. For those who choose to take the course of action, and for those who are just interested in learning more about the process, please read on. ***

 

11. QCAT will offer applicants and  Bill the opportunity to settle the matter via Mediation and Conciliation. 

Most of you have made significant efforts to have your concerns resolved. Marc has made significant efforts on behalf of many on numerous occasions, and I would suggest that you make very clear in Part E of Form 1,  the efforts which  you have made to get your concerns resolved.

12. If Mediation/Conciliation is unsuccessful, the matter will go to a Tribunal Hearing.

13. As noted above, many of the people to whom Bill has not supplied goods or a refund of their money, or for whom he has supplied goods which did not match the description, or which were not fit for purpose do not live in Queensland.

***. The Act allows for such people to attend the Tribunal Hearing via electronic media/remote attendance, and an application will be made for such to occur. ***

14. The Act also allows an application to be made via Form 40 "seeking a direction" that ALL of the Applicants and Application which might be lodged in this matter be dealt with at/by the one Tribunal. Such an application will be made, so it is probably worth other applicants writing in Part E (Form 1) that they know a Form 40 application is to be lodged, and that you request that your matter be dealt with accordingly.

15. I have identified some 11 people from the thread who I suspect/believe  may be directly financially affected in this matter.

This week, I will PM those people to let them know about this posting, and after that they can decide whether they want to avail themselves of the opportunity detailed above.

I suspect that there are greater numbers than these 11 people.

 

**Please remember - please PM me, and NOT Marc, about this any of the above.**

 

16. Please note: The process proposed above is NOT a "class action". It will be an action taken by a number of individual applicants to have a matter determined by QCAT in a Tribunal Hearing. An important distinction.

17. When I originally posted this material several days ago, I suggested that one last effort might be made to seek a settlement of all known cases with Bill, before affected people lodge their Form 1 Applications with QCAT.

I am no longer of this view - affected parties have already made significant efforts to get their concerns resolved without having to resort to making applications to QCAT.

Furthermore, if QCAT determines that Mediation and Conciliation should be attempted before a Tribunal Hearing will occur, then any "final" attempt to sort things with Bill after all of this time is essentially of little practical use.

18. I am aware that several members are now ready to lodge their Form 1, but because they are "team players" they were prepared to hold off for a short while while others are getting organised.

I think that those members, once they have done all of the checks to ensure that they have all of their ducks in a row, should feel free to lodge their Applications to QCAT whenever they like. 

 

** Remember, ALL parties who have bee disadvantaged in their dealings with Bill have a right to take action as detailed above, if they so wish (so long as their individual claim against him does not exceed $25,000.  It doesn't matter how you paid your money to Bill (cash/cheque/bank transfer/ PayPal f/f etc).  All you need is proof of payment.

 

One cannot predict the outcome of a Tribunal hearing. With appropriate care in each Application, it will not be difficult to prove that monies were paid/that goods were not supplied/that a refund was requested/that such refunds were not paid.

For people who received goods which did not meet the description which you were given when you ordered the goods, your claims are just as legitimate, but you will need to provide sufficient information to establish such.

For those who ordered electrical cables for which you were told that the cables would be tested and tagged (but such did not occur), make that very clear, and make clear your concern that the cables appear to have been made by someone who did not hold the appropriate licence/certification, withe result that many cables are not only faulty, bur dangerous.

Such people have every right to lodge an application to have their money refunded rather than spending additional money having such cables repaired/tested/tagged by someone else.

 

It is possible that the respondent (Bill) might claim that he cannot presently pay back the money.

Should such a claim be made he would have to provide proof that his claim was legitimate etc, and any attempt to "put one over" the Tribunal in this type of respect carries appropriate penalties.

 

I appreciate that this is a fair bit of information to read and digest. A considerable number of hours have been devoted to a careful study of the Act, the QCAT website , and in discussion with QCAT staff to get to this point, in the hope that consumers who were customers of Bill and who have not received refunds of money for goods which were not supplied, may have a cost effective and relatively simple opportunity of seeking redress about their concerns.

 

Finally, remember that I am available to discuss Form 1 etc with you if you are thinking of lodging such.

PM me if you wish, and I will provide my mobile number to enable a more efficient. speedy communication.

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by parrasaw
Updated information, better description of the process of lodging QCAT applications

[Marc]

Thank you @parrasaw - we now have a clear plan of attack that is the best approach to achieving any sort of reasonable outcome from this situation. Paul has already invested much time into this, far more than I could ever have hoped to, and I am geniunely appreciative of his desire to serve the StereoNET community, a very selfless act. 

 

Please note that like the last thread, this one is also on Moderator Approval, meaning all posts must be approved by a moderator before they are viewable by the community. Please do not use this thread to complain about what has happened, or to post anything that is not 100% related to this process.

[LogicprObe]

 

Wow.

Congrats to Paul for putting in the hard yards.

[parrasaw]

I have removed the original content of this posting because it is no longer relevant - please see update to original posting.

The reasons behind the changes will be explained later today

 

 

 

 

Edited June 20, 2022 by parrasaw
Updated information, better description of the process of lodging QCAT applications

[parrasaw]

 

I have removed the material , because it is no longer relevant

 

  

Edited June 20, 2022 by parrasaw
Updated information, better description of the process of lodging QCAT applications

[stinger]

1 hour ago, parrasaw said:

7. People in category 2(c) may find their money is better spent on having an authorised person repair their goods rather than going to QCAT. Several appropriately qualified SNA members have made terrific offers to help in this regard - brilliant! 

 

I fall in this category and wondering if there is a list of members that have offered to help anywhere? I ordered interconnects from Bill that are either noisy or fall apart so they've been a complete write off. 

[The Rock Puppy]

I'm not affected by this, but let me say,  @parrasaw, you are worthy of sainthood !

[parrasaw]

On 19/06/2022 at 9:16 AM, stinger said:

 

I fall in this category and wondering if there is a list of members that have offered to help anywhere? I ordered interconnects from Bill that are either noisy or fall apart so they've been a complete write off. 

Hello there.

Please revisit the thread, because the first post (which started the thread) has been updated.

You, and any others who bought faulty cables (as you have indicated) have the same right as all other affected people to lodge an application with QCAT to have your concern resolved - I am assuming you would seek a refund of your money.

 

Please feel free to PM me (as per the revised first posting) if you wish to discuss your matter in more detail.

 

Best wishes,

Paul.

[parrasaw]

This morning I modified the original posting for several reasons.

I believe that SNA members have the right to expect full transparency about the reasons why this was done:

1. In my original discussions with QCAT officers it was apparent that there was an opportunity to lodge one FORM 1 Application in the names of multiple applicants. This would have enabled reduced fees per applicant, because the total fees would have been based around the numbers of applicants, and the size of the "losses" (individual and total) - the details are a bit more complex, but there were considerable potential savings involved. Such an application would have had a maximum of $25,000 in claims, for the matter to be heard by QCAT.

2.During the third call to QCAT (last Friday), the officer suggested that, because of the unknown, but potential size of the matter and numbers of people involved, affected people should lodge individual applications, and that is what went into the original, first SNA post for this thread.

3. At that point in the conversation however, after I asked a number of other questions which needed clarification, I just didn't ask one really important question "With the change in approach, does the $25,000 maximum apply to the potential total amount involved......or to each individual application?"

4. The answer (as carefully confirmed with QCAT today) is......up to $25,000 per individual application. Therefore my original desire to focus first on those members  who had received neither goods OR a refund, was unnecessary.  Furthermore, a significant number of members who actually received goods are now in possession of unusable (and in some cases unsafe) items, and they are therefore in virtually the same position as those who received neither goods or a refund.

5. So, the situation is ....ANY/ALL members who have been disadvantaged by their dealings with Bill's Cables (no matter what the reason) have rights with QCAT to seek resolution of the matter if they so wish.

6. Full details about the process have now been put into the reworded first post for the thread..

7. I also removed 2 of the later threads which I wrote over the weekend, because, had they been left in place, those two threads would only have confused matters.

8. I wish to acknowledge that, had it not been for a phone call yesterday with one affected member (Shane Stephenson), the matter would likely not have been properly clarified this morning.

During the call, Shane quietly inquired about the $25,000, and whether it applied to the "collective" amount or in fact to each individual application, and we know now it is to EACH individual application.

9. Thank heavens Shane asked the question, and I wish to acknowledge and thank hime for picking up what I had missed. As soon as he asked the question I first thought was "oh crap".  I immediately thanked him and told him about my intention to sort it out with QCAT first thing Monday morning (today) which was done.

10 That is the gist of what has happened, and that is why changes to the thread have been made today.

11. What with all of the other things which have occurred to some people through their dealings with Bill's Cables, I felt an obligation to be completely open and transparent  with all SNA members about the latest developments, and the changes to the thread.

12. I would also like to offer a sincere apology for "stuffing up" that one really important point. Had  I not done so, the questions relating to "when could members who received products which are faulty etc ,hope to receive "justice?" would have been unnecessary

13. To finish off:

* Any/all members (and non-members) who ordered goods which were not supplied, any people who received goods which were other than what they ordered, any people who received goods which were faulty and /or unsafe etc....as one member pointed out in a post to the original (earlier thread on SNA) under Australian Consumer law ALL of you have the right to have the matter  properly addressed  in an appropriate forum. In this matter QCAT provides such a forum, with the benefit that it is cost effective, relatively simple to follow, and will be addressed reasonably quickly.

 

I encourage all affected people to carefully investigate the QCAT option, and decide whether they wish to use it or not.

For those you wish to use it, feel free if you wish to PM me should you wish to discuss anything, particularly the lodging of Forms etc.

Please note particularly, the importance of fully and properly identifying the respondent (Bill/Bill's Cables) and if you have the need for any details about this aspect alone, please contact feel free to me.   

[Marc]

Thanks for your continuing and comprehensive efforts Paul 👍

[parrasaw]

On 19/06/2022 at 9:16 AM, stinger said:

 

I fall in this category and wondering if there is a list of members that have offered to help anywhere? I ordered interconnects from Bill that are either noisy or fall apart so they've been a complete write off. 

I PM'd @stinger  yesterday. He and everyone else with such faulty products, are in a similar position to others who have been affected.  Therefore he too can use the QCAT option, which will involve no further expenses , other than the application fee.

I will look for the name(s) of a couple of people who I think made terrific offers of assistance to others re safety checks and/or repairs, and pass on the names.

[parrasaw]

***  SITUATION UPDATE, AND SOME IMPORTANT INFORMATION.  ***

 

From discussions which I have had with, and from information which has been provided by, members who ordered various products from "Bill's Cables":

 

1. A significant number of people have:

(a) ordered goods which were not made or delivered. Their money has not been returned.

(b) received goods which were substantially different from the description which was given e.g. supposed Western Electric (WE) cables were manufactured from a cheaper, non WE cable.

In many cases these cables were also so poorly made as to be unusable (e.g. a complete lack of any sort of shielding in the cables, leading to EMI/RFI issues, humming etc.

(c) received power cables which were not tested and tagged,  and/or which were made by an unlicensed person, and/or were so poorly made as to be unsafe and unusable. etc. For several customers, this led to fuses being blown in pre-amps, amps, power conditioners, with catastrophic impacts upon equipment (or worse) being avoided in at least one case, only by  the tripping of circuit breakers on the dedicated system line. 

2. All of these, and some other issues experienced by SNA members/consumers constitute  a product or good which has a "major problem", as defined by the ACCC. All people so affected are entitled to a repair, replacement or refund.

3. Some, who asked for a repair, and who sent products to Bill for such, have received neither the repaired products back, or a refund.

4. Others who had the repairs done at their own expense are entitled to lodge a claim for repayment  of their expenses.

5. ALL of those people who are in one or more of the categories in point 1 are entitled to seek 

* a return of their money - 1 (a).

* a refund of their money - 1(b) and (c), subject to a return of the goods to Bill, or

*  a refund of costs of repairs if done by someone other than Bill - 1(c) rather than a refund, if that is their choice.

6. At this stage, for those who have indicated they are definitely, or very likely, intending to lodge applications with QCAT, the total monetary extent of the "problem" exceeds $13,000.

7. From information provided by other members, who are still considering their decision, the figure is likely to approach, or may exceed $20,000, and that is based only upon actual responses from people who have contacted me.

8. Because there are quite a few people who are affected, one well informed member is intending, along with the lodging of his Form 1 Application, to attach a Form 40 seeking a direction that his, and other applications about the same trader which are received within the next 4 weeks or so be detrmined by QCAT at/by the one Tribunal Hearing.

9. As of today, the waiting time between lodging of Applications and a Tribunal Hearing in minor civil disputes - consumer /trader disputes (such as this matter) is 4-12 weeks, during which mediation would be attempted.

10. The QCAT website provides really good information to all of us about:

* Matter types - see Consumer & Trader

* Application to hearing

* Going to the Tribunal, including simple instructions for those who will wish to attend by remote conferencing or telephone - easy to follow instructions for everyone who lives outside of the Brisbane area and especially those who live interstate.

* Decisions - including enforcing a QCAT decision. ( NB see point 13 below!!)

* Resources - various, including Forms etc.

11. Any affected member can withdraw his/her application, at any time prior to the final hearing and determination.

12. Without attempting to predict what a Tribunal might decide, the documented evidence in the applications which will be brought to the Tribunal is so clear cut, and in every case it will be supported by extensive documentation/proof which will support the ".......Reasons The Order/s Should Be Made?" ( in Part E on Form 1)......... there is every good reason to expect that members should be granted the Orders which they are seeking (return of monies/refund of monies etc) 

 

**  13.  I am going to expand upon point 10, section entitled Decisions, because not only should all of us be fully aware of the following, but also because a request was made to me by an SNA member, to give a bit more information about this.  I think his request was not only sensible, it is important that all SNA members know about this point, and I thank that member for his request.

 

On the QCAT website, in section "Decisions", and in Subsection :Enforcing a QCAT decision", the process is explained about what happens after the end of proceedings when, either the tribunal makes a final decision, or an agreement is reached by the parties - such decision may include an order for one or all parties to do something (eg an order for the trader to return money to affected consumers) or to stop acting in a certain way.

If the other party (eg Bill) does not comply with a tribunal order to pay money, to do or cease doing an act, the other party affected SNA member(s) can enforce the tribunal order

For minor civil matters ( such as this matter under discussion) the order(s) would be enforced through the Magistrates Court.

The simple process is described on the QCAT website, and it is free to file the order and the affidavit (sworn statement) with the court.

Once filed, the QCAT decision is taken to be an order of the court, and can be enforced in the same ways as any other order of the Magistrates Court. ** 

 

** 14. It is hoped that such a step would not be necessary, but if it should prove so, at least one member is well aware of this possibility being necessary, and is fully prepared to take such action. 

I would presume that, if such action has to be taken by any member,  others would (if it became necessary)  take similar action. **

 

      

 

 

Edited June 24, 2022 by parrasaw
Minor grammatical corrections

[parrasaw]

 

***  SITUATION UPDATE 27th JUNE ***

 

At this point, 10 people have indicated that they are lodging/planning to lodge Form 1 applications with QCAT about this matter.

The total sum involved in the 10 applications is in excess of  $15,000.

Several others are considering their options.

 

I learned earlier today that, in early June (a few weeks ago), Bill/Bill's family were responding to new queries (via sources of inquiry other than SNA) that they would accept new orders and accept payment for those orders.

 

Therefore, I can only think that those members who have been affected by this issue, and who have decided to take action with QCAT, are not only pursuing their own consumer rights,  I think that it is fair to state that they are doing other people a service by bringing to the attention of QCAT, not only what has happened to them, but what is potentially still happening to others. 

Edited June 27, 2022 by parrasaw
Updated information

[parrasaw]

***  SITUATION UPDATE  -  4th JULY. ***

 

NB.  Please note, there has been a small increase of fees involved in lodging Form 1 with QCAT, after July 1  - see point 12 below.

 

1.  The number of people who are affected by this matter has increased, mostly with regard to members who were sent products which were not what was ordered or promised, or products which are not fit for purpose.  The total amount of money involved has also increased.

2. One SNA member, who has been significantly affected, when posting his Form 1 Application to QCAT today, also lodged a Form 40 Application. which is seeking a direction (ie. requesting) that all applications about the same matter, which are lodged with QCAT by the end of July, be considered by the one referee at one Tribunal Hearing.

3.  Lodging a Form 40 by this member, will assist ALL affected members, because QCAT will then have a detailed overview of the extent and seriousness of the matter, both in terms of monies involved, and also the numbers of affected applicants.

Therefore, affected members who are considering taking action, and those who are in the process of doing such, have much to gain by ensuring that their completed applications are sent to QCAT by registered post to reach QCAT before the end of the month. 

4. Following this process will also maximise the efficiency/effectiveness of a full assessment of the matter within QCAT itself.

5. When applicants receive their notice from QCAT that their application has been processed and stamped, they will receive back from QCAT two stamped copies (from the 3 copies which they sent to QCAT as part of their application).

6. One of those returned copies they keep themselves.

7. The other stamped copy is then served upon (sent to) the Respondent (within 7 days). This is important.

This can be done by posting that copy by Registered Post (because it is tracked) to the respondent at his home address, within 7 days of receiving the stamped form back from QCAT.

8. Also important:  a copy of Form 9 (Affidavit of service) is then downloaded from the QCAT website.

* Complete Part A - straight forward.

* Part B. Complete details of service - also straightforward, then tick the second box at the bottom of page 1

* Go to page 3:   3. "Other service"

Go down to the fourth box. Tick "I served the copy in another way in accordance with the service practice direction, namely by:", then write in below that: Sent by Registered Post - ......................(write in the registered post number).

** There is mention about "Interstate service" at the bottom of page 3 - even if you live in a state other than Queensland, you do not need to do anything in this section, because the respondent lives in Queensland ** 

9. Take the document to a JP or Solicitor's Office, and in their presence, sign and complete the document, and then mail it to the same address where you sent your original application (Form 1).

There is no cost in completing or lodging Form 9 ( the Affidavit).

10. Await notice from QCAT about the next step. - Mediation  and/or Tribunal Hearing

11. Please note - all attendance at either mediation or a Tribunal is still done by teleconferencing, because of Covid. Even without Covid, all applicants could still request attendance via this medium.

12. From July 1, there has been a small increase in fees attached to lodging Form 1 (Application to have the matter heard by QCAT).

The new fees are:

* Not more than $500:     $28.60  (was $27.90).

* More than $500, not more than $1000:   $73.45  (was $71.65).

* More than $1000, not more than $10,000:   $130.70  (was $127.50).

If anyone posted their Form 1 Application, before July 1, there will be a "period of grace" because of postage times/delays, and no extra charge will be made.  Any Applications which were posted before we became aware of the new fees - no problem, QCAT will contact those people, to sort out the small difference in fees. 

 

*** There is a bit of work involved in the above, but considering the money which has been lost by members, and the important consumer protection principles which are involved, a bit of time spent now is  time well spent, which will then (hopefully) enable affected people to obtain their refunds, achieve "justice", move on from this matter, and get back to focussing on enjoying their music. ***

 

  

Edited July 11, 2022 by parrasaw
Updated information

[parrasaw]

**** IMPORTANT SITUATION UPDATE - 11th JULY. ****

 

During a discussion with a QCAT officer this morning, the following information was clarified:

1. Because there are/will be multiple Applicants about this matter, each applicant should complete and lodge an individual Form 40 which will be seeking that all of the individual applications (by Form1) in the matter of "Bill's cables", be dealt with together - at/by the one Referee/Tribunal.

2. There is no cost to lodging the Form 40, which can be downloaded from the QCAT website.

3. For those members who have already sent in their Form 1 Application, they can wait until they receive back from QCAT the 2 copies which will show their QCAT Case Number. Then, they can send to QCAT, 3 copies of a Form 40 completed as per the details below.

(Remember, one of the Form 1 and one of the Form 40 will be your copy to keep, the other is sent to Bill as per discussion above, in 4th July posting).

See also point 5 below.

4. For those members who are yet to send in their Form 1 Application, you can also send in your Form 40 at the same time  as you send your Form 1- do everything (or similar) as detailed below on the Form 40, just leave the box blank in Part A on Form 40, where it asks for the QCAT case number (that will be allocated when your Form 1 Application reaches QCAT). 

5. For ALL members who are completing a Form 40 (whether covered by point 3 or by point4):

(a) Part A - completed with your name, the name of the respondent, and your QCAT case number (if known).

(b) Part B - Tick box "Application for directions"

(c) in Part C -   in "Details of what you are seeking from the Tribunal".

* In 1. Application for Directions:

in I/We -  write your name, then in the space underneath, write the following, or something like it:

* 1.  I am aware that, during the next few weeks,  QCAT will be receiving a number of other Form 1 Applications which will be naming the same Respondent (Mr W M (Bill) Cochrane, trading as unregistered business name "Bill's Cables").

2. Therefore I seek a direction that my Form 1 Application to QCAT, and those other Applications which name the same respondent, (and which are lodged within the next few weeks), be addressed at/by the same Tribunal Hearing and the same Referee.

 

* Then below that, still in Part C. 1.,"Application for Directions", under the sub-heading "List the reasons for this application" write the following, or something like it:

1.  During the next few weeks, QCAT will be receiving other/similar applications (Form 1) which will be naming the same respondent, and which will detail the same or similar concerns which are detailed in my Form 1 Application.

2. Most (probably all) applicants are members of the same Hi Fi  Forum (StereoNet Australia) through which they learned about Mr Cochrane's products (from his "advertisements") and from which they placed their orders with Mr Cochrane.

3. I believe that it will assist all/each of those applicants, who are contacting QCAT and who are sharing the same/similar concerns about the same respondent, to have their matters addressed  by the same Referee/Tribunal Hearing.

4. For the reasons expressed above, dealing with all such related/similar applications at/by the same Referee/Tribunal should also significantly reduce the workload of QCAT when dealing with a number of applications which have all named the same respondent.

Then....

6. Go to page 7 "Checklist"

Tick all of the 4 boxes.

7. Go to "Sign and date here" and complete that section

8. Mail your completed Form 40 to the same mailing address which you used for your Form 1 ( also shown on the bottom of  page 7 of Form 40).

 

IMPORTANT:

** You need to send 3 copies of Form 40 to QCAT, in cases of a minor civil dispute ( which includes the matters which involve "Bill").**

If you have already have lodged your Form 1 with QCAT, and are sending in your Form 40 at a later time (because of today's information), if the 7 days during which you need to serve Bill with one of your 2 stamped copies looks like coming up before you get back your stamped Form 40 copies from QCAT, you can send Bill the required copy of your Form 1, and then later on, send him a copy of your Form 40. My apologies for the extra postage involved.

For everyone else, it makes sense to serve Bill with the copy of Form 1, AND a the copy of Form 40 in the one envelope (Registered Post), once you receive back from QCAT the stamped/certified copies.

 

I hope that the above information is clear to all affected parties.

For ALL affected parties - if any part of the process requires any sort of clarification, or simply if you wish to discuss any aspect......you have my mobile number, so please feel comfortable about calling me, especially if that will speedup/clarify any aspect of the process for you.

 

 

 

   

Edited July 12, 2022 by parrasaw
Typo corrections

[Shane Stephenson]

Hi to all the members that have been affected by Bills cables. I cut open My Vintage Western electric speaker cable yesterday.

I have been examining all of the cable that I purchased from Bill, and not surprisingly what I found was what seems to be modern electrical cable.

I guess the picture here tells a 1000 words. The colour is unmistakeably and earth conductor wrapped around a white wire. On the other side was a brown and blue wire wound together all very modern coloured dielectric not vintage Western electric. I actually have made a set of RCA cables up out of vintage Western electric cable, so I am well aware of what it looks like and this clearly isn't what he was climbing.

 

The reason I purchased so much of Bill's vintage Western electric cable was I was very happy with the sound of what I already had that was genuine, and l was unable to get my hands on anymore of it. As it would seem clearly neither could Bill.

I have spoken with Paul who has been wonderful in coordinating all of this with Marc, he agrees I should notify members and so that is why I'm doing so. I just feel that this is more clear evidence of the deception.

[parrasaw]

Thank you Shane for posting your findings.

Shane spoke to me yesterday when he made the discovery which is detailed above.

Late yesterday, he posted his findings to the group who are taking action with QCAT about this and other types of fraudulent and deceptive practices which have been perpetrated by Mr. Cochrane.

 

Shane is not the only person who has found that his supposed "vintage Western Electric" cable was nothing more than modern electrical cable.

I will be encouraging one of those members to share with the whole membership what he has shown to the group which is taking action with QCAT, about the "internals" of his supposed WE speaker cables. An even worse deception than that which was sent to Shane.

 

Mr Cochrane engendered a lot of sympathy late last year/early this year from members, about his claimed health issues.

If the issues were genuine, any reasonable person would have expressed sympathy for him, and many did so on SNA, and in private communication with Mr Cochrane.

If the claims were/are true, that does not excuse the deceptive and fraudulent actions of Mr Cochrane in regard to the cables which he sold, or in the many other cases where he did not provide either a product or a refund.

There is good reason to be just as suspicious about the health claims as about the claims which were made by Mr Cochrane about the WE cables - I won't go into details at this point, but that statement was not made lightly.

 

Quite a number of members paid premium prices when they bought "WE" cables, Interconnects etc from Mr Cochrane.

You now know that, what was sent to at least 2 other members was NOT genuine WE cable.

If you decide to use the above information as a catalyst for finding out if what you were sent is in fact what you paid for.........that is up to each of you to make that decision.

If you discover in the next week or so that you too were duped, it may be worth considering taking appropriate action with QCAT, as has been outlined above, and you can message me to discuss your options/findings/concerns etc., or simply lodge your own Form 1 and Form 40 applications with QCAT (as per the postings from July 4 and 11, above, which detail the process) to join those who have already lodged applications.

 

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by parrasaw

[Maynard]

To those of you that purchased supposed western electric cables, both interconnects and speaker cables, you need to know that they most probably are not. Here’s what I found when I pulled back the outer casing of the “western electric” bi wire speaker cable 

photo one is the left channel at the speaker termination, photo two, the right speaker termination. 
nothing more than cheap generic speaker wire, and yellow and green earth wire. I suggest if you have not done so already to do what I have done and inspect the cables closely yourself. 
 

[Shane Stephenson]

Oh dear me!!!!! I suspect this should only galvanise everybody to stop this man from continually fleecing people out of  their hard-earned money.

Terribly sorry to know I'm not the only one.

[parrasaw]

Thank you Ben for posting your findings.

I am sorry that you are yet another person who has decided to look at the make-up of their supposed Western Electric "Bill's Cables," only to find that the "WE" cables which they were sent by Bill are anything but the real thing.

At this stage, I am not aware of anybody who paid for WE cable (either speaker cable or interconnects) from Bill, and who actually received genuine WE speaker cables or interconnects.

 

Considering the money which members paid for these vintage cables, and the findings to date, the scale of the deceit/fraud appears to be significantly greater than was first apparent.

[Honreekea]

here is a question:  what recourse is there if one bought Bill's WE cable from  another SNAer?

[Shane Stephenson]

1 hour ago, Honreekea said:

here is a question:  what recourse is there if one bought Bill's WE cable from  another SNAer?

That's a good question. I think it falls under the buyer beware position. But the person selling to you may not have known the cable wasn't genuine. So not sure whether you have any recourse there, but you may well with QCAT as you are now the owner of the cable.

Cheers Shane. 

[parrasaw]

2 hours ago, Honreekea said:

here is a question:  what recourse is there if one bought Bill's WE cable from  another SNAer?

Unfortunately this is an important question which was always going to arise once the likely full extent of the problem became more clear, as has been happening in the last 24 hours.

First thing in the morning, I will be ringing QCAT with three other questions, and I will also put this specific question to them, to see what type of resolution may be available for people who have bought items in good faith from others who were hopefully selling them in good faith.

 

For everybody else who purchased "WE" cables (of any type) from Bill, please do your checks for the products which you purchased.

If , as we suspect, there are a considerable number of members who purchased "WE" cables, which are NOT in fact WE, you would want to know where you stand asap, so that you can join the QCAT action if you so wish.  

[Dawso8]

Evening members, I got in touch with Paul tonight in the hope of adding some evidence to the pile. 
 

He has asked me to post my story here.

 

I purchased a WE phono cable from Bill (amongst a bunch of other non-WE interconnects and speaker cables) in August 2021. The cable was not only not WE in any way, the cable was not shielded (unusable for low level phono signals), was wired in reverse and the ground cable was not connected to the DIN plug.
 

It obviously hummed like anything and was not usable. I had a very kind SNA member attempt to fix it for me, however given the lack of shielding it wasn’t possible (he managed to fix the wiring and connect the ground). I’ve ended up getting absolute legend Peter from Audio Principe to build me a completely new cable with the connector, so at least I salvaged something!

 

Here is a photo after Peter sent me the cable back with the newly built one:

 

 

Cheap, junk wire.

 

Hopefully this helps the case and people who are a lot worse off than me, get some justice.

 

Edited August 9, 2022 by Dawso8

[parrasaw]

Many thanks Ryan for taking the time to add your evidence to the growing bank of evidence which is now known about Bill's WE cable scam.