Full Range Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Found this article and in some ways it sounds like common sense http://www.hifipage.com/high-end-audio-sounds-crap-206/ Snip from the article - Most men who walk into a hifi store ask for speakers with a lot of power and bass. Audiophiles may laugh at this, but essentially they are the same. Audiophiles want gear with low (amplitude) distortion, low noise, and low capacitance in cables. But they seem to forget that these things probably don’t matter all that much, since figures are hardly a sign of true quality. The sound I heard from that restaurant was distorted and noisy beyond any reasonable factor, yet it sounded real. In the process of improving on test results and obtaining more bragging rights, we’ve forgotten the purpose of high fidelity. These days I have a chuckle to myself everytime I hear of someone describing sounds as “warmâ€. In the process of trying to produce undistorted treble (IMHO the most difficult thing to achieve in a system), we’ve grown accustomed to manufacturers simply giving up and dulling the high end, inventing the term “warm†to cover for their inadequacies. I do believe that “harshness†exists: in the form of distorted treble. But “warmth†has simply become an excuse for the inability to produce accurate high range.
gainphile Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I'm pretty sure that no HiFi system can replicate live music, down to individual air particles hitting the eardrums. The best we could hope for is an 'illusion'. One day in the future perhaps audiophiles mean someone with directly wired interface to his brain synapses .
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted July 4, 2013 Volunteer Posted July 4, 2013 I don't understand the connection he is trying to make between the sound of live music and a rolled off top end in hifi gear. Is he implying that is why hifi gear doesn't sound 'real' 1
davewantsmoore Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 I think it's more the midrange than treble.... and coverage pattern is very important. Direct to reflected sound. 1
gainphile Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Maybe "how can the sound of 40cm cymbal be reproduced by 1" tweeter" ? 4
Full Range Posted July 4, 2013 Author Posted July 4, 2013 Maybe "how can the sound of 40cm cymbal be reproduced by 1" tweeter" ? Yep I like this post Having said that - some live bands can be so bad one needs to cover ones ears to give them a rest
Satanica Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 (edited) I think the full sound of a live performance is rarely captured (if ever) in a recording. Reasons for this can be both intentional and non-intentional. It doesn't make sense to blame the Hi-Fi system completely if the data isn't there to start with. Edited July 4, 2013 by Satanica 2
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted July 4, 2013 Volunteer Posted July 4, 2013 Aah so the recording *is* the most important component in the system ! 1
Satanica Posted July 4, 2013 Posted July 4, 2013 Aah so the recording *is* the most important component in the system ! Maybe, maybe not. But we definitely need both the recording and the playback system to be top notch to get "top notch" sound!
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted July 4, 2013 Volunteer Posted July 4, 2013 'Top notch' perhaps but maybe not 'live'. After all, as the article points out, a live band playing over a crappy p.a. in an acoustically challenged venue still sounds live.
Briz Vegas Posted July 9, 2013 Posted July 9, 2013 This is not a new topic but my thinking is evolving on this issue. As one audiophile put it ( more or less) "Why would you want to reproduce live music, it mostly sounds like crap". A recording was once just a record of an event. I like this concept and for that reason often prefer live or live-ish (live, but tweaked) recordings. This is a personal preference, but i find audiophile recordings are as boring as duck do do. I want to hear music as communication not as an experiment in clarity and hall reverb ( fake or otherwise). Most CDs and albums you buy today are pure contrivances, which is also legitimate, yet we grumble that it does not recreate the din heard in most pubs or even a small ensemble in a performance space. Recorded music has become an art in its own right. Pianist Glenn Gould is said to have invested much time in recorded music as art, even encouraging listeners to edit and modify his music to suit themselves. A hifi that allows you to hear deeper into a recording is therefore a legitimate end. If you want to reproduce a club PA then buy a club PA. 1
fetischizm Posted July 19, 2013 Posted July 19, 2013 (edited) when was the last time you heard truly live music anyway? even most classical, vocal etc is all very much amplified. pretty realistic treble can be had with headphones so tiny they fit 6 drivers and a crossover literally inside my ears, treble wavelength is pretty narrow and so is a pinnae, so i'm not really sure what exactly a cymbal sized tweeter is going to do all that much better? that being said, I do think a lot of hifi sound is far too polite Edited July 19, 2013 by fetischizm 1
bruce108 Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 even most classical, vocal etc is all very much amplified. Not so. Classical singers train for 6-8 years to develop a voice that can be heard unamplified in a large space over an orchestra. Orchestral concerts, chamber music, recitals are not amplified. Classical recordings differ. Some (most) are multi-miked and sometimes the result is different from any actual sound - the equivalent of movie close-ups. Fashions change here. Older vocal and concerto recordings have the soloists closely-miked, sounding out of proportion to the orchestra. Nowadays, critics sometimes complain, esp of choral recordings, that the sound is not sufficiently distinguished. Then there are the single or double mike recordings and other techniques to capture the precise balance of a concert hall. But to repeat, in performance, you're on yer own.
fetischizm Posted July 20, 2013 Posted July 20, 2013 well that will depend on the orchestra and venue, because its certainly not across the board
aechmea Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 when was the last time you heard truly live music anyway? 1964 [The state SO (or maybe it was a part thereof) came to our country town's picture theatre. The school had to attend.] Interesting that 'hifi' can be of some interest to someone when 'music' is clearly not.
fetischizm Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) 1964 [The state SO (or maybe it was a part thereof) came to our country town's picture theatre. The school had to attend.] Interesting that 'hifi' can be of some interest to someone when 'music' is clearly not. exactly my point, its pretty rare, i've seen comments from people all over the world complaining that much of the classical performances in large venues are electrified in some way. I listen to music more than most probably, since I work at home (meaning I use my studio monitors at my desk) and have a very decent DIY transportable headphone system, I dont really have the same restrictions many do. I can appreciate, but dont listen to a lot of classical, but my taste is all over the map. the last live unplugged performance I saw was an impromptu performance by Margaret Roadknight earlier in the year (actually may have been late last year), Margaret is a family friend and I see her most Xmas lunches. Man shes got some lungs on her!, I forget and she blows me away every time. I wish she had more recognition here in Au Edited July 21, 2013 by fetischizm
rawl99 Posted July 21, 2013 Posted July 21, 2013 when was the last time you heard truly live music anyway? even most classical, vocal etc is all very much amplified. pretty realistic treble can be had with headphones so tiny they fit 6 drivers and a crossover literally inside my ears, treble wavelength is pretty narrow and so is a pinnae, so i'm not really sure what exactly a cymbal sized tweeter is going to do all that much better? that being said, I do think a lot of hifi sound is far too polite Classical virtually every week without any nature of amplification. The addition of amplification (particularly class D pa stuff) IME always sucks the beauty, naturalness, engagement, texture and life out of the music. No surprise that I am a valve boy. Agree that a lot of Hifi can sound too polite; however, one of my consistent observations is that people very commonly mistake harsh treble reproduction as being the natural 'bite' that live instruments have. I find this to be oh so incorrect because the natural bite of live acoustic instruments does not have a graty hardness that LOTS of Hifi systems have. The bite and attack of live music will make you sit up and really pay attention but it does not make one cringe like a lot of Hifi. Rawl 1
Full Range Posted July 21, 2013 Author Posted July 21, 2013 (edited) I do remember when I was a young fellow that most pubs had a live band for patrons I listened to many live bands twice a week or more for several years Seen many a band get there start in local pubs Acoustics may not have been the best and the crowds liked to talk loud in a slightly drunken state May I say that I was more an experience at being there with others and the music was the glue My favourite haunt was the Star Hotel - it was so large the front was in Hunter Street and the back was in King Street Newcastle It actually had 3 bands in its separate themed areas I knew the manager When the hotel closed for the night we always congregated in the centre bar - ( It was a gay area but it was cool and the people were nice ) I was also involved in the riots when they shut it down to be demolished - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Hotel_riot Edited July 21, 2013 by Full Range
at68 Posted July 22, 2013 Posted July 22, 2013 Last Friday night, I sat down with my wife to celebrate our wedding anniversery by listening to a few old tunes we have enjoyed over the years. My wife asked me to turn it down, which is unusual when we have a few wines. I then figured my tweeter crossover was not right - way too bright. It is a Fostex horn T90a, so quite detailed. Went out the the shed, pulled out some lower value caps and dialed in a higher crossover point. The tweeter disappeared, and we ended up turning up the volume. It just goes to show our ears are very sensitive to tweeters, and distortion. You just know when things are not right....
Newman Posted July 25, 2013 Posted July 25, 2013 The blogger is basically moaning that he doesn't hear high end hifi that sounds just like live music. He probably hasn't thought it through. Typical blogger. There are some good SNA threads covering this topic: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/54092-do-you-think-your-system-is-accurate-and-if-so-how-do-you-judge-this/ my thoughts: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/54092-do-you-think-your-system-is-accurate-and-if-so-how-do-you-judge-this/#entry906046, and http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/54092-do-you-think-your-system-is-accurate-and-if-so-how-do-you-judge-this/#entry907056 Another SNA thread: http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/43122-what-is-the-right-reference-point-for-sound-reproduction/ IMHO (I have I think stated elsewhere) it is not necessarily the hifi's fault if we don't think it sounds the same as live music. Even a perfect hifi will fail this test, unless you put it each side of a live musician, in your home, and 'blind switch'.
Full Range Posted July 25, 2013 Author Posted July 25, 2013 The blogger is basically moaning that he doesn't hear high end hifi that sounds just like live music. He probably hasn't thought it through. Typical blogger. IMHO (I have I think stated elsewhere) it is not necessarily the hifi's fault if we don't think it sounds the same as live music. Even a perfect hifi will fail this test, unless you put it each side of a live musician, in your home, and 'blind switch'. I remember adverts released about some large floorstander speakers where they did that test of live performer to speaker switch Not sure if it was Osborne ?
maxspl Posted August 1, 2013 Posted August 1, 2013 Duntech did those ads with the sovereign. I believe the ad line was . "even a professor couldn't tell them apart".
Full Range Posted August 1, 2013 Author Posted August 1, 2013 Duntech did those ads with the sovereign. I believe the ad line was . "even a professor couldn't tell them apart". Ahh that's right - thanks to your memory
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