Cost-effective Hi-res Streaming to a Superior DAC

[sakabatou]

2 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

I lost my R2R virginity

 

2 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

burning bush experience

sounds like a digital STI... I think you need a reclocker

[BugPowderDust]

5 minutes ago, doogie44 said:

Did I mention non-fatiguing and musical and hearing new things in almost every digital recording I am utterly familiar with?

This is the bit I love about my MSB DAC. Just a lovely sound that, even when driven hard and loud with aggressive content, is still just a pleasant thing to listen to. 

[MattyW]

Yeah, the Aquarius is my first R2R as well though I'd dabbled in Multibit DAC's for a number of years first. Not quite the same thing but fairly similar in some respects in terms of sonics. It's definitely worthwhile feeding the DAC via a good DDC and a high precision master clock. Takes things to a whole new level 

[doogie44]

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...

 

[Setup: iPad + Qobuz + Cambridge CXN + Denafrips Pontus 2 + preamp. Wireless connection in lounge room near a TP link mode. Internet working well]

 

Now I find that my iPad can only stream to the CXN up to the limitations of Apple Airplay--way short of true Hi Res. Way short of what I have paid for in my Qobuz subscription. Around 24/48, I think.

 

I am enjoying the music generally thanks to the Denafrips. But...

 

Cambridge CXN v1 does not support Qobuz (CXN v2 does). Yet, what device could I use from my chair to stream my subscription music to my CXN v1? 

 

I can't express here on the Forum my contempt for the unnecessary complexity of what I thought would be a straightforward digital architecture. Now I have wasted many more hours trying to understand servers and renderers--and failing to find a solution. How could I? I don't really understand the intricacies. Nor does anybody else, when it comes to using an iPad, so it seems...we must be in the infancy of this application. There is a lot of talk in articles about using your iOS device--but it is only the iPhone it seems.

 

Despite trying and failing epically I have not solved my initial problem--how to stream Qobuz in Hi Res (using an iPad).

 

There must be a way. Has anybody else here on SNA achieved this? I'm willing to ditch the iPad (which I specifically bought to control Qobuz) or the CXN and start again, if that is necessary.

 

What do I need to do?

[Juzbear]

6 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...

 

[Setup: iPad + Qobuz + Cambridge CXN + Denafrips Pontus 2 + preamp. Wireless connection in lounge room near a TP link mode. Internet working well]

 

Now I find that my iPad can only stream to the CXN up to the limitations of Apple Airplay--way short of true Hi Res. Way short of what I have paid for in my Qobuz subscription. Around 24/48, I think.

 

I am enjoying the music generally thanks to the Denafrips. But...

 

Cambridge CXN v1 does not support Qobuz (CXN v2 does). Yet, what device could I use from my chair to stream my subscription music to my CXN v1? 

 

I can't express here on the Forum my contempt for the unnecessary complexity of what I thought would be a straightforward digital architecture. Now I have wasted many more hours trying to understand servers and renderers--and failing to find a solution. How could I? I don't really understand the intricacies. Nor does anybody else, when it comes to using an iPad, so it seems...we must be in the infancy of this application. There is a lot of talk in articles about using your iOS device--but it is only the iPhone it seems.

 

Despite trying and failing epically I have not solved my initial problem--how to stream Qobuz in Hi Res (using an iPad).

 

There must be a way. Has anybody else here on SNA achieved this? I'm willing to ditch the iPad (which I specifically bought to control Qobuz) or the CXN and start again, if that is necessary.

 

What do I need to do?

Have you tried to use the stream magic app to control Qobuz? I am not sure, but it is not using airplay to get to the CXN, and hence may be able to get the elusive hi-res going. You will lose the Qobuz app appearance, but stream magic is not too awful. It is an inherent characteristic of airplay that it can only do 16/44. It is possible that Cambridge will incorporate a Qobuz connect app (I don't think this exists yet), and your CXN will become able to use it, as it does with Spotify connect (basically makes the CXN the thing that streams it, rather than your iPad, which just becomes the controller). Cambridge has been pretty good with its firmware upgrades over time, and mine has a lot more functions now than when I bought it (most notably ROON, which you initially had to play over airplay, then they enable google chromecast at 24/48, and then ROON's own RAAT connection protocol which enables much higher resolution).

 

Anyway, good luck with it. At the worst, you are getting better CD quality sound than you were before. (I can hear differences between digital players, but i don't know that I can hear the difference between CD and high res!)

 

Justin

[doogie44]

Thanks, Justin.

 

I have used the Stream Magic app and the only Qobuz I can see in there is the CXN version 2 integration. As far as I know CXN v1 in Stream Magic app form does not support Qobuz at all. Yet, one day Cambridge might be inclined to offer this? Qobuz itself on the iPad controlling CXN v1 routinely selects Airplay (I assume 16/44) whether you're using the old Cambridge app or Stream Magic.

 

Since getting the Denafrips I am loving CD resolution like I never have before so not all is lost. I am far, far away from MP3 which is as it should be. Personally, I can hear the difference between 16/44 and 24/96, but not between 24/96 and 24/192. I think the quality of the original recording is the decisive factor anyway. I'm going to renew Qobuz (even if I can't yet have all it offers) for this reason.

 

I take a perverse comfort, from my reading, to see that audiophiles all over the world are tearing their hair out in efforts to make these streaming resolutions actually work in the real world. The rare few have done superhuman digital somersaults to achieve what should be straightforward.

 

One day I will find the best way to utilise the gear I do have to enjoy Hi Res seamlessly. Then I will  'have it all' (and nothing left to grizzle about)...

 

[Grimmie]

12 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Just when I thought it was safe to go back in the water...

 

[Setup: iPad + Qobuz + Cambridge CXN + Denafrips Pontus 2 + preamp. Wireless connection in lounge room near a TP link mode. Internet working well]

 

Now I find that my iPad can only stream to the CXN up to the limitations of Apple Airplay--way short of true Hi Res. Way short of what I have paid for in my Qobuz subscription. Around 24/48, I think.

 

I am enjoying the music generally thanks to the Denafrips. But...

 

Cambridge CXN v1 does not support Qobuz (CXN v2 does). Yet, what device could I use from my chair to stream my subscription music to my CXN v1? 

 

I can't express here on the Forum my contempt for the unnecessary complexity of what I thought would be a straightforward digital architecture. Now I have wasted many more hours trying to understand servers and renderers--and failing to find a solution. How could I? I don't really understand the intricacies. Nor does anybody else, when it comes to using an iPad, so it seems...we must be in the infancy of this application. There is a lot of talk in articles about using your iOS device--but it is only the iPhone it seems.

 

Despite trying and failing epically I have not solved my initial problem--how to stream Qobuz in Hi Res (using an iPad).

 

There must be a way. Has anybody else here on SNA achieved this? I'm willing to ditch the iPad (which I specifically bought to control Qobuz) or the CXN and start again, if that is necessary.

 

What do I need to do?

 

So many times I've been tempted to go digital streaming but have had cold feet knowing that as a next to useless computer/device user I'll be lost, frustrated and angry if I try.

 

So the thanks I hit in your post was for reminding me again not to be so stupid as to attempt it.

[doogie44]

Grimmie, you are not the stupid one here. I have a dream...

 

Between poorly thought-out digital architecture and the rampant commercialism (remember the demise of well-working Logitech Touch and Chromecast Audio) there is a space for a new thinker in the field who could introduce applications that revolutionise the spread of 'good' digital.

 

Like the wizards appearing in Windows OS the systems will be helped to work together. Did you see that I used the word WORK TOGETHER there? At present only those with advanced skills in programming and understanding computers can have such a hope. And don't start me on buggy programs.

 

I think this is the future of digital. Especially for relics like me.

 

BTW I am thinking that the easiest solution to my current problem is to upgrade to the CXN v2 (with integrated Qobuz) even though it's actually identical internally to the CXN v1. It would bring peace of mind and get me away from dealing with Apple Play. (I have tried to avoid having anything to do with Apple ever since it wiped out my iTunes library completely, years ago, through no fault of my own).

 

Another good digital grizzle--I feel better already.

 

 

[MrBurns84]

On 10/02/2022 at 4:32 PM, MattyW said:

It's definitely worthwhile feeding the DAC via a good DDC and a high precision master clock. Takes things to a whole new level 

Agreed, as recently i got a chance to borrow a mutec reclocker to run usb out from my Rpi4 into spdif.  Noticable difference.  I'd imagine the 10M ext clock would take this even further but this is not cheap.

17 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Personally, I can hear the difference between 16/44 and 24/96, but not between 24/96 and 24/192. I think the quality of the original recording is the decisive factor anyway. I'm going to renew Qobuz (even if I can't yet have all it offers) for this reason.

I find 16/44 and 24/96 are hit and miss.  I'm happy with standard 16/44 and my collection of tracks predominantly are made up off standard cd quality, eventhough my dac can handle up to DSD 512... the more an@l you are with this hobby..more its gonna cost 

[MattyW]

5 hours ago, MrBurns84 said:

Agreed, as recently i got a chance to borrow a mutec reclocker to run usb out from my Rpi4 into spdif.  Noticable difference.  I'd imagine the 10M ext clock would take this even further but this is not cheap.

Definitely worth it though. The best value I’m aware of are the Afterdark OCXO clocks though the Gustard C16 is a nice entry to trying these. Quite inexpensive at about $260 and power supply is built in. Likewise the Gustard U18 is the best value USB only DDC out there. The Mutec is better for converting all content to 16 bit 44k for gear that requires such.

Edited March 23, 2022 by MattyW

[MrBurns84]

34 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Definitely worth it though. The best value I’m aware of are the Afterdark OCXO clocks though the Gustard C16 is a nice entry to trying these. Quite inexpensive at about $260 and power supply is built in. Likewise the Gustard U18 is the best value USB only DDC out there. The Mutec is better for converting all content to 16 bit 44k for gear that requires such.

Yeah after the mutec experiment, i'm thinking of trying out the Gustard U18.  Seems like a good starting point.

[Juzbear]

19 hours ago, Grimmie said:

 

So many times I've been tempted to go digital streaming but have had cold feet knowing that as a next to useless computer/device user I'll be lost, frustrated and angry if I try.

 

So the thanks I hit in your post was for reminding me again not to be so stupid as to attempt it.

To be fair, streaming is really easy - your youngest relatives can use it and likely do. The issue is when ornery folks like you and me want to use a specific European streaming platform, or play our SACD copy of whoever, or route the digital signal through to our megabuck DAC using a specific connection, or don't like MQA, or subscription business models, etc., etc. . Audiophiles- they are the real issue. 

 

If you have the inclination, you can go out tomorrow an spend anything from $100 (or less), up to Linn and Naim streamers which do it all in a single box, and beyond. You will get an output to your amp, with sound at the level commensurate to cost (we hope). The things you may not get are a beautiful interface, or universal connectivity with all services. And that is without ever having to learn thing about Raspberry Pi's or anything at all DIY. I can play any of my CDs which I ripped to a hard drive through the ROON interface, though I pay for it. If I didn't have this, the interface on the Cambridge audio streamer allows me to do the same, though less easily, but still much more easily than flipping through the CDs ever was. 

 

Justin

 

[doogie44]

You are quite right. I am proud to be the audiophile problem--in the pursuit of decent technical basics for hi res streaming. I'm really not referring to CD quality or lossy content (beloved of many providers). I know that most hi res subscription content is CD quality. Would here be the place to mention that CD quality is what I consider as 'scraping in' to good quality music reprioduction? And that I have never yet used earbuds?

 

I think hi res of around 24/96 is the basic audiophile standard here to aspire to. This quality I generally find satisfactory.

 

This is what has energised me with the Qobuz subscription, and with streaming generally. As you say I can stream CD quality fairly easily. It's just that I want more. More.

 

Take me to the audiophile prison and lock me up...

 

 

 

[MattyW]

2 hours ago, MrBurns84 said:

Yeah after the mutec experiment, i'm thinking of trying out the Gustard U18.  Seems like a good starting point.

 

Performance is within spitting distance of the reigning king, the AudioGD DI20HE for a fraction of the cost. That said there are DAC's which will only handle 16 bit 44k and for those the resampling performed by the Mutec MC3+USB does a far better job than doing so in software from my own experience so it really comes down to which DAC it's being run with. I don't think it can be beat for the TDA1540/1541 based DAC's from Abbas.

[MrBurns84]

13 hours ago, MattyW said:

 

Performance is within spitting distance of the reigning king, the AudioGD DI20HE for a fraction of the cost. That said there are DAC's which will only handle 16 bit 44k and for those the resampling performed by the Mutec MC3+USB does a far better job than doing so in software from my own experience so it really comes down to which DAC it's being run with. I don't think it can be beat for the TDA1540/1541 based DAC's from Abbas.

I owned a lot of Audio-GD gear in the past..circa 10yrs ago, didn't like their house sound which was a bit dark for my liking.  That being said, their new gear probably sounds different, but i will stick with the gustard for less coin.  For the moment, im happy with my Musical paradise tweaked dac, but their usb module implementation is a bit outta date and these newer DDCs bring more to the table.

[MattyW]

6 minutes ago, MrBurns84 said:

I owned a lot of Audio-GD gear in the past..circa 10yrs ago, didn't like their house sound which was a bit dark for my liking.  That being said, their new gear probably sounds different, but i will stick with the gustard for less coin.  For the moment, im happy with my Musical paradise tweaked dac, but their usb module implementation is a bit outta date and these newer DDCs bring more to the table.

Gustard U18 is meant to come incredibly close to the DI20HE despite being quite a bit cheaper. It’s why I now run one.  
 

I’ve one of these coming for a 3rd system in the gym to use with my Lite DAC-AH. I’m hoping it doesn’t cause me to upgrade the DAC for a Musician Draco to use the I2S output….. I’ve a Tubulous I2S cable handy that was to short to use in my main system after all.

 

AU $100.75  15％ Off | HiFi Audio XMOS 208 Asynchronous USB DAC USB To Coaxial Optical SPDIF Digital Interface 384khz Upgrade TCXO 0.1PPM
https://a.aliexpress.com/_mM2HIIy

 

Looks pretty decent considering low cost and should help with budget units

Edited March 23, 2022 by MattyW

[MrBurns84]

That Lite DAC-AH needs better output coupling caps, is yours still stock? The stock ones were ok, going back many years off memory, Clarity caps were a good pairing and was quite popular.  But these days we are spoilt for choices... duelunds would be ideal but dont think they'd fit size wise.

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, MrBurns84 said:

That Lite DAC-AH needs better output coupling caps, is yours still stock? The stock ones were ok, going back many years off memory, Clarity caps were a good pairing and was quite popular.  But these days we are spoilt for choices... duelunds would be ideal but dont think they'd fit size wise.

Still stock yeah. Might add some Duelund JDM copper foil at some point if they’ll fit.

[Juzbear]

The new Wiim streamer can reputedly output hi res Qobuz via its optical (the only digital) output. This is a cheap option, but one that has a lot of promise. Whether the interface is any good is a question. They seem commited to developing it, which sounds good, with plans to be able to pass through master quality tidal. It has a DAC too, which is apparently not terrible. 

[doogie44]

On 25/03/2022 at 6:40 PM, Juzbear said:

The new Wiim streamer can reputedly output hi-res Qobuz via its optical (the only digital) output. This is a cheap option, but one that has a lot of promise.

You are a prophet, obviously. At last (one of) my digital prayers have been answered!

 

I see the new bargain Chinese WIIM Mini can output hi-res (24/192) via optical to a good DAC--AND the unit does the 'hackwork' while the app in your tablet or phone does the signalling. There have already been many updates from what seems like a responsive company (yes, I know it's unusual) and there's a PRO version in the wings which will output from a coaxial link. Yes. Straight into my Denafrips Pontus 2.

 

This really fits into my new mantra: I just want things to work (together)!

 

Now it seems I won't have to spend megabucks on new digital gear to achieve this goal. As well, I am giving my Raspberry Pi 4 away and taking an oath never to waste any more precious time on the earth plane trying to decipher or decode digital architecture; I am returning full-time to music listening. (I don't know why I thought I had to try and do it all myself.) Now I only wish to know about it, not actually know it (rather like my high performance car). Your mileage may differ, of course, especially if you frequent the high tech forums of the outer realm of digitalphilia, and live and breathe coding, bitrate and jitter. 

 

After so many years of digital 'confusion' I would have thought--with so many nerds' superior understanding of how digital works--that a new era would bloom. Maybe this is it??

 

Back in the real world this 'cheap' Wiim solution is full of promise and makes me think that somewhere in China there are dedicated people who do understand what consumers want and need: simple, workable, comprehensive, cost-effective solutions!

 

I want digital to sound great--consistently and easily. Then I can relax, and listen with pleasure, like I do with FM and LPs.

 

[I almost completed this post without having a rage attack or prolonged grizzle...maybe next time.]

 

OK--I do want it all and I don't want to pay too much. I don't have a degree in computing or I.T. Shoot me. 

 

 

 

 

[rand129678]

2 hours ago, doogie44 said:

Back in the real world this 'cheap' Wiim solution is full of promise and makes me think that somewhere in China there are dedicated people who do understand what consumers want and need: simple, workable, comprehensive, cost-effective solutions!

 

The people behind WiiM  Mini are the same behind LinkPlay who make modules used by Harman Kardon, Yamaha, JBL, Belkin. Very established for many years.

 

WiiM is just their own brand name product, but designed by same LinkPlay people

 

https://www.linkplay.com/products-powered-by-linkplay

[tripitaka]

7 hours ago, doogie44 said:

I am giving my Raspberry Pi 4 away and taking an oath never to waste any more precious time on the earth plane trying to decipher or decode digital architecture; I am returning full-time to music listening. (I don't know why I thought I had to try and do it all myself.) Now I only wish to know about it, not actually know it (rather like my high performance car). Your mileage may differ, of course, especially if you frequent the high tech forums of the outer realm of digitalphilia, and live and breathe coding, bitrate and jitter. 

 

 

 

After so many years of digital 'confusion' I would have thought--with so many nerds' superior understanding of how digital works--that a new era would bloom. Maybe this is it??

 

Back in the real world this 'cheap' Wiim solution is full of promise and makes me think that somewhere in China there are dedicated people who do understand what consumers want and need: simple, workable, comprehensive, cost-effective solutions!

 

I want digital to sound great--consistently and easily. Then I can relax, and listen with pleasure, like I do with FM and LPs.

 

[I almost completed this post without having a rage attack or prolonged grizzle...maybe next time.]

 

OK--I do want it all and I don't want to pay too much. I don't have a degree in computing or I.T. Shoot me. 

 

 

 

 

 

You could sell your RPi4 at a profit if you wanted, there is a global shortage of em!

[POV]

I have a Wiim Mini, bought it out of interest just to see what it was like (I love to experiment with budget-fi in my shed system for fun)  Not a bad unit, by any stretch but also not a complete solution (no Chromecast and not Roon Ready).  Notably, for the budget streamer, if have a DAC with 2 optical inputs then a Wiim Mini and Chromecast Audio gives you a complete solution on a budget.  Neither product is going to set the world on fire in terms of sound quality but you have pretty well all bases covered from a streaming point of view.  Both can be upgraded with low noise power supplies from iFi.

 

I still feel that the Bluesound Node is the best bang for buck for the budget conscious streamer, albeit a considerable jump in cost above the Wiim Mini, but also a significant jump in sound quality, usability, user interface etc.

Edited July 23, 2022 by POV

[doogie44]

I still feel that the Bluesound Node is the best bang for buck for the budget conscious streamer, albeit a considerable jump in cost above the Wiim Mini, but also a significant jump in sound quality, usability, user interface etc

 

Interesting, thanks,

 

All I ever wanted to do was use my iPad to stream Qobuz in hi res to my system.

 

The thing that attracted me with the Wiim was that the Wiim app controlled the 24/96+ streamer (unlike the iPad Qobuz app which must CD-quality iOS Airplay bitrate).

 

Does the Bluesound do this?

[POV]

Yeah with Bluesound you'll need to use the BluOS application but that's a good thing though as it's a very well sorted, well presented app that is intuitive and slick.  It looks great on an iPad and Qobuz integration is seamless.  Actually prefer Qobuz via Bluos than Qobuz's own app which I still find is a bit clunky.  Confirm supports up to 192/24.  As with all streamers you'll get better stability for high res streams with hardwired ethernet rather than wifi.  (another advantage there actually over the Wiim which is wifi only)