The Great SS Versus Valve Showdown

[TP1]

Warning shots were fired in the form of  statements such as " SS amps suck!" and  "no they don't, valve amps suck!"  So  a showdown  was organised and this was  held at my place yesterday. 

 

First system to be heard was mine which consists of ; Source: Accuphase Dp-700 SACD player/DAC, Opera Consonance Reference 7  Music player, Pioneer Exclusive P3 Record Player.  Pre-amp: Ming Da MC-300 Pre ( modified), 4 x MIng Da MC300845-AB valve  Monoblock Power amps,  Minimax Phono stage ( modified), Speakers: Aurum Cantus Grand Supreme (bi-amped). 

 

In this picture you can also see  at ground level Jonesy's  Ayre MX-R Monoblocks  and the stunning preamp by the uber high end swiss company Soulution  - the Soulution 721. Undertaking preamp duties at this point was Andrew's Cary SLP-05 .  behind the acoustic panel to the right of the picture you can also see two transformer boxes. Each one houses a 3KVA fully  balanced transformer  giving a total of 6KVA of clean power.

 

 

 The Cary preamp  was very impressive indeed. it maintained  a very high level of detail , great imaging and proved that you can have all these features with a natural and  and sweet midrange . It also had the added bonus of being fully balanced in design which enabled it to feed the mighty 300 WPC  fully balanced Ayre Monoblocks.  Now  the Ayres are  reputed to combine all the advantages of valves and SS into  the same package, and after the demo, that reputation is indeed well founded.They  had incredible transient response, and speaker control and as you would expect and  produce prodigous and well controlled bass in a way that only true high end SS amps can. Yet the midrange was  probably the sweetest sounding I have heard from an SS amp , and this is class AB!  I don't think the real valve die hard fans were completely convinced to make the change and the big Ming Da Monoblocks can  produce a massive sound stage with superb tonality and timbre.  But  these Ayres are something special and sounded to me better than Class A amps I have heard and   anyone who appreciates the strengths of both formats would be mightily impressed.

 

Next up was the the heavyweight of the afternoon, the Soulution 721 preamp. At around $40K RRP our expectations were high and as it turns out  we were not disappointed! It portrayed a superb sound stage that transcended any valve vs SS thingy and the sound was so "right" that you just wanted to listen to more and more music. A special thanks to Jonesy for his kind offer and massive effort in making his  superb equipment available for the afternoon. 

 

A closer look at the Soulution  and Accuphase.

 

 

 

 

Once setup, it was time to have a cold beer and enjoy the afternoon.

 

 

 

We then had a chance to listen to Grimmmie's AMR DAC with preamp. This  is a remarkable piece of equipment that combines excellent DAC and preamp into the one machine. I noted that it had all the flexibility in terms of DAC  and  playback  options that would appeal to purists and CA diehards alike. It certainly delivered the goods and  it produced a sound that was both natural and detailed - a tall order for any digital music.

 

Tuyen brought along his Silvaweld  pre-amp which are quite rare but enjoy a solid reputation. He has done a few mods and it impressed with its kick-ass dynamics and highly detailed presentation.  The Ming Da MC-300 Pre was brought back into the mix which immediately impressed with its massive soundstage and heightened sense of "air".

 

Tuyen can be seen checking out the Cary  preamp behind the scenes.

 

 

 

People started arriving at around noon and continued on until around 9PM. But before the GTG was over we did have a chance to listen to a couple of  other  amps -  ME-75c and Nakamichi 420 power amps. These are SS amps and although not attempting to compare them to the early contenders, we were interested how they would sound in this setup.  They sounded very good indeed.  To get the Nakamichi's to work with my speakers ( bi-wire or biamp) we used  2 amps that Thommo brought with him - one for each speaker.  We fed 2 Right channel signals into one amp and 2 Left channels into the other.  Each  amp  ( which is a stereo power amp) was then connected to the speakers in a bi-amp scenario. The result was quite impressive and we think that this could be the solution that Thommo is looking for to satisfy his power hungry Sonique speakers.

 

 

All in all and excellent day and one that was enjoyed by all. Thanks again to  everyone for participating  and for bringing gear and  thanks again to Jonesy for  the massive effort  in packing and shifting such heavy and valuable gear.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Tasso

[Bronal]

If it weren't for the booze, the third photo could be a a prayer meeting!

Edited May 26, 2013 by bronal

[Jones99]

Fantastic day and beautifully hosted.A big thanks to Tasso.

While my preferences are well known the opportunity to test gear in a such a relaxed environment is just priceless. I know I learnt a lot on the day.

Look forward to the next GTG.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Jones99

[metal beat]

Sounds like a wonderful day.

 

Tasso, what did you find your wooden platform with footers did for the P3 over just sitting on the cabinet?

 

Cheers

[TP1]

Sounds like a wonderful day.

 

Tasso, what did you find your wooden platform with footers did for the P3 over just sitting on the cabinet?

 

Cheers

 

The sound  opened up a bit, sound stage  became a bit bigger with an  improvement in rendering of delicate details as well as bass.  The differences were not big and nothing like the changes in sonic character you get with other turntables  but  I thought it was still worthwhile.

 

The stands I built are extremely heavy and the shelves are 44 mm thick consisting of  marine grade ply laminated to particleboard. Although I did not detect a problem when I first tried the P3 on there, I thought I'd  experiment after being reminded that the shelf requirements for turntables can often be different for other equipment. My  experiment was with with a makeshift stand made of 25MM ply and 100MM legs - it was easy and quick to make and it was a  cheap way to find out for sure. There was an audible improvement so I then made the platform from solid jarrah.  The best isolation devices I had on hand were Stillpoints  and these seemed to work very well with the graphite bases from Xindak VT1-GP isolation devices ( also on hand). 

[metal beat]

The sound  opened up a bit, sound stage  became a bit bigger with an  improvement in rendering of delicate details as well as bass.  The differences were not big and nothing like the changes in sonic character you get with other turntables  but  I thought it was still worthwhile.

 

The stands I built are extremely heavy and the shelves are 44 mm thick consisting of  marine grade ply laminated to particleboard. Although I did not detect a problem when I first tried the P3 on there, I thought I'd  experiment after being reminded that the shelf requirements for turntables can often be different for other equipment. My  experiment was with with a makeshift stand made of 25MM ply and 100MM legs - it was easy and quick to make and it was a  cheap way to find out for sure. There was an audible improvement so I then made the platform from solid jarrah.  The best isolation devices I had on hand were Stillpoints  and these seemed to work very well with the graphite bases from Xindak VT1-GP isolation devices ( also on hand). 

 

Hi Tasso, I might just try similar with my P3 and see what changes.  As you know, the inbuilt suspension is superb, however like yourself, I have a massive stand holding 3 heavy turntables plus all my other front end stuff.  This may be more to provide a little relief from the massive stand.

 

 

I have Stillpoint Ultras which In can borrow from one of my phono stages.   I can use a shelf from my no longer had solid steel rack with the Stillpoint Ultras underneath.

  Nothing to lose except time.   Now, how am I going to move the bloody heavy P3 :-) 

 

Thanks

[Jones99]

Took the easy options last post not stating my thoughts of the shootout so here they are for better or worse from a SS side...

The Ayre MX-R in my opinion provided far better control and grip of the big Aurums .The dynamics far greater and the mids and highs were just as refined as the big Mingdas in my opinion.

I am still well and truly planted in the SS camp.

The Accuphase is a beautiful and sweet sounding player .I would really like to hear it in my system to compare to the Dac2x and TSDX one day ....if you dont mind Tasso?

I enjoyed the Cary pre with the MXR but ultimately due to my own personal tastes adds a little too much colour for my tastes.I appreciate others may really enjoy this flavour. I would like to try a Preamp like the Cary in my system one day to really make my mind up on tube preamps.

Ultimately the 721 and MXR was the combo I preferred which is no surprise as the sound signature is something I am familiar with.I will be interested to hear other opinions of other attendees.

I missed a few comparisons due to a 40th so thoughts on other comparisons will be followed with interest.

Great day lets do it all again soon.

Cheers

Jones

Edited May 26, 2013 by Jones99

[wolster]

What a joy to listen to such wonderful gear in such a relaxed environment.

As well as hearing the array of top quality amps, and Tasso's new toy, the Accuphase DP-700, I was stoked to get to hear the P3 turntable.

A mighty big turntable with simple lines that sounded sublime.

Many thanks,Tasso. You and your wife were generous hosts.

Good to here that Thomo finally got there after a couple of diversions

I forgot to take the camera but here are some iPhone pics for further drooling pleasure.

 

 

 

 

 

 

[caddisgeek]

Looks like a wonderful set up and a great day

[darthlaker]

Thanks for posting Tasso, looks like a fun day!

 

FYI, I have heard from a very reliable source that there may be a small upgrade for the MX-R's later this year. 

 

This upgrade with further improve the sound in the bass department......

[Steve M]

A big thank you to Tasso and his wife Liane for a great day (and night), we were well catered and lacked for nothing in terms of food and drink! They have a beautiful home near a seaside location and it was gracious of them to open it up for us.

It was an awesome day of audio, superlative gear and in good company. We had been stirring Jonesy up all week via SNA messaging about a valve versus solid state and an analogue vs. digital shoot out. Well we were not to be disappointed and and the comparisons were interesting and closer than I would have thought.

Jonesy is 'the man', has a fantastic system of his own and likes his hi-fi to be to be top notch (a buy once - buy well kind of guy), he had in hand a brace of Nordost Valhalla cables, Soulution 721 solid state preamp and Ayre ss mono bloc amplfiers. The preamp was ridiculously expensive at RRP $45K ...and ridiculously good! The Ayre monos were about $12K if I heard correctly, compact and sleek in construction but like a heavy billet of silver, Class AB and 300w/ch. The amps ran cool most of the time even though Tasso's Aurum Cantus Grand Supreme spkrs are a moderately difficult 89dB/4 ohm load, they got slightly warm later on in the afternoon.

We started by listening to the Mingda MC300B valve preamp which Tasso had been modding with Duelund capacitors and Shuguang Treasure 300B tubes, it sounded excellent and reminded me of my Supratek pre because of they share a 300B tube circuit, it's strengths being a firm fleshed out lower midrange. Then we went to the two box Cary SLP-05 valve preamp using a brace of 6SN7 tubes, I think about $5.5K RRP. This Cary sounded clear and sweet and we all liked it a lot.

Following these tube units was the expensive Soulution 721 solid state preamplifier. This thing was surprising to me, I was expecting the usual neutral and reserved sounding ss signature, but the first impression was an analogue calmness that it brought about to Tasso's system. For me the listening session became immediately relaxed - with a high level of extreme refinement. It was for me what I like best about valves combined with a strong sense of correctness.

Then came Grimmie's AMR-777 DAC and combined preamp designed by the esteemed Thorsten Loesch. A flexible little beast that lets you switch between two types of DACs and a tube preamp included, about $5K RRP. This unit sounded very nice and was probably the most valvey sound of the night. It had a hard act to follow after the Soulution and the difference was quite stark for me. The accuracy of the Soulution preamp was hard for me to detox out of my head!

The last valve preamp we tried was Tuyen's Silvaweld 1000R from Korea, RRP $9K. This thing is housed in a sleek silver box reminiscent of Nelson Pass gear made from slabs of thick aluminum. It is valve rectified using a 5R4 and a 300B tube in the power supply section and about six smaller tubes 6922 etc in the preamp stage. An unusual design and trust Tuyen to ferret something exotic like this out! I was already aware of its reputation through the Apogee spkr forum that I used to hang out at. Anyway, I thought it sounded fantastically clear and fast, a bit up my ally. Thomo summed it up the best, he thought that it excelled in the upper mids/lower treble whereas the Mingda/Suprateks were good in lower midrange weight. I felt that the Cary preamp was balanced somewhere in between the two sounds.

The comparison between the ss 300w/ch Ayre monos and the 90w/ch Mingda MC300-845 at $6K were not conclusive for me. Yes the Ayres gripped Tasso's spkrs and sounded clean and controlled, but when the Mingdas went back on towards the end of the night there seemed to be a bigger soundstage and a definite firmness through the midrange, at the expense of some bass plumpness with the Mingda.

The night ended with a few of us listening to Tuyen's ME-75 power amp and a pair of vertically biamped 50w/ch Nakamichi 420 power amps. Both these 25yr+ vintage amps kicked major as_ imho and were not shamed in this elite company. The little Naks were tactile and full of life, to me.

Sources on the night were an Accuphase DP-700 SACD/CD player $26K RRP, a massive 45 kg Exclusive P-3 direct drive turntable from Japan with a Koetsu Rosewood Signature MC cartridge and also a Consonance Reference 7 valve based digital streamer @ $2.5K using up to 24/192 hirez downloads.

Cheers,

Steve.

Edited May 26, 2013 by Steve M

[Grimmie]

What a fabulous afternoon Tasso, many thanks for the effort you and your good lady put into it and the invite to share the experience of listening to some of the finest and highest end gear in town.

 

The differences in sound presentation came down so much to preference which we all suspected it might but nevertheless all the equipment shone out in it's own way. Great way to spend a birthday.

 

Ged

[THOMO]

Thanks Lianne and Tasso for hosting a great GTG.Some countries would go to war over the baklava!

A shame I arrived late and missed out on the first half.

 

I am glad some more people got to hear the little Nakamichi amps on song.For me they are one of the few SS amps I have heard that let all the advantages of using a good valve preamp through.They do not mask harmonic structure like most SS amps so the music is imbued with life and vibrancy.And I reckon that is how the real thing sounds .Swapping from the the ME75 to the Nakamichis I thought gave us a pretty stark example of this difference .I have used various Nelson Pass designed amps over the years and people claim they do it but they don' really.I have also heard a lot of valve amps that don't do it either.I am sure that there are many other SS amps that allow this too but I am yet to hear one. A shame I did not get to hear the Ayre amps.

It seems that they sounded great with the Cary preamp.

 

Tasso's big speakers proved more than worthy of all these comparisons and showed up all the differences beautifully.

[wolster]

If it weren't for the booze, the third photo could be a a prayer meeting!

 

It was only natural to show a bit of reverence to such gear, Bronal   

[Steve M]

What a fabulous afternoon ....Great way to spend a birthday

Didn't know it was your birthday Grimmie, we would have sung you a Happy Birthday and given you a door prize!

Anyway, a belated Happy Birthday from me ...

Cheers,

Steve.

[a.dent]

Hi Tasso

 

Thanks so much for hosting such an entertaining afternoon/evening.

 

It was good to hear such wide range of technologies. They all had different attributes but there was no doubting the quality of all the components we compared.

 

Thanks to Liane for the baklava and the other wonderful food.

[TP1]

I guess I also sat on the fence a bit in my first post  about the SS vs Valve differences. I think I described the SS amps accurately though but  the big Mingda monoblocks to my mind were able to take the music to new levels in terms of weight, soundstage, tonality and timbre.   They  can render amazing detail and spatiality with such graceful authority that only the better valve amps  seem able to do to that degree. They can also pack a wallop and  produce dynamic transients together with deep and well controlled bass.

 

But as good as a valve amp can be, a  really decent SS amp like the Ayres will show the way in terms of ultimate bass response and  speaker control. And given that they  sound better than most other SS amps ( ie more valve like), I can see why someone might not want to come over to  the 'enlightened' side particularly if these strengths are paramount to them.   Similarly, those who value the strengths of valve amps  over  anything else  will  only be satisfied on the path to enlightenment.

 

Edit: I should also add that as good as Andrew's Cary preamp sounded ( it was my favourite valve preamp  for its beautiful sound) , we did not hear it at its best.  It only had  one set of L&R RCA outputs and since we hadn't found the RCA splitters at that stage we used single monoblocks for each amp instead of bi-amping. The main differences that bi-amping brings to the table on my setup are better controlled bass , greater dynamics and greater mid range detail.  In terms of overall difference its about 20% 

Edited May 27, 2013 by Tasso

[TP1]

Thanks Lianne and Tasso for hosting a great GTG.Some countries would go to war over the baklava!

A shame I arrived late and missed out on the first half.

 

I am glad some more people got to hear the little Nakamichi amps on song.For me they are one of the few SS amps I have heard that let all the advantages of using a good valve preamp through.They do not mask harmonic structure like most SS amps so the music is imbued with life and vibrancy.And I reckon that is how the real thing sounds .Swapping from the the ME75 to the Nakamichis I thought gave us a pretty stark example of this difference .I have used various Nelson Pass designed amps over the years and people claim they do it but they don' really.I have also heard a lot of valve amps that don't do it either.I am sure that there are many other SS amps that allow this too but I am yet to hear one. A shame I did not get to hear the Ayre amps.

It seems that they sounded great with the Cary preamp.

 

Tasso's big speakers proved more than worthy of all these comparisons and showed up all the differences beautifully.

 

I  have recently realised that I have not heard the best from my speakers as each tiny adjustment I make is  clearly audible. The thing that  amazed me was what the Soulution preamp did- it was as if the whole character of the speakers changed.  Jonesy was also surprised and he is used to the Soulution - I think he paid his highest compliment to date when he said "with the Soulution they don't sound like ribbons......"

 

BTW have you managed to to biamp your Soniques  with the Nakamichi's like we did at my place?

Edited May 27, 2013 by Tasso

[Jones99]

I  have recently realised that I have not heard the best from my speakers as each tiny adjustment I make is  clearly audible. The thing that  amazed me was what the Soulution preamp did- it was as if the whole character of the speakers changed.  Jonesy was also surprised and he is used to the Soulution - I think he paid his highest compliment to date when he said "with the Soulution they don't sound like ribbons......"

 

BTW have you managed to to biamp your Soniques  with the Nakamichi's like we did at my place?

Yes the 721 changed the sound immensely which was very surprising . The sound softened  and had a real sense of rightness about it.Forgetting the SS amp debate I think it surprised and may have changed perceptions of how a SS  preamp can sound for a few of the valve guys. For a preamp renowned for its neutral character it was described as valve like .....yet it is so far from a valve design.  Maybe I should have bought the matching 710 power amp ...it may have persuaded them to dip their toes in the SS water......next time.....

Edited May 27, 2013 by Jones99

[tuyen]

Few photos from my phone:

 

 

 

 

 

 

[tuyen]

Thanks again Tasso and to your lovely wife for hosting the gtg.   Was great to catchup with all and thoroughly enjoyed the day.  All the gear sounded tops to me.   Particularly liked the valve preamps paired with the Nakamichi and ME poweramps.      The new Accuphase spinner/DAC is very special too!

[TP1]

Hi Tasso, I might just try similar with my P3 and see what changes.  As you know, the inbuilt suspension is superb, however like yourself, I have a massive stand holding 3 heavy turntables plus all my other front end stuff.  This may be more to provide a little relief from the massive stand.

 

 

I have Stillpoint Ultras which In can borrow from one of my phono stages.   I can use a shelf from my no longer had solid steel rack with the Stillpoint Ultras underneath.

  Nothing to lose except time.   Now, how am I going to move the bloody heavy P3 :-) 

 

Thanks

 

Please let us know what differences ,if any, you observe.

[TP1]

.

The Accuphase is a beautiful and sweet sounding player .I would really like to hear it in my system to compare to the Dac2x and TSDX one day ....if you dont mind Tasso?

 

 

No worries at all Grant - just tell us when...

[TP1]

Valves   light up a room with more than just music....

 

 

[THOMO]

That was a crazy way of biamping with the Nakamichis too.

Having a stereo amp driving the woofers with one channel and the tweeters and mid with the other on each speaker must surely upset the amp a bit.The channel connected to the  woofers [and especially two of them wired in parallel] must present a very lop sided load.In theory it might be a good concept because one amp is not driving all the woofers Out of curiosity I tried  biamping that way on my speakers when I got home and then the usual way and I think the normal way sounds a lot better.

 

Getting back to the valve versus SS thing we probably need to consider that Tasso's speakers are probably far from valve amp friendly things.Now if we had have had Andrew's Tannoys and a good SET on hand  the impressions would have been very different because they are speakers that suit  low negative feedback SETS and tend to sound pretty ordinary with SS amps.

One for another time perhaps.In absolute terms I still suspect that a a good SET sets a benchmark for outright clarity...............did somebody say Ongaku?