eyesofra Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) Hey guys, I've been reading a bit bout amplifier output stages and some theories on why tube amps are more pleasing than comparable solid-state designs. (Was a bit of fun reading all this stuffs again, the last time was in Uni like 14 years ago Anway, it appears the presence and dominance of even order harmonics (which apparently blends much better with music then odd ordered ones) are suggested as one of the primary reasons for that warm and pleasing tube sound. I'm sure there would be more than just this such as feedback etc. Now, from what I know and from what I've been reading over the last few days , a complimentary push-pull design inherently cancels out the even ordred harmonics and gives rise to the unpleasant odd ordered harmonics in the output stage. Whatever harmonics present via its input does get amplified but the amplifier itself filters out it's own even harmonics. WIth this being the case, how does a push-pull tube amplifier sound tubey? What other factors come to play? no feedback etc? Would it be better than to have a proper SET pre-amplifier feeding a Class AB amplifier to get the best of both worlds? The harmonics from the SET and the power and control of a AB or a D amp? Appreciate your thoughts and opinions Edited June 16, 2013 by eyesofra
LogicprObe Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 The output transformer has a lot to do with it too. 1
Guest Muon Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) You can get different sounds from different push-pull amps, like the sound of a triode (or triode strapped) push-pull sounds very different to a push-pull pentode circuit with all other things equal. Different tubes will sound different in this respect too, some are more linear than others by their design. I have heard push-pull anywhere from warm and lush...through to clean and precise. So many variables that can effect the end result... Just my 2c from my limited experience. Edit: Sorry this doesn't answer the questions you have specifically asked, but I fear I'll flounder a bit if I try and get into the tech side....where Earle? Edited June 16, 2013 by datafone
LogicprObe Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 Well, often people go for a tubed pre and SS power stage.
andyr Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 Hey guys, I've been reading a bit bout amplifier output stages and some theories on why tube amps are more pleasing than comparable solid-state designs. (Was a bit of fun reading all this stuffs again, the last time was in Uni like 14 years ago Anway, it appears the presence and dominance of even order harmonics (which apparently blends much better with music then odd ordered ones) are suggested as one of the primary reasons for that warm and pleasing tube sound. Now, from what I know and from what I've been reading over the last few days , a complimentary push-pull design inherently cancels out the even ordred harmonics and gives rise to the unpleasant odd ordered harmonics in the output stage. Whatever harmonics present via its input does get amplified but the amplifier itself filters out its own even harmonics. WIth this being the case, how does a push-pull tube amplifier sound tubey? What other factors come to play? no feedback etc? Would it be better than to have a proper SET pre-amplifier feeding a Class AB amplifier to get the best of both worlds? The harmonics from the SET and the power and control of a AB or a D amp? Appreciate your thoughts and opinions You need to be aware that, if you know what you're doing (as an amp designer), you can build in 2nd harmonic distortion into a ss amp's harmonic profile. But, yes, IMO a tube pre coupled with a good ss power amp is the optimum. Regards, Andy
Guest Muon Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 .Tube amps can have bass grip, but many don't. The tube pre and SS power combo can work well though.
Nada Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 ....... it appears the presence and dominance of even order harmonics (which apparently blends much better with music then odd ordered ones) are suggested as one of the primary reasons for that warm and pleasing tube sound. THD and IHD distortion measurements on Stereophile preamps do not support the theory of tube "warmth" emanating from even order harmonics Would it be better than to have a proper SET pre-amplifier feeding a Class AB amplifier to get the best of both worlds? This combo can work very nicely. Many like it. Not all SET preamps sound fat and tubey. I use a Tram 2 pre which has a single DHT amp stage. Its sounds open and fast with a holographic sound stage. DHTs are known for very low distortion and linearity in the right circuit. I hope you find the sound you like.
Once was an audiophile Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 (edited) .Tube amps can have bass grip, but many don't. The tube pre and SS power combo can work well though. The tube pre and SS power supply for a tube amp can work well though Edited June 16, 2013 by kajak12
eyesofra Posted June 16, 2013 Author Posted June 16, 2013 emmm, so maybe that's what I should do than I've got a NAD M51 which as u'll know is a preamp as well. And I'm looking at gettin a power amp for it . My options were : 1) Prima Luna Prologue Premium EL34 Push-pull amp ( 40wx2 ) which apparently takes KT120s 2) A SS power amp from the likes of emotiva or anything decent in around aud1500 range . What would be a better option ? I'm thinkin along the lines of gettin an SS amp and drive them directly off the NAD . And when the ugrade bug resurfaces, add a SET preamp in the chain for that bit of tube coloration By the way , what options do we have for nice single ended tube preamps which doesn't break the bank ? thanks guys
lovetube Posted June 16, 2013 Posted June 16, 2013 Hey guys, I've been reading a bit bout amplifier output stages and some theories on why tube amps are more pleasing than comparable solid-state designs. (Was a bit of fun reading all this stuffs again, the last time was in Uni like 14 years ago Anway, it appears the presence and dominance of even order harmonics (which apparently blends much better with music then odd ordered ones) are suggested as one of the primary reasons for that warm and pleasing tube sound. I'm sure there would be more than just this such as feedback etc. Now, from what I know and from what I've been reading over the last few days , a complimentary push-pull design inherently cancels out the even ordred harmonics and gives rise to the unpleasant odd ordered harmonics in the output stage. Whatever harmonics present via its input does get amplified but the amplifier itself filters out it's own even harmonics. WIth this being the case, how does a push-pull tube amplifier sound tubey? What other factors come to play? no feedback etc? Would it be better than to have a proper SET pre-amplifier feeding a Class AB amplifier to get the best of both worlds? The harmonics from the SET and the power and control of a AB or a D amp? Appreciate your thoughts and opinions Hi. I wouldn't state push pull valves sound warm or tubey . they can sound fast and dynamic like hell . ( NFB or no NFB ) included . what I can say is that the Tone of tubes amp in general are different than the tone of solid state amp . like anything's in the chain . tube amps can sound very bad to excellent .same apply to the solid state amps . so my advice to you is go out and listen to as many amps as possible , if you want tube amp then focus on those amp . this way you can hear for your self how different each type of amps sound to you and go from there . don't jump in conclusion that tube amp must sound good , warm and tubey . if you are ever come to Melb then I welcome you to my listening room and listen to my SET amp and PP amp with big horn speakers system that can review everything's the amp has to give . Lovetube PS: don't ever buy an amp just because it look good . we not buying for look . we want good sound . otherwise we shouldn't not buy any . last but not least . read is only for reference . reality is a different thing's. 1
eyesofra Posted June 16, 2013 Author Posted June 16, 2013 true....I'm forgetting the entire rule of thumb of listening to a device rather than just reading bout it ..lol But I needed a starting point hence this thread and thanks for the offer 'lovetube' might take on that when I get a chance to get to Melb again for work.
davewantsmoore Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 Different ratios of harmonic distortion. Typically a pp amplifier will cancel out even order harmonic distortion.
Bronal Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 What a pity you need a power amp. I have a Mystere IA21 that I'll be listing (40 wpc with EL34s, 50 wpc with KT88s) that would suit your needs perfectly. And It's in the ACT!
pulinap Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 (edited) "PS: don't ever buy an amp just because it look good . we not buying for look . we want good sound . otherwise we shouldn't not buy any . last but not least . read is only for reference . reality is a different thing's." Duc I thought you were my friend......!!!! Is this a lame excuse to build ugly looking amps....? Edited June 17, 2013 by pulinap
lovetube Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 "PS: don't ever buy an amp just because it look good . we not buying for look . we want good sound . otherwise we shouldn't not buy any . last but not least . read is only for reference . reality is a different thing's." Duc I thought you were my friend......!!!! Is this a lame excuse to build ugly looking amps....? hehehe. I wouldn't say your amps is ugly P . good enough Duc
Batty Posted June 17, 2013 Posted June 17, 2013 .Tube amps can have bass grip, but many don't. The tube pre and SS power combo can work well though. Just like my Hybrid Copland integrated amp. A couple of ECC88 triodes in the pre and Toshiba transistor output devices. 1
Recommended Posts