buddyev Posted July 18, 2013 Posted July 18, 2013 (edited) Ridiculous quote from Henry Rollins, but i know what he means http://www.guardian.co.uk/culture/australia-culture-blog/2013/jul/18/vinyl-records-fair-revival Edited July 18, 2013 by buddyev
Keith Anderson Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 "First, there’s the audiophile. This is the guy or girl (but mostly, for some reason, the guy) who’ll be delighted to inform you that you’re doing it wrong. Vinyl is the real deal, they say, the real information, captured at a wider frequency and dug into the grooves; a CD is just cheap data, and it’ll never sound as good. This is technically true but, outside of the pops and crackles of vinyl, there’s very few stereos - and ears - that can tell the difference." Find this amusing as I wouldn't call my system hi-end a RP3 modded into a Brio-R and MA GS10's and I can certainly tell the difference in vinyl to CD. Crumbs even my tone deaf wife could tell the difference. Nice article all the same, interesting to see where it's going.
Saxon Hall Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 I own records. I own CD's I own Cassettes. I own a computer which has music on it. I own an MP3 player. I listen to them all. That is all! 1
cafe67 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) I agree , this vinyl vs CD argument really does sh1t me. "Oh vinyl plays the tunes better" oh cr4p the tune is in the music no matter want you are playing it on. A lot of the argument strikes me has audio snobbery " my kuzma//Linn/clearaudo/SME/brinkman turntable sounds much better than a CD" well so it should for what it cost. I enjoy hearing my music via whatever format - still got my first record (human league dare) still got my first cassette (name of this band is talking heads) still got my first CD (Cocteau twins pink opaque). Edited July 21, 2013 by cafe67
Darren69 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 I wouldn't say it sh*t$ me but I would say I dont understand it. I love it all...well, am not huge on downloads but hey, I can see the convenience of it all. Then again, I wave to Harleys from my sportsbike, and think blondes, brunettes and redheads are all gorgeous. Just all different experinces in the soup of life. Why voluntarily remove them from your own experience on this third rock from the sun? One is deceased a long time.
cheekyboy Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 I agree , this vinyl vs CD argument really does sh1t me. A lot of the argument strikes me has audio snobbery " my kuzma//Linn/clearaudo/SME/brinkman turntable sounds much better than a CD" well so it should for what it cost. I enjoy hearing my music via whatever format - still got my first record (human league dare) still got my first cassette (name of this band is talking heads) still got my first CD (Cocteau twins pink opaque). I agree the argument is pretty boring, cafe67. I had a Rega Planar 3 with RB300 arm that did sound better than my Droplet CDP and it shouldn't have, given the relative price points..............no audio snobbery there at all. I still listen to CDs now though, have more music on computer hard drives than I'll ever be able to listen to in three lifetimes and I still have my last cassette tape player and most of my cassette tapes from the '70s and '80s as well, if I should feel the urge to play them. If I have a sit down in front listen though, it will nearly always be vinyl, because I do prefer the sound/experience over the other formats. Cheers, Keith 1
houdinifangs Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 Vinyl can sound better than digital and digital can sound better than vinyl. I like both but in an ideal world I'd have everything available on perfectly pressed and pristine vinyl that miraculously evades wear. Hank loves to talk about "The Man" and to an extent this more political idea is less discussed in the vinyl Vs digital debate. It's one rife with BS, contradiction and spurious nostalgia, however I do 'buy in' a little myself - a middle class comfort? For me vinyl is a active choice to resist that capitalistic drive to innovation and newness. I also use tube and single drivers. Having worked as an IT specialist in my field over many years I have come to loathe everything computers represent. Vinyl and the rig is an alternate world that is an aesthetic/political expression, somewhat akin to the slow food movement. But i'll readily admit as already hinted that this is merely idle fancy...a convenient myth to indulge a gratuitous excess. 6
Guest Muon Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I have come to loathe everything computers represent. And I was thinking it was just me Myself I prefer records...OK vinyl, why............ I just do.
Newman Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 For me vinyl is a active choice to resist that capitalistic drive to innovation and newness. Nice post, houdinifangs, I enjoyed it. On the point above, though I must say that is an extremely narrow view of innovation and newness. The drive to improve the human condition, either large-scale (social) or small-scale (tribal, familial), can be traced to the murky depths of time from which humans strode. Capitalism, the way we mean it today, is only a few centuries old, although economic trading goes back a couple of millennia. To innovate and renew is to apply the strengths of the human mind to the human condition: it is not a subset or servant of capitalism IMHO. I see vinyl as being absolutely an expression of cutting-edge innovation and newness in music recording and playback. It just happened 60 years ago, is all. Its relationship to capitalism is the same as digital audio's.
houdinifangs Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 Please explain 'the man'. Quite a scholarly definition about the 1 minute mark here: 1
houdinifangs Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 On the point above, though I must say that is an extremely narrow view of innovation and newness. Agreed - I am becoming a fuddy-duddy...and obliviously happy
DAMO 1147 Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I'll take Henry's rega spinner off his hands and leave him to his analog rig. :lol:
Darren69 Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 Good idea, doesn't sound like he will miss it much.
hyper Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 The digital v analogue or vinyl v CD/SACD debate bores me to tears. There is strengths and weaknesses in both technologies it is really down to craftsman (engineers) ability to get the best out of the given medium.. Taking into careful consideration what the strengths are of the given technology, how to apply it and how to mitigate it's flaws! There is some shyt awful recorded and mastered CDs as there are vinyls. In the most part the brick walled Mastered CD is just as appalling sounding as the crap recycled vinyl and in and out album recording/producing That happened 30 years back giving rise to MFSL, nautilus half speed amougnst others... If music is given the focus - talented musicians, capable engineers and technos will create great music on any medium and those who choose not to acknowledge that may just be missing out! I for one are excited with the resurgence of vinyl as it seems for the most part the focus is on the music and getting the best out of the medium, shame it is not the same for CD at the moment, but in the wider scheme of things maybe that focus will shift to hi res formats, The beauty is there has been wonderful music which has stood the test of time that is now 100 years old. Conversely people continue to waste time arguing about how it reaches our hearts and minds, stop and listen dont analyze! 2
cafe67 Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I agree the argument is pretty boring, cafe67. I had a Rega Planar 3 with RB300 arm that did sound better than my Droplet CDP and it shouldn't have, given the relative price points..............no audio snobbery there at all. I still listen to CDs now though, have more music on computer hard drives than I'll ever be able to listen to in three lifetimes and I still have my last cassette tape player and most of my cassette tapes from the '70s and '80s as well, if I should feel the urge to play them. If I have a sit down in front listen though, it will nearly always be vinyl, because I do prefer the sound/experience over the other formats. Cheers, Keith Lol maybe I need top loading CD player with puck :-)
Newman Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 The digital v analogue or vinyl v CD/SACD debate bores me to tears. There is strengths and weaknesses in both technologies it is really down to craftsman (engineers) ability to get the best out of the given medium.. Taking into careful consideration what the strengths are of the given technology, how to apply it and how to mitigate it's flaws! There is some shyt awful recorded and mastered CDs as there are vinyls. In the most part the brick walled Mastered CD is just as appalling sounding as the crap recycled vinyl and in and out album recording/producing That happened 30 years back giving rise to MFSL, nautilus half speed amougnst others... If music is given the focus - talented musicians, capable engineers and technos will create great music on any medium and those who choose not to acknowledge that may just be missing out! I for one are excited with the resurgence of vinyl as it seems for the most part the focus is on the music and getting the best out of the medium, shame it is not the same for CD at the moment, but in the wider scheme of things maybe that focus will shift to hi res formats, The beauty is there has been wonderful music which has stood the test of time that is now 100 years old. Conversely people continue to waste time arguing about how it reaches our hearts and minds, stop and listen dont analyze! Well you can feel that way about it, but I find it fascinating and like to discuss it. I don't think it helps those who like to discuss it, to have a constant dribble of negativity about the discourse from people who are saying they don't want to post. ??!!?? Or even that they don't want to read it????? It's not an addiction is it? As audiophiles I think we deserve the BEST. And we deserve to know what is the technical pecking order. Not to have the pecking order obscured by people who frankly just have a personal favourite that they don't want to see toppled. So let's stop the smoke-screening, and have the discussion. So... to your points. The fact that 'both' technologies have strengths and weaknesses does not mean there is no winner. "Brick wall mastered CDs" -- they barely exist. I suppose there are a few somewhere. CD's are not brick wall mastered. And there has been no brick wall in CD playback for over 20 years. How many talented musicians are currently "creating great music" on vinyl only? And if there are any, why are they making such a silly decision? Did some warped techie whisper in their ear and hobble their careers as musicians? Yes the music is the focus, and we need to record it on the BEST technology we possibly can. Not analog.
Saxon Hall Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I wouldn't say it sh*t$ me but I would say I dont understand it. I love it all...well, am not huge on downloads but hey, I can see the convenience of it all. Then again, I wave to Harleys from my sportsbike, and think blondes, brunettes and redheads are all gorgeous. Just all different experinces in the soup of life. Why voluntarily remove them from your own experience on this third rock from the sun? One is deceased a long time. Deep
hyper Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 (edited) The digital v analogue or vinyl v CD/SACD debate bores me to tears. There is strengths and weaknesses in both technologies it is really down to craftsman (engineers) ability to get the best out of the given medium.. Taking into careful consideration what the strengths are of the given technology, how to apply it and how to mitigate it's flaws! There is some shyt awful recorded and mastered CDs as there are vinyls. In the most part the brick walled Mastered CD is just as appalling sounding as the crap recycled vinyl and in and out album recording/producing That happened 30 years back giving rise to MFSL, nautilus half speed amougnst others... If music is given the focus - talented musicians, capable engineers and technos will create great music on any medium and those who choose not to acknowledge that may just be missing out! I for one are excited with the resurgence of vinyl as it seems for the most part the focus is on the music and getting the best out of the medium, shame it is not the same for CD at the moment, but in the wider scheme of things maybe that focus will shift to hi res formats, The beauty is there has been wonderful music which has stood the test of time that is now 100 years old. Conversely people continue to waste time arguing about how it reaches our hearts and minds, stop and listen dont analyze! Well you can feel that way about it, but I find it fascinating and like to discuss it. I don't think it helps those who like to discuss it, to have a constant dribble of negativity about the discourse from people who are saying they don't want to post. ??!!?? Or even that they don't want to read it????? It's not an addiction is it? As audiophiles I think we deserve the BEST. And we deserve to know what is the technical pecking order. Not to have the pecking order obscured by people who frankly just have a personal favourite that they don't want to see toppled. So let's stop the smoke-screening, and have the discussion. So... to your points. The fact that 'both' technologies have strengths and weaknesses does not mean there is no winner. "Brick wall mastered CDs" -- they barely exist. I suppose there are a few somewhere. CD's are not brick wall mastered. And there has been no brick wall in CD playback for over 20 years. How many talented musicians are currently "creating great music" on vinyl only? And if there are any, why are they making such a silly decision? Did some warped techie whisper in their ear and hobble their careers as musicians? Yes the music is the focus, and we need to record it on the BEST technology we possibly can. Not analog. Everyone has the right to discuss their opinions. I'm certainly not providing negatively to the discussion either. Everyone has a right to prefer a medium I never said they don't? The point of "It tires me" relates to people who sit on one side or the other who blindly swear by technical facts where pertinent to support their case and stray to subjective comments where they cannot substantiate their claims - but mainly the reason for this comment is those that cant keep their mind open to other mediums based on ignorance not experience... (that is a general comment relating to this debate not anyone in particular in this thread) The point I was trying to make is There is no absolute right or wrong when it comes to mediums they all have compromises somewhere - as for "well there still can to be a winner?" How do you quantify that? How do you say noise floor is more or less important than dynamics? That dithering is less or more intrusive than tonearm resonance? You can't it's a personal opinion. Opinion on musical attributes is SO subjective that at the end of the day it's a personal choice. I myself listen to FLAC, vinyl, SACD/CD and R2R. I am not going to say one is superior than another, I like all mediums based on the character they portray to the music, the type of music im listening to or mood im in! As for brick wall mastering, compressed to within a inch or it's life, hot masters... Pretty much every pop artist today in mainstream still is.. Whether that be CD or digital file. Recording on the best medium needs to be digital? Well I would say it may or may not, again I don't believe there is an absolute, could you prove that the digital format recorded some aspects better than analogue, probably, could you prove that analogue r2r pressed to vinyl has a better frequency range, yes... Does either make them sound better people can only answer for themselves.. A technical superior specification doesn't necessarily translate to an audible black and white view.. If your in the digital camp power to you at the end of the day if it makes you happy than that's all matters! Edited July 22, 2013 by hyper
LogicprObe Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I agree the argument is pretty boring, cafe67. I had a Rega Planar 3 with RB300 arm that did sound better than my Droplet CDP and it shouldn't have, given the relative price points..............no audio snobbery there at all. I still listen to CDs now though, have more music on computer hard drives than I'll ever be able to listen to in three lifetimes and I still have my last cassette tape player and most of my cassette tapes from the '70s and '80s as well, if I should feel the urge to play them. If I have a sit down in front listen though, it will nearly always be vinyl, because I do prefer the sound/experience over the other formats. Cheers, Keith I never, ever bought a cassette tape. They just didn't sound as good as a real record. I did have reel to reel though! 1
cheekyboy Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I never, ever bought a cassette tape. They just didn't sound as good as a real record. I did have reel to reel though! I have a lot of cassettes that were handed down to me by my Aunt and Uncle when they passed away, but I can't remember buying a pre recorded cassette either. I still have a lot of my own recordings from the '70s and 80s though, as for me anyway, it was fairly normal practice to tape what I had on vinyl in those days, especially for listening in a car. I had R2R as well, but alas no more. Cheers, Keith
hyper Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I preferred r2r my fingers where always to fat to resplice 1/8 inch back together 1/4 inch was enough of a struggle for yours truly sausage fingers! 1
LogicprObe Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 I have a lot of cassettes that were handed down to me by my Aunt and Uncle when they passed away, but I can't remember buying a pre recorded cassette either. I still have a lot of my own recordings from the '70s and 80s though, as for me anyway, it was fairly normal practice to tape what I had on vinyl in those days, especially for listening in a car. I had R2R as well, but alas no more. Cheers, Keith True. The car speakers of the day weren't that good either. The best sound I ever got was when I left a foldback monitor in the back of my EH wagon! (2 x 12" + horn)
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