Yamaha Mans' system.

[2Brix]

@Yamaha_manhere's a couple more, if you're in the mood for some downtempo bluesy rock (don't think i posted here before ).  Anyhoo, the Red Book CD of Three Legged Dog (Cruel Sea) in particular, and Satch (self titled), both sound mighty fine so if you can get at least that resolution they should schlap.

 

 

[Yamaha_man]

Big thanks  to @wikeeboy for dropping my Kii three bxt back and measuring my room. Disappointing result but it’s great to know the issue. 
Thanks again for the Christmas gift.  

[Guest]

Show us the measurements?

[wikeeboy]

Good to see you as always mate!

 

The system is definitely sounding the best i've heard it. That Esoteric front end is off the hook and the Karan's do such a good job of delivering gobs of power to the TAD's but sounding sweet while they do it.

 

I think this was one of the tracks we listened to...

 

Birds - Dominique Fils-Aime

https://tidal.com/browse/track/82811590

 

It sounded amazing. The depth of sound and 3D imaging was really impressive. Transparent but no hardness or harshness at all. Really enjoyed that one.

 

@Marc I've attached one of the sweeps we did. It pretty much sums up how i hear things in the room. From 70hz upwards all is pretty good. Tracks like the one listed above sound great. Apart from a few frequencies the range above 70hz more or less falls within +/-5db. The issue is the 30-60hz hole. I played a few tracks i know well with loads of bottom end, it just doesn't come across the way i know it should sound.

 

Nothing a couple of nicely blended and located subs can't sort out!  

 

 

 

[Guest]

This was without his subs engaged? Just at the current listening position?

Any measurements taken from other positions?

[wikeeboy]

We took measurements with the subs engaged but it made a negligible difference. The subs would need to be moved elsewhere to help balance out the hole. Didn't get a chance to play around with the sub controls but doubtful it would make any difference where they're located.

 

We only took measurements from the listening position. We also tried with the door/doors at the rear of the room open/closed which also made bugger all of a difference.

 

I played a couple of bass heavy tracks and we moved around the room to hear the room's bass characteristics. From the listening position moving forward in the room there is very little bass, then as you get up in line with the speakers the bass appears and is really strong (maybe +10db). Walking back from the line of the speakers to the back of the room, the bass completely disappears once you're maybe 50cm away from the speaker line and it's not till you're virtually at the back of the room that you hear the bass appear again. From memory the seating position is 1.6m from the rear wall. We found the best bass response to be standing right up at the back wall in front of the ikea record shelves.

 

Not sure how @Yamaha_man feels about it, but i reckon it needs a full day with the mic setup, and a few extra hands to move those beasty R1's around to optimise their position in the room. If that bass response can be levelled out the SQ will be amazing. If after optimising the position there is still a dip in the bass response, then an appropriately positioned sub(s) could do the trick. If the problem becomes too much bass, then some subtle room EQ could sort it, but as its currently not enough bass i wouldn't recommend Room EQ as it will require way too much boost which in my (basic) experience mucks up the overall SQ. 

 

   

[tubularbells]

This is a story I know all to well. Ive had my Sov's (and sub when I owned one) in literally every conceivable position until i conceded that DSP was the only real solution after dropping many thousands on passive bass traps. So im now running a RME Babyface in the tape loop of the Krell KCT and using there "total mix" software got my room from the green trace to red which was a massive audible improvement

 

[metal beat]

8 minutes ago, tubularbells said:

This is a story I know all to well. Ive had my Sov's (and sub when I owned one) in literally every conceivable position until i conceded that DSP was the only real solution after dropping many thousands on passive bass traps. So im now running a RME Babyface in the tape loop of the Krell KCT and using there "total mix" software got my room from the green trace to red which was a massive audible improvement

 

 

Yea, for really bad rooms, eq is the only answer.

   Deqx hdp4 did an outstanding job in controlling my bass/mud issues when inserted into the tape loop.   Having a tape loop is extremely important as it can be either complete out of the circuit or in the circuit when being used.

 

  Only a change of room negated the need for the Deqx.

[AudioGeek]

I think if your prepared to move the subs around and use dsp you would get an awesome result.

 

Edit: really curious if the kii3bxt would show the same issues

Edited December 4, 2022 by AudioGeek

[wikeeboy]

1 hour ago, tubularbells said:

This is a story I know all to well. Ive had my Sov's (and sub when I owned one) in literally every conceivable position until i conceded that DSP was the only real solution after dropping many thousands on passive bass traps. So im now running a RME Babyface in the tape loop of the Krell KCT and using there "total mix" software got my room from the green trace to red which was a massive audible improvement

 

 

I'd much prefer to have a bass hump like that, than a big notch to fix. I'd be pretty happy with your curve as a starting point. Nice result mate 

 

Thanks to @Yamaha_man's generosity, i had a lengthy in home demo of the Kii+BXT. I spent many hours playing around with a mic and REW and now know my way around the software pretty well. The beauty of the Kii's is they have on board DSP controls so you can select up to 8 PEQ's per side. I let REW recommend the appropriate PEQ's based on a house target curve i uploaded and dialled them in via the Kii control. In the areas where i had too much bass (20-50hz) it was pretty easy to tame this back via the PEQ's whilst keeping the overall SQ coherent. I was also able to knock down a few other peaks higher up the frequency scale without destroying the overall SQ. My trouble area however (50-150hz) has a big dip (like @Yamaha_man). I attempted to use PEQ's to boost this area but found a few issues.

 

- The PEQ's wouldn't allow me to boost by enough db to fill the hole.

- It would require a huge amount of power to implement the boost. 

- Even if i could throw a heap of +db to try and boost the hole, the room mode would still be too great/strong to realistically balance out that dip.

 

I also came to find (as @Snoopy8 pointed out to me early in my learning curve) that room eq should mostly be used to subtly reduce peaks, but ideally not be used to boost as it can be deleterious to the overall SQ. As i played around with PEQ boosts, it definitely destroyed the SQ and sounded artificial. I came up with a curve (via Kii PEQ's) measured through REW that almost perfectly matched my target curve. I was pretty excited, but as soon as i started playing tunes it just sounded awful. Really artificial and not right.

 

 

 

[wikeeboy]

1 hour ago, AudioGeek said:

I think if your prepared to move the subs around and use dsp you would get an awesome result.

 

Edit: really curious if the kii3bxt would show the same issues

 

I'm very keen to measure the Kii's in the same room. Maybe a project for next time, i'm up for it  The Kii's do a great job of working with your room, but they're not perfect. The BXT's didn't fix my bass issue. Most likely the best way for me to sort my issues would be the Kii's on their own (no BXT)with a couple of well placed subs to balance out the bottom end. I'm going down this path first with my current speakers (Buchardt A500SE's).

 

Getting back to @Yamaha_man's room, i reckon the Kii+BXT will measure really well. A measure of the room, and a few subtle PEQ's and i'm sure you'd be getting exactly the target curve you'd like. 

 

I definitely agree with your first statement. I reckon some time spent moving the speakers around to optimise their position, movement of the subs to a more optimal position and some DSP and the result will be awesome.

Edited December 4, 2022 by wikeeboy

[Yamaha_man]

I might have a gtg next year to see if we can dial on those subs to fill the void if anyone is interested. 

[dcathro]

I had a similar (probably worse) bass problem in my room.

 

 

I found using REW room simulator really helpful in finding the correct speaker and listening position to help minimise the problem.

 

 

[wikeeboy]

8 hours ago, dcathro said:

I had a similar (probably worse) bass problem in my room.

 

 

I found using REW room simulator really helpful in finding the correct speaker and listening position to help minimise the problem.

 

 

 

Great suggestion @dcathro. We did exactly that. Entered the room dimensions in to the room sim and played around with different simulated positions. 

 

I think the next step will be running RTA while we physically move the speakers around the room and see what provides the smoothest response.

[PKay]

8 hours ago, dcathro said:

I had a similar (probably worse) bass problem in my room.

 

 

I found using REW room simulator really helpful in finding the correct speaker and listening position to help minimise the problem.

 

 

Is it difficult to learn how to use the software?

[BugPowderDust]

@wikeeboy have you worked out the room modes and distances? You might find this much easier to do with that information in hand.

 

given the sunk value of the gear invested here I’d recommend getting a pro in to work and educate you on the process. 
 

I did similar with Cristian from corsini and recommended him to @El Tel who also had great results. Your brain will explode as you follow his process to optimise in room response.

Edited December 6, 2022 by BugPowderDust

[wikeeboy]

1 hour ago, BugPowderDust said:

@wikeeboy have you worked out the room modes and distances? You might find this much easier to do with that information in hand.

 

given the sunk value of the gear invested here I’d recommend getting a pro in to work and educate you on the process. 
 

I did similar with Cristian from corsini and recommended him to @El Tel who also had great results. Your brain will explode as you follow his process to optimise in room response.

 

Very prudent recommendation mate. I'd love to watch on as an expert runs through the process. Location may be an issue though.. it was a 7 hour round trip when i did it last week!

[BugPowderDust]

Just now, wikeeboy said:

 

Very prudent recommendation mate. I'd love to watch on as an expert runs through the process. Location may be an issue though.. it was a 7 hour round trip when i did it last week!

Well, he's done 3 (that I'm aware of) trips out to us in the Macedon Ranges so he's not scared of a drive. 
 

https://www.corsini.com.au/acoustic-assessment-form

[NonPlayableCharacter]

7 minutes ago, BugPowderDust said:

Well, he's done 3 (that I'm aware of) trips out to us in the Macedon Ranges so he's not scared of a drive. 
 

https://www.corsini.com.au/acoustic-assessment-form

 

Christian has been to my place twice and despite doing the same process each time (albeit with the room orientation changed through 90 degrees), I learned a lot each time.

 

The outcome of the second visit with regards to finding the sweet-spot for my Tannoys was like having spent $10k on an upgrade. And I haven't got to the stage of finalising room treatments yet.

[dcathro]

6 hours ago, PKay said:

Is it difficult to learn how to use the software?

 

The REW room simulator is very easy to use and intuitive. However it is somewhat limited in that it only models symmetrical cuboid rooms. If you have any of: open plan; L shaped; sloping ceiling; or other anomalies, it won't take those into account.

[dcathro]

6 hours ago, wikeeboy said:

 

Great suggestion @dcathro. We did exactly that. Entered the room dimensions in to the room sim and played around with different simulated positions. 

 

I think the next step will be running RTA while we physically move the speakers around the room and see what provides the smoothest response.

 

Did you get any promising simulations?

 

I ended up with my speakers in the spot that had the smoothest bass simulation in REW.

[stereo coffee]

On 07/12/2022 at 11:22 AM, PKay said:

Is it difficult to learn how to use the software?

Try listening instead.

[PKay]

8 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

Try listening instead.

I do. I’m just curious and I like graphs. 

[stereo coffee]

1 minute ago, PKay said:

I do. I’m just curious and I like graphs. 

There are forums ( not SNA ) that rely on the visual sense using all the prime colors and misleading figures,  they can muster, and sadly have many interested in audio totally misled  Its reassuring you enjoy the real thing too.

[Yamaha_man]

These things rarely get used at my place. I must say, the tennis sounds good tonight.  Got to love a good soundbar.