Luc Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 You have a small room, your in suburbia, you have family,you have a budget that will stretch to some tasty floorstanders that would do a big room proud like these for instance but...big speakers=big room isn't really a real equation is it? There are so many other factors to consider and we all mostly know them or some of them; Crap in crap out.Efficient speakers to inefficient means different engine rooms. Ample power on tap for low level listening or roof lifting blow you out the door sessions=hmm, what type of amplification. Cables/power conditioners/DACs/myriad amp combinations,Tube/SS/hybrid the list is a long one but in the end you can only listen to your music at either comfortable levels for your own listening or levels that are comfortable for all those that share the house/flat/unit with you. Are you limited in what you can expect to hear if all or some of the above restrictions are in place? Can you get those big SF's and PMC's and SGR's and any number of others to fairly sing if your restricted in volume levels and a small room's acoustics limitations? Should you instead, try to get a big sound from a small/small-ish speaker(those Gold Coast shiny ones that everyone here bangs on about all the time...forget the name but like the paint job... for instance) and chase a big sound at low decibels? Big speakers doesn't automatically equate into : You have to have a big room to get the best out of these! Does it? Or does it? *I was just surfing the pages of unobtania and began to daydream...hence this post. I hope Victor reads this post because he's had some big speakers in what I consider a small space and others here have big speakers but I'm not sure of their individual listening enviroments. Mine(my environment) has as you well know a resident Handbrake which equates to a spanner that's permanently thrown into the works, Sword of Damocles aint got nothing on my Handbrake let me tell you. so there's yet another factor thrown in. Seriously though it's a worthwhile discussion I reckon.
brumby Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 The first thing you have to do is to define what you mean by a "small" room.
Krispy Audio Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) I've seen some ridiculously big speakers in tiny rooms that have performed well. In the cases where they've worked, amplification has been top notch. But it's going to be brand and design-specific imo. I think there is sometimes a misconception that larger speakers are harder to drive. Often the opposite is true. One brand I sell jumps about 2dB in efficiency as you move up (in size and price) through the range! But I think you get away with less in a smaller room. I believe the choice should be made from a taste, budget and size (ie how much space are you willing to sacrifice) perspective. There are of course aspects such as if it's rear ported you may need more space from the front wall, so perhaps you would start to look for base ported, vented or sealed designs to give you more placement options. And of course you need to be sensible, you don't want a monster of a speaker where the tweeter fires a metre above where your ears are when seated! Edited July 10, 2013 by Krispy Audio
Darren69 Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) My system (Parasound pre and power amp, Focal 1038Be's) is in a 6m by 5m (roughly) room but they face down the hallways, open kitchen etc. The set up is so that I can listen to amazing music sitting on the lounge, or it still sounds really nice down the far end of the house in the bedroom or office. I really need a rug though.... Are they those gorgeous Sonus Faber jobbies? Edited July 10, 2013 by Darren69
Luc Posted July 10, 2013 Author Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) The first thing you have to do is to define what you mean by a "small" room. Well what would you call a 'small room' then? I call my enclosed(or soon to be) 4m x 5m x2.7m room a small room but I've seen smaller here at SNA not including bedroom systems and lets face it if you had a pair of SF Cremonas in your bedroom you'd hope to hell your kids would be named Mario, Maria and Dominico :lol: . Cam, "amplification has been top notch." That I think is almost the hub of my question really, can you get the best out of big speakers in a small room? And I think that amplification is the answer, proper amplification to suit the speakers and the environment they're in. @Darren: They certainly are, if your up in Lismore call into the Audioroom and you'll see a pair of these that are only there for a while before the new owner has them installed...gobsmackingly beautiful....Click (scroll through the pic presentation...very yum-me!) Edited July 10, 2013 by Luc
brumby Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 4m x 5m x 2.7m eh. I wouldn't call that a "small" room. But that's just me.
betty boop Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) 4 x 5 is a good workable size. can easily sit them 2.5m to 3m apart depending on room length used and sit approx 2.5-3m away from them to godo result I would say. whats the room look like. do you have a sketch. can you use either width/length. if have a choice I'd go speakers across the 4m width. ie 2.5m apart. say 1m from back wall. sitting 3m back from them and leaves 1m behind you. this way your sitting 2/3rd room length as well which should place you pretty well in case of bass and I have no doubts something could work very well ! just a matter of trying Edited July 10, 2013 by :) al
Krispy Audio Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 Agree 100% Luc - I think you get away with eg lower damping factor amps in a larger room but not a small one. So along similar lines to you the room doesn't have to be a problem, but the smaller it is the more planning you probably need to do to ensure a good result.
Darren69 Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 Thanks Luc, shall do, I don't know how they do it but the Italians are the absolute masters of understated classy style.
Luc Posted July 10, 2013 Author Posted July 10, 2013 This wasn't a thread asking for help or advice(but thank you all the same ) as I'm currently in the middle of my room's refurb and I've nearly crossed the Rubicon with it (it's here if you wish to have a look at how it's proceeding>>Click) so I'm committed...but like any good SNA'er I've got a weather eye on the future and at some stage I'll update the current speakers I have and if a pair of big SF's landed at my front door or a very generously priced pair of big ZU's(ahem Cameron...) I'd need advice then. But at the moment I'm just interested in what people have to say on the matter and Brumby, yes your right it's not that smaller room I guess in the scale of small rooms, it just seems small to me. Planning = what exactly, would you say?
tesla13BMW Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 Hi Luc My lounge is 6m x 6m with standard height ceiling. I've got my stacked ESL 57's (2m high and a metre wide) about a metre off the back wall and a meter out from the side walls. Living in suburban Brisbane and having kids who are in bed by half eight at night means low level listening is the only option in the evening. They are driven by old, but, to be considered pretty good amps (Plinius MA102 mono blocks) and even at low volume levels are a pleasure to listen too. I have tried driving them with a small EL84 Chinese integrated and yes the sound falls over. However, a pair of old AWA KT88 monoblocks (picked up cheap) does phenomenally. The Earle Western Troubadour does a wonderful job. I guess the question are; what is a big room? What is a big speaker? What is a good amplification system? Personally I don't see my room as particularly big, the speakers are physically very large and my amplification probably isn't top notch; but, hell all together and they do pretty damn good. Cheers, Chris. 1
Darren69 Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 I have always preferred the sound and presence of big floorstanders and have just configured everything else around them, haha, until it all sounded just so. It's not a small room. Go big man. Hook that Raysonic up and I will bring the Coopers. Theres my contribution, haha. 1
betty boop Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) didnt realise this was a hypothetical... but will play along my experience. had a music room. got captured by the wife and converted to a baby room. meant I had to integrate my 2ch set with the av set in the main lounge room. as much I felt a bit robbed to loose the music room the lounge room was oh so much larger and so much better for it. basically I see a room as the canvas lets say. the smaller it is the smaller the experience as contained within. there are room effects too I think and smaller you go the more important are treatments as you end up having to deal with reflections and boundary effects. re bass this is probably main factor impacted most by room size I would say. a smaller room and you dont need huge air movign capablity to end up a pretty decent full range result. but get bigger and smaller speakers will just get lost in there. just wont have the bass impact, able to pressurise the room etc. on other hand place a speaker with huge bass generation capability and in a smaller room it will overpower be all a bit too much. and without ability to tailor that ability might even get to the point of being unlistenable. I would say smaller rooms lend themselves better to sub sat style setups. on other hand smaller rooms will prob give enough room gain in the bass department for smaller floor standers or decent standmounts to do an exceptional job Edited July 10, 2013 by :) al
davewantsmoore Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) big speakers=big room isn't really a real equation is it? It doesn't have to be an issue. I think it boils down to a few things. Listening distance. Will you be back far enough from the speaker for the crossover between the drivers to work? Boundary distance. How close will you speaker be to boundaries? Front and rear walls are pretty well known issues.... Side walls, depend on the speakers radiation pattern. If your speaker puts out off axis sound which is "not good" .... then this will be exacerbated by the stronger, earlier reflections, of a small room. The smaller a room, the less treatment is acceptable before the room becomes too dead .... so that's not a fix. A speaker with an even .... and ideally narrow (IMHO) ... radiation pattern, is the key for all rooms, but especially small rooms. Many 'normal' speakers (big and small) have radiation patterns which are wide and/or bumpy. A speaker with a "waveguide" on the tweeter (to narrow and straighten the pattern) are potentially good solutions. 4m x 5m x 2.7m = small Me too ... but acoustics considers it a 'small' room. Anything smaller is very very small. Edited July 10, 2013 by davewantsmoore
Luc Posted July 10, 2013 Author Posted July 10, 2013 A speaker with a "waveguide" on the tweeter (to narrow and reduce bumps in the pattern) are potentially good solutions. You mean something like this ribbon tweeter and the guide surrounding it?>>and the wave guide[?] around the woofer?
mpearce38 Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 yes it can work but room treatments can make or break it imho. you will need good bass traping and don't go too heavy on absorption try and use diffusors where ever possible, check out vicoutics they have some very clever products
davewantsmoore Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 You mean something like this ribbon tweeter and the guide surrounding it?>>Concerto2MediumCherry.jpgand the wave guide[?] around the woofer? Yes. I do. That's the idea... BUT What you see around the woofer is too small to make it a "waveguide" (it's just decorative). The ribbon tweeter has a very wide (horisontal) dispersion pattern to begin with ... and the waveguide is quite small... so the effect we are looking for wouldn't be very strong, on your example. Something like this, could achieve more. Also, I really don't think this is an electronics thing. In so far as, amps and sources will make as much difference as they do in any other situation. This issue of a small room hinges around, speaker radiation pattern, speaker placement, room geometry/size, and room treatment ..... in roughly that order. Speaker response (ie. do you have too much bass, or treble, or whatever) is also a big deal ..... but that's a universal problem too. 1
Luc Posted July 10, 2013 Author Posted July 10, 2013 @Dave: You might be interested in this fact file >>>The advantages of using waveguides in Hi-Fi loudspeakers
davewantsmoore Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 room treatments can make or break it imho. you will need good bass traping and don't go too heavy on absorption Yep... and this is very easy to get wrong. Bass trapping is important, but too much absorption at higher frequencies is also easily possible in a small room ..... This means the bass traps you do use need to be huge. 100mm thick at least .... ideally a lot thicker so their outer surface area (to avoid too much absorption at HF) can be reduced .... It really is a problem. I wish my WAF-ometer would let ME have bass traps.... sniffle. Oh well, new dedicated room next year, YAY! 2
davewantsmoore Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 @Dave: You might be interested in this fact file >>>The advantages of using waveguides in Hi-Fi loudspeakers Yep. I like Amphion (in theory, not heard them). Good article too at a quick skim. Here's my latest batch of waveguides I 'guided' (HUUUR!) the design for, over on techtalk. Not the profile of the guide (which is well agreed on), but the throat where it mates onto the tweeter (the design is very sensitive).... For an idea of size -- The biggest ones there are to mate with 8" woofers, and the smallest 4" woofers. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?234279-Some-New-Guides-quot-Pic-quot I'm not "Dave Pellegrene" by the way ... He's the guy who makes them for me. The white big elliptical one is designed specifically for the Transducer Lab N26C ceramic dome tweeter .... if anyone is interested click the link and look at the specs. They are ridiculous good.
davewantsmoore Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 (edited) This bit of their article is the key message for this thread: Therefore the off axis sound is similar above and below the crossover frequency. This is important because in a normal room, most of the sound energy you hear comes to you as off axis sound via the walls, ceiling and floor. This we call indirect sound. And the sound that comes straight to you from the loudspeaker, we call direct sound. So if you use a normal loudspeaker, the frequency response of the indirect sound is very different from the frequency response of the direct sound. Your brain senses this difference, and you notice that tweeter and woofer sounds are separated and different. Edited July 10, 2013 by davewantsmoore
davewantsmoore Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 Not that a waveguide is essential to avoid this problem (large errors off axis) .... but without one, the pattern of the speaker tends to be wide.
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted July 10, 2013 Volunteer Posted July 10, 2013 You have a small room, your in suburbia, you have family,you have a budget that will stretch to some tasty floorstanders that would do a big room proud like these for instancecremona_m.jpg but...big speakers=big room isn't really a real equation is it? If there's not enough room for both speakers to face the front then I think there will be a problem 1
LowkeyOperations Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 If you have a small room I'd go for active speakers designed to be used as nearfields.
hochopeper Posted July 10, 2013 Posted July 10, 2013 Not that a waveguide is essential to avoid this problem (large errors off axis) .... but without one, the pattern of the speaker tends to be wide. Agreed! There is a point where pattern control becomes less important, though that's debatable and there's a lot of other compromises and difficulties that come with a large wave guide (remember a waveguide is a type of horn, not all horns are waveguides). Yep. I like Amphion (in theory, not heard them). Good article too at a quick skim. Here's my latest batch of waveguides I 'guided' (HUUUR!) the design for, over on techtalk. Not the profile of the guide (which is well agreed on), but the throat where it mates onto the tweeter (the design is very sensitive).... For an idea of size -- The biggest ones there are to mate with 8" woofers, and the smallest 4" woofers. http://techtalk.parts-express.com/showthread.php?234279-Some-New-Guides-quot-Pic-quot I'm not "Dave Pellegrene" by the way ... He's the guy who makes them for me. The white big elliptical one is designed specifically for the Transducer Lab N26C ceramic dome tweeter .... if anyone is interested click the link and look at the specs. They are ridiculous good. Neat! does feel like a shame to hide the machined alu of those tweeters, shame that don't machine a nice waveguide (I know a guy who's designing a waveguide into an alu baffle but with SS revelator woofer and ... going to be expensive getting full baffle machined from T6 for a one off job!!)
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