progladyte Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 Here's an interested article I stumbled across today......... YMMV.... ********** ******************* ******************** The 4th Turning - Millennials Will Replace the Baby Boomers Politics / US Politics May 23, 2013 - 12:21 PM GMT By: James_Quinn A confluence of events last week has me reminiscing about the days gone by and apprehensive about the future. I’ve spent a substantial portion of my adulthood rushing to baseball fields, hockey rinks, gymnasiums, and school auditoriums after a long day at work. I’d be lying if I said I enjoyed every moment. Watching eight year olds trying to throw a strike for two hours can become excruciatingly mind-numbing. But, the years of baseball, hockey, basketball, and band taught my boys life lessons about teamwork, sportsmanship, winning, losing, hard work, and having fun. There were championship teams, awful teams and of course trophies for finishing in 7th place. As my boys have gotten older and no longer participate in organized sports, the time commitment has dropped considerably. Last week was one of those few occasions where I had to rush home from work, wolf down a slice of pizza and head out to a school function. It was the annual 8th grade Spring concert. My youngest son was one of a hundred kids in the 8th grade choir. I think it was mandatory, since none of my kids like to sing. As my wife and I found a seat in the back of the auditorium where we could make a quick escape at the conclusion of the show, neither of us were enthused with the prospect of spending the next ninety minutes listening to off-key music and lame songs. I’ve been jaded by sitting through these ordeals since pre-school. But a funny thing happened during my 30th band concert. I began to feel sentimental about the past and sorrowful about the future for these Millennials. The Millennial generation was born between 1982 and 2004. Therefore, they range in age from 9 years old to 31 years old. There are approximately 87 million of them, or 27.5% of the U.S. population. In comparison, the much ballyhooed Boomer generation only has 65 million cohorts remaining on this earth. The Millennials will have a much greater influence on the direction of this country over the next fifteen years than the currently in control Boomers. There has been abundant scorn heaped upon this young generation by their elders. In a fit of irrationality befit the arrogant, hubristic, delusional elder generations, they somehow blame a cohort in which 54 million of them are still younger than 21 years old for many of the ills afflicting our society. This disgusting display of hubris is par for the course among these delusional elders. Are Millennials addicted to their iGadgets, cell phones and Facebook pages? Probably. Do they spend too much time on the internet and playing PS3 & Xbox? Certainly. Have they been indoctrinated in social engineering gibberish like diversity and planet worship by government run public school bureaucrats? Absolutely. Are they young, foolish, immature, irrational and not respectful towards their elders? You betcha. Teenagers have acted like this forever. You acted like that. The ongoing crisis in this country and our unsustainable economic system are in no way the result of anything perpetrated by the Millennial generation. Can the Millennial generation be blamed for the $17 trillion national debt, $222 trillion of unfunded un-payable social obligations promised by corrupt politicians, $1 trillion of annual deficits, undeclared wars being waged across the globe on behalf of the military industrial complex arms dealer mega-corporations, economic policies that have resulted in 48 million people dependent on food stamps, tax policies that enrich those who write the code, trade policies that benefit corporations who gutted the industrial base and shipped jobs overseas to slave labor factories, or monetary policies that have destroyed 96% of the dollar’s purchasing power? They had no say in the creation of our untenable welfare/warfare state. There are no Millennials among the 535 corrupt bought off politicians slithering down the halls of Congress. There are no Millennials running the Too Big To Control Wall Street banks. There are no Millennials in charge of the mega-corporations that buy and sell our politicians. There are no Millennials at the upper echelon of the Military Industrial Complex or in the upper ranks of the U.S. Military. But, and this is a big but, they have done most of the dying in the Middle East over the last ten years in our multiple undeclared preemptive wars of aggression. They have died under the false pretenses of a War on Terror, when they are truly dying on behalf of the crony capitalists who profit from never ending war. They have been fighting and dying to protect “our oil†that happens to be under “their sandâ€. If the energy independence storyline was true, why is our military perpetually at war in the Middle East? The Millennials will also be required to do the heavy lifting over the next fifteen years of this Fourth Turning Crisis. The Silent Generation is dying off rapidly. The Boomer generation has done some hard living and some hefty eating and with the oldest of their cohort hitting 70 years old, their supremacy will begin to diminish over the coming fifteen years. At 87 million strong, and millions yet to reach voting age, the Millennials will become more influential by the day regarding the future course of this nation. The question is what will be left of this country by the time they assume control. They are saddled with $1 trillion of student loan debt, peddled to them by the government and Wall Street with the false promise of good paying jobs and the opportunity for a better life than their parents lived. They have obediently followed the path laid out by their elders, but they have been badly misled. This American dream has been shattered upon an iceberg of debt, delusion, deception and denial. The unsinkable American empire’s hubris and arrogance are leading to its demise. The Millennials are coming of age during a Crisis that will reach momentous magnitudes over the next fifteen years, and they had nothing to do with creating the circumstances which will propel the chaos and anarchy that ensues. But, they will bear the brunt of the dreadful consequences. Generational Bridge “The Boomers’ old age will loom, exposing the thinness in private savings and the unsustainability of public promises. The 13ers will reach their make or break peak earning years, realizing at last that they can’t all be lucky exceptions to their stagnating average income. Millennials will come of age facing debts, tax burdens, and two tier wage structures that older generations will now declare intolerable.†– Strauss & Howe - The Fourth Turning The kids on the stage at the 8th grade Spring concert were all around 14 years old. They are unaware they are in the midst of a twenty year period of Crisis. The boys are at that gawky looking stage with pimply faces and gawky limbs. The girls mature quicker than the boys at that age. These youngsters have barely begun their lives. I was amazed at their proficiency with a wide variety of musical instruments. They displayed poise and talent. The soloists exhibited composure well beyond their years. The performers were all musically endowed and proved that hard work and practice pays off. They were clearly enjoying themselves. They were all dressed in their Sunday best. I found myself enjoying the show despite my jaded attitude upon entering the auditorium. Even my son, wearing one of my ties, actually appeared to be singing during the choir performance. What I saw were hundreds of bright eyed Millennials with their hopes and dreams for a bright future intact. They have no idea what trials and tribulations await them. I reached a milestone on the age chart last week that had me ruminating about yesteryear and contemplating the future. I reached the half century mark. Birthdays generally do not faze me, but the intersection of the 8th grade concert and my landmark birthday had me pondering my purpose for inhabiting this world. I’ve likely realized two-thirds of my life. The final third of my life will be spent trying to maneuver through the minefields of this Fourth Turning. I’m a father to three Millennial boys. I consider it my duty to defend and support them during this Crisis. Strauss & Howe wrote their book in 1997 and predicted a Great Devaluation in the financial markets around the time Millennials were entering their twenties. This Crisis began in September 2008 with the worldwide financial collapse created by Wall Street “Greed is Good†Boomers, as the oldest Millennials entered their twenties. It continues to worsen as more Millennials approach their twenties. We’ve reached a point in history when the elder generations need to sacrifice in order to insure younger generations have a chance at some form of the American dream. I believe each generation has an obligation to future generations. We are bridge between preceding generations and future generations. We have a civic obligation to manage the resources of the country in a prudent manner. It’s our duty to leave the country in a financially viable condition so younger generations have an opportunity to live a better life than their parents. Every generation that preceded the Millennials has achieved the goal of having a better standard of living than their parents. I don’t believe my boys will enjoy a better life than I’ve lived. We’ve lived well beyond our means for decades. Government, Wall Street banks, corporations and individuals have run up a $56 trillion tab and are sticking the Millennials with the bill. The $17 trillion national debt accumulated by elder generations to benefit themselves and $222 trillion of unfunded entitlements promised to themselves is nothing but generational theft. It’s immoral and possibly the most selfish act in human history. I’m ashamed that my generation and older generations have committed this criminal act of theft. Deficit spending today with no intention of repaying that debt is a tax on future generations. This egotistical abuse of power by the current and past regimes must be reversed voluntarily or it will be done by force. I’m 50 years old and will dedicating my remaining time on this earth fighting to create a sustainable future for my kids and their kids. The lucky among us get eighty years on this planet to make a difference. When did the definition of success become dying with the most toys and spending your life screwing your fellow man by accumulating obscene levels of wealth at their expense? If Boomers and Generation X have any sense of guilt about what they have done, they would be willingly offering to sacrifice their ill-gotten entitlements. Not only are those currently in power not proposing to scale back their spending, debt accumulation, or entitlement transfers, but they have accelerated the pace of each in the last five years. An already unsustainable corrupted economic structure is being driven towards collapse by psychopathic central bankers and cowardly captured politicians. These are acts of treason against the youth of this country and larceny on a grand scale. It will lead to generational warfare and these crooks will pay for their transgressions. Strauss & Howe suspected in 1997 the elders might cling to their illicit profits acquired at the expense of the Millennials: “When young adults encounter leaders who cling to the old regime (and who keep propping up senior benefit programs that will by then be busting the budget), they will not tune out, 13er – style. Instead, they will get busy working to defeat or overcome their adversaries. Their success will lead some older critics to perceive real danger in a rising generation perceived as capable but naïve.†– Strauss & Howe - The Fourth Turning The elders who represent the status quo do perceive real danger in the rising Millennial generation. The initial skirmishes occurred in the midst of the Occupy protests. The young protestors initially focused on the true culprits in the crashing of the financial system and vaporizing of the net worth of millions – Wall Street bankers and their sugar daddy at the Federal Reserve. In a display of status quo bipartisanship you had liberal Democrat mayors in cities across the country call out their armed thugs to beat the millennial protestors into submission while being cheered on by Fox News and the neo-cons. The existing status quo regime provides the illusion of choice, but both political parties are interchangeable in their desire to control our lives, flex our military might around the globe, indebt future generations and write laws to favor their corporate and banking masters. The establishment is showing contempt for the futures of our youth. Their solutions to the criminally created financial crisis have been to reward reckless debtors and bankers at the expense of future generations. Their doling out of hundreds of billions in student loan debt and artificial propping up of home prices has effectively made it impossible for millions of young people to get their lives started. Boomers have done such a poor job saving for their retirements they are unable to leave the workforce. Since January 2009, despite adding $400 billion of student loan debt, Millennials have a net loss in jobs, while the Boomers have taken 4 million jobs. Strauss & Howe anticipated that older people would be anguished to see good kids suffer for the mistakes they had made. They thought the elders couldn’t possibly be shallow enough, selfish enough, or immoral enough to deny the Millennial generation a chance at the American Dream. They were wrong. The old regime has no plans to step aside or sacrifice on behalf of younger generations. The implications of this resistance will be dire. “The youthful hunger for social discipline and centralized authority could lead Millennial youth brigades to lend mass to dangerous demagogues. The risk of class warfare will be especially grave if the 20% of Millennials who were poor as children (50% in inner cities) come of age seeing their peer-bonded paths to generational progress blocked by elder inertia.†– Strauss & Howe - The Fourth Turning The social mood in this country continues to deteriorate as the sociopathic financial elite accelerate their pillaging of the working middle class, steal money from senior citizens through zero interest rate inflationary policies, and enslave our youth in the chains of crushing debt and promise of dead end jobs. When the next leg down in this ongoing depression strikes like an F5 tornado, the simmering anger in this country will explode in a chaotic frenzy of violence and retribution. The chances of class and generational warfare have increased exponentially due to the actions of the elderly regime over the last five years. Generational Sacrifice “You got your whole life ahead of you, but for me, I finish things.†– Walt Kowalski – Gran Torino A couple days after the Spring concert I was flipping through the 650 channels on my TV with nothing worth watching when I stumbled across the 2008 Clint Eastwood movie Gran Torino. This was the third episode within the week that had me thinking about the future of my kids. It was his highest grossing film in history. Eastwood played a bigoted tough guy Korean War veteran whose Detroit suburban neighborhood had deteriorated into a dangerous gang infested Asian war zone. The movie did not follow the standard Eastwood plot where he kills dozens of bad guys. He grudgingly befriends two young Millennial teenage Laos refugees who live next door. He had lost his wife of 50 years. He was in his 70s and dying from some undiagnosed illness. I viewed the movie as an allegory for the generational sacrifice that should be taking place now. Eastwood’s character, Walt Kowlaski, decided to finish things his way. He realized the two Millennials would never find peace or have a chance at a better life until the criminal gang running the show in the neighborhood were confronted and defeated. He knew he was too old to kill six gang members singlehandedly, so he made a choice to sacrifice himself and be gunned down in cold blood in front of multiple witnesses so the perpetrators would go to jail and allow his Millennial companions to have a chance at a better life. He sacrificed his life for the good of young people who weren’t even related to him. This message has not connected with the elder generations who control the purse strings and political system in this country. The media propaganda machine supporting the existing regime continues to peddle a storyline that debt doesn’t matter, consumption is good, saving is for suckers, and passing the bill for unfunded entitlements to future generations is not immoral and cowardly. Walt Kowalski displayed courage, bravery, and valor that is sorely lacking in the elderly generations today. At the age of 50 I have a choice with my remaining 20 or 30 years. I can choose to keep accumulating material goods with debt, voting for politicians who promise never to cut my entitlements, believing deficits growing to infinity are beneficial to the economic health of the nation, supporting the military industrial complex as they wage undeclared wars across the world, applauding the Orwellian fascist surveillance measures instituted to give the illusion of safety while sacrificing freedoms and liberties and selfishly looking out for my best interests. Or I can stand up to the corporate fascist old boy regime and lure them into a violent response that will ultimately lead to their downfall. I’m willing to sacrifice what is supposedly “owed†to me on behalf of my kids and all Millennials. They don’t deserve to start life in a $200 trillion hole created by their parents and grandparents. It is disconcerting to me that more Boomer and Generation X parents are unprepared, unwilling or too willfully ignorant to forfeit entitlements awarded them under false pretenses in order to preserve a decent standard of living for their children and grandchildren. The Bernaysian propaganda programmed into their brains over decades by the sociopathic central planning status quo has created this inertia. The inertia will be replaced by frenzied activity when this unsustainable system ultimately fails. Time seems to be standing still. People have been lulled into a false sense of security even though history is about to fling us into a chaotic transformational period in history. How do I know this is going to happen? Because it happens every eighty years like clockwork. The best laid plans of the men running the show will be swept away in a whirl of pandemonium, violence, war and reckoning for sins committed against humanity. There will be no escape. “Don’t think you can escape the Fourth Turning the way you might today distance yourself from news, national politics, or even taxes you don’t feel like paying. History warns that a Crisis will reshape the basic social and economic environment that you now take for granted. The Fourth Turning necessitates the death and rebirth of the social order. It is the ultimate rite of passage for an entire people, requiring a luminal state of sheer chaos whose nature and duration no one can predict in advance. The risk of catastrophe will be very high. The nation could erupt into insurrection or civil violence, crack up geographically, or succumb to authoritarian rule. If there is a war, it is likely to be one of maximum risk and effort – in other words, a total war. Every Fourth Turning has registered an upward ratchet in the technology of destruction, and in mankind’s willingness to use it.†– Strauss & Howe - The Fourth Turning Our country has entered a period of Crisis. We may or may not successfully navigate our way through the visible icebergs and more dangerous icebergs just below the surface. The similarities between the course of our country and the maiden voyage of the Titanic are eerily allegorical. The owners of the ship (Wall Street, Washington politicians, crony capitalists) are arrogant and reckless. They declare the ship unsinkable, while only providing half the lifeboats needed to save all the passengers in case of disaster in order to maximize their profits. The captain (Ben Bernanke) has been tendered the greatest cruise liner (United States) in history. The initial voyage across the Atlantic Ocean has drawn the financial elite ruling class (financers & bankers) onboard, occupying the luxurious state rooms on the upper decks. But, the lower decks are filled with young poor peasants (Millennials) who are sneered at and ridiculed by those in the upper decks. A maiden voyage should always be approached cautiously. A prudent captain would not take undue risks. Our captain (Ben Bernanke) wants to make his mark on history. He considers himself an expert in navigating dangerous waters (Great Depression) because he studied dangerous waters at his Ivy League school. It doesn’t matter that he never actually captained a ship in the real world. He declares full steam ahead (reducing interest rates to 0% and throwing vast amounts of fiat currency into the engine room boilers). Midway through the voyage, the captain is handed a telegram warning of icebergs (potential financial catastrophe) ahead. If he slows down the vessel, he will not set the speed record and receive the accolades of an adoring public. He ignores the warning and steams on to his rendezvous (eternal disgrace) with destiny. In the middle of the night, the lookouts (Ron Paul, John Hussman, Zero Hedge) cry iceberg!! But, it is too late. The great ship (United States) has struck an enormous iceberg (debt & currency crisis). At first, it seems like everything will be OK. The captain and crew assure the passengers that everything is under control and their evasive action has saved the ship. But below the waterline, the great ship (United States) is taking on water (toxic levels of debt, un-payable entitlement promises, trillion dollar deficits, political & financial corruption). The engine room (Federal Reserve) works frantically to alleviate the damage (QE to infinity). The captain is sure the compartmentalization of the ship will save it. One of the designers of the ship (David Stockman) sadly declares that the ship will surely sink. The captain orders the band (CNBC, Fox, MSNBC, CNN) on deck to distract the passengers from their impending fate with soothing music. The owners of the ship (Wall Street, Washington politicians, crony capitalists) aren’t worried. They collected their fees upfront and over-insured the vessel. They anticipate a windfall when the ship sinks. It worked last time. To avoid mass panic, the crew (government apparatchiks) has locked the youthful poor peasants (Millennials) below deck. The captain and his crew are content to let them go down with the ship. They’ve decided the women, children, and senior citizens (Middle Class) can also be sacrificed. The financial elite ruling class (financers and bankers) are piling into the boats with the ship’s jewels, escaping the fate of the peasants. The captain (Ben Bernanke) has no intention of going down with the ship. In a cowardly act, he leaps onto the 1st lifeboat to be launched. We are on a voyage of the damned. The great cruise liner (United States) has a fatal wound and is headed for a watery grave. Are we going to let the owners, captain and crew dictate who will be saved in the few lifeboats or will we rise up and throw these guilty parties overboard? It comes down to the abuse of power by a few evil men and their henchmen as they have centralized their control over our financial, political, economic and social institutions. The existing social order is an ancient, rotting, fetid swamp of parasites that will be drained during this Fourth Turning. The Millennials are rising and will be the spearhead of the coming revolution. As each day passes they will become a more powerful force and the power of the existing regime will wane. Meanwhile, the band will play on as the ship of state descends into the abyss. Join me at www.TheBurningPlatform.com to discuss truth and the future of our country. By James Quinn quinnadvisors@comcast.net James Quinn is a senior director of strategic planning for a major university. James has held financial positions with a retailer, homebuilder and university in his 22-year career. Those positions included treasurer, controller, and head of strategic planning. He is married with three boys and is writing these articles because he cares about their future. He earned a BS in accounting from Drexel University and an MBA from Villanova University. He is a certified public accountant and a certified cash manager. These articles reflect the personal views of James Quinn. They do not necessarily represent the views of his employer, and are not sponsored or endorsed by his employer. © 2013 Copyright James Quinn - All Rights Reserved Disclaimer: The above is a matter of opinion provided for general information purposes only and is not intended as investment advice. Information and analysis above are derived from sources and utilising methods believed to be reliable, but we cannot accept responsibility for any losses you may incur as a result of this analysis. Individuals should consult with their personal financial advisors. 1
Super Mustud Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 I made a comment about the immorality of Labor in Australia creating a debt each year that will have to be paid off by future generations. My point being that a debt incurred for capital investment or for a very short term period is fine, however not a systemic debt incurred to fund the sense of entitlement of the current generation. We do not have the problem in Aussie that they do in the U.S., however current Labor would get us there if given sufficient time. I agree with the above argument. It is not a matter of whether future generation can pay off the debt for the current generation's sense of entitlement. It is a matter of whether it is moral to expect them to do so. I think that this is where the Lattes have lost the plot. 1
captainclive Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 Past generations funded the schools, universities, hospitals, Snowy Mountain Scheme, Sydney Harbour Bridge and the list goes. These could never be built today. A majority of the infrastructure enjoyed by the youth of today was funded by past tax payers. Is a small pension, funded by today's tax payer too much to expect. I have worked from the age of 15, served 12 years in the armed forces, including an overseas conflict. Worked and paid for my university degree and still working beyond retirement age in a job few want to do. The chances are I won't qualify for a pension but may get a Veteran Affairs Gold Card. Yes I'm a baby boomer just don't blame me for the current woes or tell the struggling old age pensioners that it's their *** up. 1
Super Mustud Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 Past generations funded the schools, universities, hospitals, Snowy Mountain Scheme, Sydney Harbour Bridge and the list goes. These could never be built today. A majority of the infrastructure enjoyed by the youth of today was funded by past tax payers. Is a small pension, funded by today's tax payer too much to expect. I have worked from the age of 15, served 12 years in the armed forces, including an overseas conflict. Worked and paid for my university degree and still working beyond retirement age in a job few want to do. The chances are I won't qualify for a pension but may get a Veteran Affairs Gold Card. Yes I'm a baby boomer just don't blame me for the current woes or tell the struggling old age pensioners that it's their *** up. Captain, the issue of debt left for next generations, as with Snowy, is whether it is for the building of infrastructure that future generations will get a benefit stream from, or whether it is for the living expenses for the current one. One type of debt is moral. I contend that the other type is not. It is up to the current generation to fund its own living expenses. That should be done through a sensible society consensus on what it is prepared to fund and then to raise those funds appropriately. That is the extent and also limitation of my argument on this point.
LogicprObe Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 They are too busy funding do-gooder feel good stuff so there's nothing left for infrastructure.
progladyte Posted May 25, 2013 Author Posted May 25, 2013 Past generations funded the schools, universities, hospitals, Snowy Mountain Scheme, Sydney Harbour Bridge and the list goes. These could never be built today. A majority of the infrastructure enjoyed by the youth of today was funded by past tax payers. Is a small pension, funded by today's tax payer too much to expect. I have worked from the age of 15, served 12 years in the armed forces, including an overseas conflict. Worked and paid for my university degree and still working beyond retirement age in a job few want to do. The chances are I won't qualify for a pension but may get a Veteran Affairs Gold Card. Yes I'm a baby boomer just don't blame me for the current woes or tell the struggling old age pensioners that it's their *** up. Hey Clive, I think we all hear you loud and clear. Let's not forget a lot of us are in the same situation, myself included. Having worked hard all my life and nearing retirement, I now find that the heavily reduced hours offered along with ridiculously low rates of pay means that most jobs these days will not enable too many of us to be self funded in retirement. What worries me more than anything however, moving closer to our retirement years is the fact that a lot of the dodgy investments peddled by Wall Street contain a lot of trash that is underpinned by a gamut of credit default swaps that took out Lehman Bros, choked AIG, Merryl Lynch and others only a few years back. These "Triple A" rated piles of trash were snapped up by investment funds , super funds , benevolent funds, and all manner of investment houses all over the world. My own super fund even mentions their exposure to credit derivatives in their annual reports and PDS, as if that will appease my concerns. So we would only need to see a collapse of some sovereign fund from O/S, (Cyprus / Greece / Spain / Italy / Portugal / Ireland / and all our local funds will be toast. The inter-connectivity of all of these financial instruments and so called investments are hanging by a thread so it will be a double whammy if our local Government can't fund our pensions and our super funds hit the skids at the same time. You want to feel sorry for the Americans whose $120T in unfunded and unpayable welfare liabilities and public servants pensions is an amount of money I find impossible to imagine.
Super Mustud Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 They are too busy funding do-gooder feel good stuff so there's nothing left for infrastructure. The selection of do-gooder stuff is actually a separate discussion. Step 1 is to fund our living expenses ourselves. We can then have a spat within our generation on how we spend those funds. That is Step 2, however we are least then not giving the bill to the next generations.
captainclive Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 I could never figure out why the US government bailed out the banks. Too big to fail was bandied around. A fairer solution would have been to give the money to the home buyers, who in turn could give that same money to the bank and kept their home. Its a similar situation here with the car companies, why give the manufacturers a hand out. Give the money to the car buyers to buy the cars and keep jobs. But no give it to the companies, thank you very much, goodbye anyway we will take the cash back with us. I know too simplistic and one too many glasses of red. On call for the weekend hope that phone doesn't ring. 2
captainclive Posted May 25, 2013 Posted May 25, 2013 The selection of do-gooder stuff is actually a separate discussion. Step 1 is to fund our living expenses ourselves. We can then have a spat within our generation on how we spend those funds. That is Step 2, however we are least then not giving the bill to the next generations. Hang on a minute. I pay for my own living expenses, plus give a large amount to fund others (tax). The next generation (children& grandchildren) will receive what I leave behind. I certainly won't be leaving them a debt, even my funeral is paid for. All I expect in retirement is the right to live quietly and peacefully, read my books, listen to and play my music. OK maybe not that quietly. 1
emesbee Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Millenials? Haven't heard of that one! I think this invention of labels to stick on each generation is starting to get a bit silly. 1
Super Mustud Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Hang on a minute. I pay for my own living expenses, plus give a large amount to fund others (tax). The next generation (children& grandchildren) will receive what I leave behind. I certainly won't be leaving them a debt, even my funeral is paid for. All I expect in retirement is the right to live quietly and peacefully, read my books, listen to and play my music. OK maybe not that quietly. Not everyone is as responsible as are you, Capt'n. If I may, I will construct four, rather simplistic, categories. Extremely simplistic, however here we go. Firstly we have those who not only pay for themselves but also pay for others. The second category consists of those who pretty much fund themselves but do not do more than that. Then we have those who do not pay for themselves and are so handicapped that they could never (entirely) pay for themselves. They will need the first category to help them out or they will not last for long. The fourth category I construct in this very simple model consists of those who are capable of funding their lifestyle however become dependent on others to do this for them, or to top it up. All those categories exist. There is no doubt about that. The debate in all societies always revolves around discussing the size of each category and the extent to which it is reasonable for each category to provide funds. Nothing terribly complicated about the concept. The problems always arise in balancing the moral, emotional and economic elements. I believe that an unhealthy trend in society arises when a politically correct mantra overwhelms any discussion on this. It got to that stage in Thatcher's Britain at one end of the spectrum and I believe it has happened with the left Lattes at the other end of the spectrum in Australia more recently. It is hard to balance the logic and emotion in this discussion. It is even harder to develop a consistent consensus within any society on such a balance. The discussion becomes more exciting when what was accepted as the financial equilibrium shifts. That is happening in Australia right now.
brumby Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Can the Millennial generation be blamed for the $17 trillion national debt, $222 trillion of unfunded un-payable social obligations promised by corrupt politicians, $1 trillion of annual deficits, undeclared wars being waged across the globe on behalf of the military industrial complex arms dealer mega-corporations, economic policies that have resulted in 48 million people dependent on food stamps, tax policies that enrich those who write the code, trade policies that benefit corporations who gutted the industrial base and shipped jobs overseas to slave labor factories, or monetary policies that have destroyed 96% of the dollar’s purchasing power? They had no say in the creation of our untenable welfare/warfare state? Obviously not. Sure that's a US centric litany of woe, but it has global echoes. I'm a baby boomer. I've got no debts whatsoever - except for what's on our credit card and that is just a short-term interest free loan since we pay the balance off religiously. I could say that I didn't contribute to the mess and that would be true. At the same time, I have spent almost half a century paying taxes in three different countries. So I'm "entitled" to whatever I can get out of the government at this point? That's a convenient argument that resonates with almost everyone in my age bracket - early/mid 60s and older. There's only one problem. All the money we paid to the government has ALREADY been spent. The money we get or may get in the form of OAP's and various subsidies for the oldies comes straight out of the pockets of our children and grandchildren. Anyone on a government funded OAP of any nature is not getting back what they put into it. They are getting back what their descendents are currently putting into it. There's not enough to go round any more, that's so obvious that nobody wants to look at it.
Grimmie Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 I don't know what this di-ckhead author thinks ordinary people such as myself have done to rob the entire Millenium generation of their birthright. Except that is to work bloody hard since the age of fifteen years and three months and save my money to pay for EVERYTHING I need before I get it. To never borrow money (except mortgage) or gamble it away. The aggression shown in that article should be directed at the obscene levels of wealth being accumulated by those in positions of power of WHATEVER generation. You can bet that no matter their age or stupid 'title' tagged on their butt, they will still believe in the "greed is good" mantra if it to their personal advantage. To think that such sins are limited to the 'Boomers' is laughable except for the hate and resentment these views whip up. My three kids all work hard for their living too, but have only just started to think of other things to do with their money besides travel the world and spend what they get as they get it at thirty-ish. Absolutely no complaints from me as to what they do, it is 'their life' as they have been telling me for years, but to complain that they can't afford a house now and it's my generations fault, (they don't say that, despite the authors propaganda) would be ridiculous. There's absolutely no doubt that the hoi-polloi of this world is being ripped-off, but the direction of the resentment shown in the article is entirely miss-directed. 1
davidsss Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Was it the left or the right who championed deregulating the finance sector and got us into this mess? DS
captainclive Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 There's only one problem. All the money we paid to the government has ALREADY been spent. The money we get or may get in the form of OAP's and various subsidies for the oldies comes straight out of the pockets of our children and grandchildren. Anyone on a government funded OAP of any nature is not getting back what they put into it. They are getting back what their descendents are currently putting into it. There's not enough to go round any more, that's so obvious that nobody wants to look at it. Why is it considered wrong to ask the current working generation to pay for the aged pensioners? When working they paid for the for those not able to pay for themselves including the aged pensioners of the day. Child care rebates, family tax benefits, schools, single parents, students, etc. It's called a social contract - we support you and in return you support us. It's the way fair egalitarian societies work. My parents cared for me when I was growing up and I cared for them in return.
captainclive Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Was it the left or the right who championed deregulating the finance sector and got us into this mess? DS It doesn't matter. Deregulation isn't to blame. It's the mindset that you can not only have it all, but you can have it now. You don't need to be a financial wizard to figure out if you spend more than you earn something's got to give.
LogicprObe Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Was it the left or the right who championed deregulating the finance sector and got us into this mess? DS The fact that trading in derivatives (and the like) is still allowed, means that we'll never get out of it. 1
Super Mustud Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 Why is it considered wrong to ask the current working generation to pay for the aged pensioners? When working they paid for the for those not able to pay for themselves including the aged pensioners of the day. Child care rebates, family tax benefits, schools, single parents, students, etc. It's called a social contract - we support you and in return you support us. It's the way fair egalitarian societies work. My parents cared for me when I was growing up and I cared for them in return. If it were that simple then there most probably not be a problem. It is not so much the issue of paying old age pensions as the cost of paying ourselves benefits that we are putting on the slate. The issue is the one you point out in your next post, actually. We want it, we want it now and we want to feel good about it. These are the unearned social benefits that are racking up debt. There is no mathematical problem with paying ourselves social benefits that are being currently paid for. So, for example, if we want there to be old age pensions then they should be paid for, as you say, by the kids of the parents who receive the benefits. It should not be funded by a deficit that goes further down the generation stream. They should be paid for as they are distributed. The country should not have to go into debt to pay old age pensions. If this happens then there is something fundamentally wrong with our economy.
LogicprObe Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 How about the fact that paying all these super 'benefits' costs more than just paying people the pension?
captainclive Posted May 26, 2013 Posted May 26, 2013 How about the fact that paying all these super 'benefits' costs more than just paying people the pension? Employer funded superannuation was originally a trade off for increased wages. Admittedly I only pay 15% tax on that. That money is invested by my fund and hopefully earns some interest that will fund my retirement. If I am prudent I won't need a government hand out and my retirement years won't be a burden on anyone. To date I have worked 5 years past my due retirement (returned serviceman). I have saved the tax payer 5 years of pension payments so far. I'm not ready to retire and I currently work in a job and area that has great difficulty attracting suitable workers I'm not doing a younger person out of a job. I don't smoke, drink to excess, I do exercise and eat a sensible healthy diet. Hopefully I won't be a burden on the health care system. I have private health insurance just in case. My contributions to Medicare plus private health far outway any amount I have been able to claim back or likely to need in the future. In the past 5 years I have contributed over $200,000 in direct PAYE tax not to mention the amount the government has indirectly collected in GST and excise, etc. In short I and many more like me have paid more than our fair share. We don't mind helping those who need it, it's our moral obligation. There are many areas where government spending could be cut and I agree that middle class welfare is one area that needs addressing.
Orpheus Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 I became bored with this jaded, hateful, smug bile after a few paragraphs I'm afraid.
Super Mustud Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 I became bored with this jaded, hateful, smug bile after a few paragraphs I'm afraid. Yes, facing the facts can often do that. Yet this is what our decision makers, and indeed society, must do. Being an ostrich is hardly impressive, and calling people who are struggling to make sense of the situation as you have done suggests that your descriptors might be a mirror.
Orpheus Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Yes, facing the facts can often do that. Yet this is what our decision makers, and indeed society, must do. Being an ostrich is hardly impressive, and calling people who are struggling to make sense of the situation as you have done suggests that your descriptors might be a mirror. Rubbish, S and M. He has a sneering, superior, cynical tone, and the whole article tries to make you complicit in its unkind, cold view of the world. As for your condescension, I could do without it. Perhaps you have noticed I am capable of thinking for myself. Frankly, he has weaved together most of the faux bogey-men of our time, and wrapped it in middle-class ennui and faux familiarity in a tedious and intellectually incoherent fashion. I am not "disturbed" by anything he is saying, just bored with it.
Super Mustud Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Rubbish, S and M. He has a sneering, superior, cynical tone, and the whole article tries to make you complicit in its unkind, cold view of the world. As for your condescension, I could do without it. Perhaps you have noticed I am capable of thinking for myself. Frankly, he has weaved together most of the faux bogey-men of our time, and wrapped it in middle-class ennui and faux familiarity in a tedious and intellectually incoherent fashion. I am not "disturbed" by anything he is saying, just bored with it. Ah, sorry Orp, I misunderstood. I thought that you were referring to the posters on SNA when you made the comment. I reread your post and see where I got the wrong impression. I retract. Mind you, I think you might have joined him in the exercise of hyperbole in your description of the article and the writer. Nonetheless, I am not entirely disagreeing with you, although as I have stated I do agree with the point it makes about debt for current lifestyles being bequeathed to future generations. I regard that as immoral. Current taxpayers should pay for the lifestyles of current generations.
Orpheus Posted May 27, 2013 Posted May 27, 2013 Ah, sorry Orp, I misunderstood. I thought that you were referring to the posters on SNA when you made the comment. I reread your post and see where I got the wrong impression. I retract. Mind you, I think you might have joined him in the exercise of hyperbole in your description of the article and the writer. Nonetheless, I am not entirely disagreeing with you, although as I have stated I do agree with the point it makes about debt for current lifestyles being bequeathed to future generations. I regard that as immoral. Current taxpayers should pay for the lifestyles of current generations. What is important is that the budget is in structural surplus, ie, surplus over the economic cycle. As Gittins argued in the SMH last week, the budget has been slipping into structural deficit over the last 10 years. To address it, taxes need to be raised, and some middle-class welfare has to be reversed. The baby bonus is a good start. The trick is, when fulfilling an obligation to future generations, you have to be careful that those most in need right at this point in time, don't miss out. That is why I will always support, despite their faults, social democratic parties over those further to the right; they tend to target government spending to those in need and services which benefit all, whereas when the Conservatives get in, their idea of financial rectitude tends to be cutting services to all and the poor to the bone. That said, this government has those who are unemployed and now even single parents on payments which are below what I consider liveable. Also worth bearing in mind is the fact that his point about budget deficits has far greater cogency in the US context, where the debt as a percentage of GDP (principally as a result of the George Bush presidency) is staggering.
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