Krispy Audio Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Hi everyone - I'm hoping to get some assistance regarding tonearm/cart matching. I'm trying to determine the best cart for a particular application, and I usually utilise Vinyl Engine as a starting point. I thought I'd look at the perennial Denon DL-103, but looking at the table you'd need an 'off-the-scale' effective arm mass of over 30g just to achieve an acceptable result. http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Denon+DL103R&cm=8.5&dc=5&search=search I'm working with an arm mass of either 13g or 5g. Am I missing something here, or is there another variable that needs to be considered? Thanks in advance.
cheekyboy Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Hi Cameron, What is the mass of the tonearm you're using? Edit: Okay, I see you have a choice of 13g or 5g. Cheers, Keith Edited June 20, 2013 by cheekyboy
Krispy Audio Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 Thanks for the PM Keith, makes more sense using a compliance of 10.
Guest Muon Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 Is that with the 5g arm? This compliance stuff messes with my head
lovetube Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Hi everyone - I'm hoping to get some assistance regarding tonearm/cart matching. I'm trying to determine the best cart for a particular application, and I usually utilise Vinyl Engine as a starting point. I thought I'd look at the perennial Denon DL-103, but looking at the table you'd need an 'off-the-scale' effective arm mass of over 30g just to achieve an acceptable result. http://www.vinylengine.com/cartridge_resonance_evaluator_results.php?m=Denon+DL103R&cm=8.5&dc=5&search=search I'm working with an arm mass of either 13g or 5g. Am I missing something here, or is there another variable that needs to be considered? Thanks in advance. good Day. with the Denon 103 , you need pretty high mass arm . 30g plus to get this cartridge sing . your arm mass will not get best result out of the 103 . regards Lovetube Edited June 20, 2013 by lovetube
Krispy Audio Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 Thanks for the assistance guys. Wow 30g seems extremely heavy.
Guest Muon Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 OK, let me see if I have this correct, low compliance means the suspension is stiffer? meaning for higher mass in the arm?
metal beat Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) Hi Cameron Try adding a headshell weight. That should get the arm to sing better with the 103 if you do not like what is happening now. If you are using your unipivot, the 103 may not be a great match Always a bit of a crap shoot of what is supposed to work re compliance/resonance and what actually works. Sometime you just have to try. Edited June 20, 2013 by turntable
andyr Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) OK, let me see if I have this correct, low compliance means the suspension is stiffer? meaning for higher mass in the arm? I think that's right ... so I will be delighted if someone else with more technical knowledge than me, kicks in. (But, df, what we don't want is someone who is totally A-about-T to chip in with their (misguided) opinion! ) Regards, Andy Edited June 20, 2013 by andyr
Krispy Audio Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 High compliance = softer, lower compliance = harder. The harder it is, the more tonearm mass you want so that the 'suspension' can do its job, ie the cartridge can track well. I haven't got a 103, I would just like to try one at some point but not if I have to load my arm up too much.
Guest Muon Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 How could anyone possibly be A-about-T, I thought they were nearly plug-n-play like a CD player :o
Guest Muon Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 (edited) High compliance = softer, lower compliance = harder. The harder it is, the more tonearm mass you want so that the 'suspension' can do its job, ie the cartridge can track well. I haven't got a 103, I would just like to try one at some point but not if I have to load my arm up too much. Ok, now....we look at dynamic compliance because that is the one that is most telling....right? So all I need now is to clear up what constitutes low and high...........when looking at the Denon it is stated as Compliance: 5x10-6cm/dyne (100Hz) and I assume (even if I hate to assume) that is dynamic. And just for comparison the 2M Bronze is Compliance, dynamic, lateral 22 µm/mN..............now do we have here a compliance of 10 v 22 and the 10 being lower (stiffer)? Gee, this is long over due for me to get my head around Edit: I wish specs conformed to one standard measure... Edited June 20, 2013 by datafone
lovetube Posted June 20, 2013 Posted June 20, 2013 High compliance = softer, lower compliance = harder. The harder it is, the more tonearm mass you want so that the 'suspension' can do its job, ie the cartridge can track well. I haven't got a 103, I would just like to try one at some point but not if I have to load my arm up too much. this sucker just love the high mass arm . medium mass will do but preferably high mass. you will find it sound weid when it not mounted in the right arm . Lovetube
Krispy Audio Posted June 20, 2013 Author Posted June 20, 2013 I was originally confused because they state the Denon at 5 but measured at 100Hz rather than 10. I get that, but didn't know how to convert so I'm comparing apples to apples. The advice I'm given is that it would rate at 10um (@10Hz) which is better, but still pushing it for what I need. I'm going back to Benz
Hergest Posted June 21, 2013 Posted June 21, 2013 This isn't advice to Cameron as he's wisely staying with the Benz but just my own experience with compliance that might be of interest. I learnt the hard way about compliance when i bought the Phase Tech P3 cartridge. Looking at it in the box before it was mounted it looked as stiff as. I gently pushed the cantilever with the end of a stylus brush and there was virtually no give. When i mounted it on a SME IV tonearm it sounded great at first but when i started playing really dynamic lps it was hopeless at tracking the groove. After seeing that the compliance specs were really low i spent ages with my head spinning reading all about, and trying to understand compliance which i never did quite get the grasp of. What i ended up doing though as the cartridge showed such promise was to try it on a much heavier Ortofon arm, then with a heavier headshell. then with a extra heavy balance weight and since then another 2 headshells each one heavier. With each increase in weight there has been a fairly dramatic and obvious improvement. The first improvement was in basic tracking when i went to the Ortofon arm and since then each increase in effective mass has made the treble response smoother and more extended, the bass more powerful and firm and the midrange gloriously natural. In other words i would never use a low compliance cartridge on anything but an arm with a significant effective mass. It might work and sound good but i don't believe you would get anywhere near the potential of the cartridge.
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