Need some advice upgrading old system

[Miguel01]

G'day everyone

I'm starting this thread just to get some opinions on what might be the next best step in upgrading my system. In advance I'm not an expert, and relied on the store heavily when I bought my system. Here is the list of equipment I have had since 2007 it consists of:

Rotel RCD 1072 CD player

Rotel RC 1070 Pre amp

Rotel RMB 1075 Power

Monitor audio GS60 gold Floor standers

Martin Logan Decent subwoofer.

When I first purchased this system the sound was unbelievable, I love my electronic music and the bass used to be just mind blowing. I also believe the towers used to sound better as well. I'm not sure if over the years I have become used to it or parts are just needing repair or replacement. Either way I decided I want to spend some money trying to get back that jaw dropping sound or hopefully improving it. My first thought was to have everything looked at by an audio repair shop and have drivers or parts replaced as needed. I also was interested in going down the DAC path with a NAD 51/OR 5 combo. Though as I've read more about my gear I think maybe the rotel gear is the weak link? The rotel power amp is wired so I'm using 4 channels to power the GS60, so going along this path of thought I have been looking at a new Pre amp and power amp combo for the system. I also know my cables could be improved so ill be looking to replace them as well.

My ideal budget is around $7000 though I can push it a bit further but it would have to be worth it! So really I want to have that "wow" factor back and improve the sound quality of my system, I also want to be confident I can play my music loud and not damage my equipment. One brand I have been looking at is Primare with a Primare PRE32/A34.2 Combo, or the PRE32 paired with A32 power amp. Im not sure if the A32 would match my speakers but I like the idea of having a decent amp that will hold me in good stead for speaker upgrades in the future. Which I think would be the next step down the line a new pair of floor standing speakers, so I want to have the amps sorted.

So any advice would be greatly appreciated or options I might not have considered. Or if the rotel gear is ok and something else is better replaced I would want to know. Or if I have no idea what I'm talking about please tell me I have till November to decide since I'm overseas till then with defence so I have plenty of time to consider my options, though the wait is going to kill me!

 

Cheers

Mick

 

 

 

 

 

[Newman]

Hi, that is a nice system! 

 

My first thought was to have everything looked at by an audio repair shop and have drivers or parts replaced as needed. 

 

That is a very good idea. Well worth while IMHO. Especially since your music once sounded mind blowing but no more, maybe something has gone wrong.

 

Have you changed anything that led to the lessening of satisfaction?

 

I'm also wondering how you have integrated the sub? How is it hooked up, crossed over, and eq'd or otherwise integrated?

[Guest fordgtlover]

Fortunately, stereo gear doesn't really 'degrade' as such; at least not over six or so years from new. Many people here have gear in regular use that's 20, 30 or more years old.

 

My suspicion is - as you said - that you are just used to it now, and like many of us you are looking for a new buzz. You are seeking that same excitement you had when you first got your gear. You are among sympathetic friends here

 

By all means put you gear in for a service, but I feel that will mostly entail the service guy blowing the dust out and closing it back up. Unless you think there is something wrong with the GS60s that needs fixing (odd farting noises or lacking top end or such) I wouldn't bother lugging them to the repair shop (six years old isn't very old for speakers).

 

In terms of your gear, it is all still very good. Pre amps and amps haven't changed since 2007 so an upgrade is likely to yield very little improvement. The Monitor Audio speakers are still highly regarded. And, the Rotel is still a good CD player in its class.

 

In my view, there are two areas that are likely to yield the most noticeable changes to what you are currently running. DACs have changed a lot over the past six years. You could consider looking at an external DAC for you CD player. $2,000 will get you something very nice.

 

A good starting point for the discussion on DACs might be the Audiolab M DAC ($1,100), the NAD M51 ($1,500) or the Chord Chordette QuteHD ($1,800)

 

The second area is your speakers. While the GS60s are still highly regarded, you may be looking for something that sounds a little (or a lot) different to give you that new buzz. There are plenty of choices out there. Try out some new speakers and possibly look to trade in you GS60s on the new ones.

 

I can't offer any specific speaker options, but you can find plenty of information here and on the web - brands like Proac, Usher, B&W, Harbeth, Thiel, Sonus Faber, Spendor, PMC, Magnepan, Zu and Australia's own Lenehan, Osborn, SGR, VAF, Equinox, Duntech...

 

YMMV and IMHO, but that's how I would be looking to spend $7,000 if I were in your shoes. No doubt, others will have different views.

 

 

EDIT: The Primare pre and power amps are balanced. There is much debate about the value of balanced gear in a domestic setting, but for one thing it is more expensive than single ended gear. Balanced equipment is typically used by professionals in electrically noisy studio and live concert environments to counteract the electrical noise of cables running over each other on long cable runs - neither of these scenarios typically apply in a domestic setting; therefore, zero benefit.

Edited June 23, 2013 by fordgtlover

[eman]

I would hardly call new gear from 2007 'old'.

 

Have you moved house or the room where you have it set up ?

 

As well as just getting used to it maybe the 'room dynamics' have changed.

[Miguel01]

^{Hi, that is a nice system!} 

 

 

^{That is a very good idea. Well worth while IMHO. Especially since your music once sounded mind blowing but no more, maybe something has gone wrong.}

 

^{Have you changed anything that led to the lessening of satisfaction?}

 

^{I'm also wondering how you have integrated the sub? How is it hooked up, crossed over, and eq'd or otherwise integrated?}

 

^{Cheers mate it has been my pride and joy for many years! It has changed rooms over the years and when i lived in Townsville it was in a much larger room that was tiled which made a big difference compared to the room i have it in now. This room is a lot smaller and is fairly crowded with furniture and stuff as im about to move it all to adelaide when i get home. As for the sub i dont have any extra crossovers or anything one of the RCA channels is split with one set going to the subs inputs, im not sure if this is ideal or not.}

 

 

^{Fortunately, stereo gear doesn't really 'degrade' as such; at least not over six or so years from new. Many people here have gear in regular use that's 20, 30 or more years old.}

 

^{My suspicion is - as you said - that you are just used to it now, and like many of us you are looking for a new buzz. You are seeking that same excitement you had when you first got your gear. You are among sympathetic friends here}

 

^{By all means put you gear in for a service, but I feel that will mostly entail the service guy blowing the dust out and closing it back up. Unless you think there is something wrong with the GS60s that needs fixing (odd farting noises or lacking top end or such) I wouldn't bother lugging them to the repair shop (six years old isn't very old for speakers).}

 

^{In terms of your gear, it is all still very good. Pre amps and amps haven't changed since 2007 so an upgrade is likely to yield very little improvement. The Monitor Audio speakers are still highly regarded. And, the Rotel is still a good CD player in its class.}

 

^{In my view, there are two areas that are likely to yield the most noticeable changes to what you are currently running. DACs have changed a lot over the past six years. You could consider looking at an external DAC for you CD player. $2,000 will get you something very nice.}

 

^{A good starting point for the discussion on DACs might be the Audiolab M DAC ($1,100), the NAD M51 ($1,500) or the Chord Chordette QuteHD ($1,800)}

 

^{The second area is you speakers. While the GS60s are still highly regarded, you may be looking for something that sounds a little (or a lot) different to give you that new buzz. There are plenty of choices out there. Try out some new speakers and possibly look to trade in you GS60s on the new ones.}

 

^{I can't offer any specific speaker options, but you can find plenty of information here and on the web - brands like Proac, Usher, B&W, Harbeth, Thiel, Sonus Faber, Spendor, PMC, Magnepan, Zu and Australia's own Lenehan, Osborn, SGR, VAF, Equinox, Duntech...}

 

^{YMMV and IMHO, but that's how I would be looking to spend $7,000 if I were in your shoes. No doubt, others will have different views.}

 

 

^{EDIT: The Primare pre and power amps are balanced. There is much debate about the value of balanced gear in a domestic setting, but for one thing it is more expensive than single ended gear. Balanced equipment is typically used by professionals in electrically noisy studio and live concert environments to counteract the electrical noise of cables running over each other on long cable runs - neither of these scenarios typically apply in a domestic setting; therefore, zero benefit.}

 

^{haha i was hoping i would get some sympathy here i tell friends or family and even the mrs that i want to tinker with the stereo and spend more money and they cant belive it! thats what i was worried about with the service i didnt want to pay top dollar for someone to just say its fine. The sub how ever i think has to be done, im fairly sure it is damaged. its hard to explain but at certain volumes or maby freqs? it will stop making sound and kinda of struggle or make an almost "hollow sound" and like its not responding properly. its hard to explain and im still a rookie haha but i can avoid this if i keep the levels down though when i had it initialy it would handle anything i threw at it and seemed to be working within its limits. I think in townsville when it was in the big tiled room it was hard to get the bass to be noticable and i may have damaged it. As for the monitor gs60's the middle and lower ranges they produce still sounds really good its just highs that sometimes can be a bit "bright" is it? say i have the music at a volume where bass and mids sound great but the highs are a bit to much. though this is only on some recordings and i have read they are like that so perhaps there is nothing wrong there. The DAC option is certainly still on the cards though i would really want to be happy with the system again before i added the new source. The chord and the NAD are two i have been looking into allready so that is good! I was looking at using a USB converter aswell is this worth the money? Will a DAC though provide a different type of sound for my system? or even better quality?  or is it more like having the convenience of the computer and acces to streams ect with the same sound i might get from my cd player? I hadnt considered getting new speakers as i thought the amps were the problem so that gives me something else to look into haha}

 

^{I would hardly call new gear from 2007 'old'.}

 

^{Have you moved house or the room where you have it set up ?}

 

^{As well as just getting used to it maybe the 'room dynamics' have changed.}

^{Yeah thats my bad with the old comment! i guess because i was having dramas i thought they equipment must be getting on. As i said in my first reply the system has moved around alot and even though i know nothing about setting up a room properly the room its in now probly isnt ideal so i think i have some ground to gain there by fixing that}

[Miguel01]

sorry about the small font and thanks for the replies guys im enjoying theory crafting about my system alot

cheers

[LowkeyOperations]

Sounds like you are hearing room nodes when you describe the sub. Bass frequencies bouncing around will add to and subtract from each other causing peaks and dips. If you walk around the room does the bass response change quite a bit? Repositioning the sub will change the location of the dips, but bass traps will be the best way to control them assuming you can live with the appearance.

Rotel are known to be on the bright side of neutral, so that might be cause of the brightness...

I'd get the sub checked but wait until you have moved before doing anything else. Rooms have a massive effect on the sound, you might be lucky and get a much better result in Adelaide. If you're getting the same issues there then start looking at the gear (after you have tried various positions for your speaker and sub). Subs are notoriously difficult to integrate at the best of times, in a problematic and untreated room they are just about impossible.

[Guest fordgtlover]

Yep - sounds like you need to get the sub looked at.

 

As to the GS60s, the Monitor Audios do have a reputation for being a bit too bright for some (bright is the right word). That's the speaker they are. If that's something that you aren't a big fan of, that might be your reason to crossgrade/upgrade. Some people suggest trying to adjust the nature of speakers by using different cables or amps. There are different schools of thoughts on this matter. I am in the camp that says if there is something about a component you don't like, it's probably the wrong component and you should get a different one.

 

Your CD player has a SPDIF output, which means that you would plug an SPDIF cable between that and your new DAC's SPDIF input and then take the signal from the DAC output to your pre amp. The new DAC literally takes over the Digital to Analogue Conversion (DAC) role from the CD player.

 

USB input is an increasingly popular feature on DACs. USB allows you to plug your computer directly in to the DAC. There are other devices that you can use to off board the USB conversion, but they are system tweaks rather than fundamental building blocks. All of the DACs I mentioned have USB and SPDIF inputs so you can start by plugging your CD player into it and then extend it to computer audio via USB if you want.

 

Your CD player uses an older DAC chip. As I said, DACs have evolved quite a bit in 6 years. DACs and computer audio with USB interfaces are the fastest evolving areas of audio at the moment (it is suggested by some that to get the same quality sound 6 years ago as the DACs mentioned you would have needed to spend 10x the $). So, it will almost certainly provide a different sound to your CD player. Will it be better? Better is subjective so only your ears can judge that. Many people still prefer the older style DACs - they say they sound less 'digital'.

 

As to system tweaks, such as cables and USB converters and power supplies and such, my opinion is that you get the best bang for buck by sorting out the core components and then use these other things to tweak your system rather than trying to fix system deficiencies with tweaks. Car analogy - it would be like trying to transform the handling of your Toyota Camry into a Toyota 86 by putting ultra expensive tyres on the Camry. The best way to make you car handle like a Toyota 86 is to buy a Toyota 86 (or Subaru BRZ and tweak it).

 

In terms of the sound of any system, my view is that your speakers will have the single biggest impact on the overall system sound. The second biggest impact on sound is the room you run your system in (the sound waves bounce around you room and become part of what you are listening to - for better or worse, as they say)

 

There's a room acoustics sub forum here:

http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/forum/26-room-acoustics-tweaks/

 

So maybe wait until after you move to Adelaide and then setup your system and see how it sounds then.

 

As with anything in this hobby, others will have different experiences and opinions to offer.

Edited June 23, 2013 by fordgtlover

[Newman]

OK I didn't realise you just wanted sympathy for a $7k spend, I am the wrong person to come to for that reason. Instead, I will always suggest ways to continue enjoying and refining a system that is obviously a good system.

 

^{As for the sub i dont have any extra crossovers or anything one of the RCA channels is split with one set going to the subs inputs, im not sure if this is ideal or not.}

 

OK there is a problem here. You need to split both the RCA channels and send them both to the subs.

 

 

The sub how ever i think has to be done, im fairly sure it is damaged. its hard to explain but at certain volumes or maby freqs? it will stop making sound and kinda of struggle or make an almost "hollow sound" and like its not responding properly.

 

 

That is exactly I would expect if only one channel is fed to the sub. See solution above

 

 

As for the monitor gs60's the middle and lower ranges they produce still sounds really good its just highs that sometimes can be a bit "bright" is it? say i have the music at a volume where bass and mids sound great but the highs are a bit to much. 

 

 

Well lucky for you, the GS60 has biamp connections and you are running them biamped! All you need to do is turn down the treble amp until the tonal balance sounds 'just right'. This is not a crime, in fact many high-priced speakers have the treble output a touch lower than the rest. 

 

Oh, no, I just remembered you are after sympathy for a $7k spend. Sorry! Just ignore me. :)

 

 

P.S. since you moved the system and the sound is not so hot now, just double check all the speaker cables are in phase, a suggestion.

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

Rooms and speakers are, far and away, the biggest influence on any sound system. Everything else is small change, by comparison. Focus on the two important things and worry about the rest later on. If you need proof, then see if you can borrow a known very good amp and preamp (my choice would be an ME850 + ME preamp (any model)) and see what happens. I doubt you will hear a dramatic improvement. Certainly you'll some changes, but nothing like the difference room changes or speaker changes will make. I'll also echo other statements about the Rotel CD. Nice unit. You'll need to drop a fair chunk of change to better it.

[Guest fordgtlover]

OK I didn't realise you just wanted sympathy for a $7k spend, I am the wrong person to come to for that reason. Instead, I will always suggest ways to continue enjoying and refining a system that is obviously a good system.

 

 

OK there is a problem here. You need to split both the RCA channels and send them both to the subs.

 

 

 

 

That is exactly I would expect if only one channel is fed to the sub. See solution above

 

 

 

 

 

Well lucky for you, the GS60 has biamp connections and you are running them biamped! All you need to do is turn down the treble amp until the tonal balance sounds 'just right'. This is not a crime, in fact many high-priced speakers have the treble output a touch lower than the rest. 

 

Oh, no, I just remembered you are after sympathy for a $7k spend. Sorry! Just ignore me. :)

 

 

P.S. since you moved the system and the sound is not so hot now, just double check all the speaker cables are in phase, a suggestion.

 

I laughed , but I agree.

 

I do like the biamping and reduced treble solution - great idea.

 

Edited June 23, 2013 by fordgtlover

[Miguel01]

wow so many replies thanks everyone i think everyones opinions has kinda of pulled me on line to try and make better use of my current set up and tweak it before I look at upgrading any parts. Its not as exciting i guess but if i can get that wow factor out of my current set up i can save the cash for down the road.

 

Newman - with the sub i think i made a mistake there and it is two rcas that are split, its hard to remember everything when i cant just poke my head behind my system. So im fairly sure its wired up that way. but i wont be able to check for sure until im home. But ill deffinatley make checking all the connections something ill do.

 

fordgtlover - cheers again for all the info my cd player dosnt have spdif but has Coax would this be much the same? i think now i understand i can run my cd player through a new DAC to my pre amp makes good sense for an upgrade. though im going to try and tinker with the room and such first and see if i can get my sound back to where it used to be.

 

so i guess now my priorities will be

 

having the sub looked at / repaired if i cant resolve the issues with position in the room

moving the gs60's around also to see if i can improve the sound

if i can get better sound via those means ill look into a good DAC to run my cd player through and sit on that for a while before i go looking at new speakers ect

if i cant get the sound im after ill put the DAC on hold and maby consider auditioning new towers

 

Just another thought since im really only interested in stere sound and dont want a 5.1 set up, is my power amp going to hold me in good stead into the future if i want to try new floor standers. i guess this depends on the speakers ect and is a very open question, i mean is it better to have a power amp that is 2 channel and designed for that purpose? or  using 4 channels off my current amp to drive the speakers is fine?

 

i feel a bit silly now for having wanted to upgrade my stereo when there was so many options to maby get more out of it as is. as a general rule when does everyone feel the need to upgrade? i guess its very personal but im interested in everyones thought process!

 

cheers

mick

[Newman]

Oh, please don't feel silly for wanting to upgrade. It's called lust and we are all entitled to feel it. I WANT TO UPGRADE, I REALLY DO!!

 

Do whatever rows your boat I was just giving an option, and I'm glad you thought it is helpful.

 

Are you thinking to try turning down the tweeter amps a tad?

 

I can't see much wrong with your power amp for future speakers unless they are particularly difficult speakers to drive. Especially as your 5-channel amp gives you the option to bi-amp, as you have obviously noticed.

[Guest fordgtlover]

Yep. The coax connection is the digital output on the CD player. Sorry for the confusing terminology.

 

When the time comes you might consider buying a coaxial digital audio cable from somewhere like Blue Jeans Cable - $20 plus freight for a very competent cable.

http://www.bluejeanscable.com/store/digital-audio/index.htm

 

I have way more headphones that I need simply because I wanted to try different ones.

 

It is worth noting that like many problems in life, throwing money at an audio system won't magically make it a good system. Not all cheap systems sound bad and not all expensive systems sound good.

[kesa32]

Correct me if I'm wrong , but I used to check my mid bass/ bass drivers by gently pushing on them with my fingers / thumb spread over the dust cap to see if there was any rubbing noises etc ( once had this in a set of b&w's , back in the 80's pushing them too hard with a big pre/ pwr over over a couple of years lol)

So l guess what I'm trying to say is you can quickly check your sub/ bass drivers to check that the coils are ok etc ( this is just a quick and dirty check, )

[Miguel01]

^{cheers mate i will keep that cable in mind when i have to buy one!}

 

 

^{Oh, please don't feel silly for wanting to upgrade. It's called lust and we are all entitled to feel it. I WANT TO UPGRADE, I REALLY DO!!}

 

^{Do whatever rows your boat I was just giving an option, and I'm glad you thought it is helpful.}

 

^{Are you thinking to try turning down the tweeter amps a tad?}

 

^{I can't see much wrong with your power amp for future speakers unless they are particularly difficult speakers to drive. Especially as your 5-channel amp gives you the option to bi-amp, as you have obviously noticed.}

^{sorry for my ignorance but by turning down tweeter amps you mean on the pre amp? or somewhere else? on my pre amp i only have a contour knob that has 4 settings, from my manual this is what it says:}

 

^{OFF: the tone contour circuits are bypassed}

^{to ensure the purest possible sound.}

^{L-1: moderate increase in bass frequencies}

^{(typically +3dB @ 100Hz).}

^{L-2: more increase in bass frequencies (typically}

^{+4dB @ 100Hz).}

^{H: moderate increase in high frequencies}

^{(+3dB @ 10kHz).}

^{LH: combination of L-2 bass and H high frequency}

^increases.

 

^{I have played with this before but i never really left it on one setting for any period of time since i wasnt sure what i was doing stuffing around with freqs so i left it be to be safe. If i can adjust the tweeters any other way id love to know!}

 

^cheers

Edited June 23, 2013 by horrie

[Newman]

No, it looks like I'm the silly one. I assumed there was a level control on each channel of the power amp, and you could turn down the level going to the tweeters. 

 

Maybe you could run preamp Output 2 to the tweeter channels of the power amp, and put an attenuator (volume pot or stepped attenuator) on the interconnect cable from Output 2 to power amp. The attenuator can be diy or just buy one like this or this or this.

 

cheers

[Miguel01]

ahh no worries thanks for the links mate gives me some more stuff to look at and read up on, and also consider when i get home! thanks for the help everyone i didnt expect so many replies so it was awesom. ill kick around the forums now trying to learn as much as i can when i get home i might post in this thread and let everyone know what i got up too! such a long wait though its going to kill me haha

[Guest fordgtlover]

Keep us up to date

 

Cheers

[Timos]

Horrie,

 

I would suggest, when you get to the new digs, play around with placement and room treatments and go from there.  That way, the room is the first point of adjustment and is free (aside from treatments obviously) and your equipment can do it's job before you decide to replace it.

 

Just my two bobs worth - although the upgrade bug is..... well....  untreatable really.

 

Timos.

[Miguel01]

Horrie,

 

I would suggest, when you get to the new digs, play around with placement and room treatments and go from there.  That way, the room is the first point of adjustment and is free (aside from treatments obviously) and your equipment can do it's job before you decide to replace it.

 

Just my two bobs worth - although the upgrade bug is..... well....  untreatable really.

 

Timos.

cheers mate yeah i will def be giving the room treating a go! the bug is still there but ill wait till ive tried all these other things first

[Keith Anderson]

I have MA's as well and they are very detailed in the top end, I love there sound, I'm not sure about Rotel's sound, are they a bright amp? but I use mine with Rega gear and they are lovely. I personally think along the lines of amps do make a difference, they are not all the same and each manufacture has a signature sound. I just tried the new Rega Elicit-R and it has way more dynamics, control, sound stage etc than my Brio-R but it still sounds like a Rega. and though the MA's sounds devine.

 

When the new amps available, i listened to a demo I would try to have a listen to one with your MA's, it may just smooth out the top end nicely for you. 

[Timos]

Possibly a demo of a Rega DAC could be worth a listen as well just to get an idea of the difference in dynamics.