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Burn-in


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I'm never sure about this, but the new pre-amp is just nearing its 200 hours as recommended by the manufacturer. I've had it on 24 hours—music during the day and FM inter-station hiss (close to white noise) at night, and it is definitely improving. 

 

Maybe the designers and manufacturers do know their own equipment.:)

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I have some new cables arriving soon and have been advised that 125hours is the magic burn-in figure. Never had a clear idea of what burning in actually meant ? 

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There are a variety of CD's from Nordost, Isotek and other companies with specific tracks dedicated to burn-in. Do these help or just use the components and let time go by.

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21 minutes ago, 075Congo said:

I have some new cables arriving soon and have been advised that 125hours is the magic burn-in figure. Never had a clear idea of what burning in actually meant ? 

It's supposed to be a time in which the articles have their physical properties stabilise at their optimum values and hence start to perform at their best. It's obvious for car run-in, etc.; less so for electrical components; and even less for non-active components like cables—but differences are reported and burn-in is the new orthodoxy. 

17 minutes ago, 075Congo said:

There are a variety of CD's from Nordost, Isotek and other companies with specific tracks dedicated to burn-in. Do these help or just use the components and let time go by.

They are reported to speed up the process but time should do the same job.

 

 

 

Edited by GregWormald
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Hifi electronic components have burn in time, which is accepted by most people.  More controversial is burn in time for cables and their plugs, be they analogue or digital, interconnects or power etc.  

 

Enjoy your pre-amp... 👍

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2 hours ago, 075Congo said:

Never had a clear idea of what burning in actually meant ? 

In my experience, it's usually the length of time spent with something that means it's beyond the return period, or the point in time that you've gotten so used to something that you get used to it and don't feel like returning it because of post-purchase validation.

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32 minutes ago, Mightygrey said:

In my experience, it's usually the length of time spent with something that means it's beyond the return period, or the point in time that you've gotten so used to something that you get used to it and don't feel like returning it because of post-purchase validation.

Sarcastic Joke GIF

 

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40 minutes ago, Mightygrey said:

In my experience, it's usually the length of time spent with something that means it's beyond the return period, or the point in time that you've gotten so used to something that you get used to it and don't feel like returning it because of post-purchase validation.


Totally agree with this, and the manufacturers know it too.  As I have said before I consider manufacturers recommendation for burn-in of electronic components to be a very clever form of risk management!

Edited by POV
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13 minutes ago, POV said:


Totally agree with this, and the manufacturers know it too.  As I have said before I consider manufacturers recommendation for burn-in of electronic components to be a very clever form of risk management!

Good for you Drew.

Manufacturer's are really dicey. I wouldnt buy anything from them.

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21 minutes ago, POV said:


Totally agree with this, and the manufacturers know it too.  As I have said before I consider manufacturers recommendation for burn-in of electronic components to be a very clever form of risk management!

And what if you are wrong?

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1 hour ago, muon* said:

And what if you are wrong?

 

Well then I'll be wrong.   🙂  Despite what you may think of me, I'd actually be very happy to see some evidence emerge supporting some of these things and as a career design engineer I'm very comfortable with having my thinking re-informed by the emergence of evidence.  In the mean time though I'll stay on the side of what I have learnt, seen and experienced for myself.   One thing I believe is that no self-respecting manufacturer of anything would allow it to leave their factory knowing it was not operating optimally and going to be subject to varied and uncontrolled improvements in performance over time, this would simply be an intolerable situation from a quality control point of view.

 

Anyways @GregWormald not trying to take your thread of track.  If your preamp is sounding better to you then that sounds like a good thing.  I hope you enjoy it!

Edited by POV
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Thanks, I'm really enjoying it.

 

As for 

4 minutes ago, POV said:

One thing I believe is that no self-respecting manufacturer of anything would allow it to leave their factory knowing it was going to be subject to varied and uncontrolled changes in performance over time, this would simply be an intolerable situation from a quality control point of view.

Electronics manufacturers talk about capacitors and other components "forming" over time. Manufacturers of many sorts of complex machinery, including speakers and all motor vehicles know the performance changes as the parts wear in. These are not usually "varied and uncontrolled changes" but expectations based on basic physics, material sciences, and experience.

 

What do you know that doesn't change over time and use?

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13 minutes ago, GregWormald said:

 

 

What do you know that doesn't change over time and use?

 

Sorry if I wasn't clear.  I'm not talking about wear and tear over a products usable life.  I'm talking about a product not operating optimally at the time it leaves the factory and then being subject to change (read improvement towards optimal) in an environment that is outside of their control.   My previous company designed and manufactured very expensive communication equipment, mostly for the civil aviation and defence industries.  We never, and I mean never experienced a product changing in any way over hours of use, though we did (as part of our standard processes) take a full suite of measurements at first power on, then again at the conclusion of it's set to work process.   In all of my time their I never once saw system component measure materially differently unless there was an actual fault in it (generally due to component failure or manufacturing quality control issues). 

 

I understand that some folks here intensely dislike me sharing my opinions on such subjects, but really just I'm just sharing my views and experiences.  I'm really not trying to ruin anyone's day!

 

 

Edited by POV
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11 minutes ago, POV said:

I understand that some folks here intensely dislike me sharing my opinions on such subjects, but really just I'm just sharing my views and experiences.  I'm really not trying to ruin anyone's day!

Who's that? I'm sharing my views and opinions as well. My experience was 35 years in the HiFi industry. Using my frontal lobes and ears for measuring. (Bla bla. I get boring.) Not some electronic instrument somebody made. Did'nt know we had a defence Industry by the way. That's great. 

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Optimally is about operating points and other design aspects to meet a certain level of performance, and the performance can meet this and still the sound can get somewhat better over the initial burn in.

 

Many many  hobbyists and manufacturers and designers have observed this.

 

Edit: some of these designers are legends and many are very highly respected.

Edited by muon*
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I used to experience burn in with every new component when I was younger but as I've gotten older I've heard it less and less till this year I didn't hear it at all with my latest component. I guess my ears are experiencing burn out.

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Sorry, 

 

im on the other side of the fence,   Burn in for “wires”. Seriously!    
It’s all physiological, basically manufacturers trying to convinced you to accept it after 100s of hrs are there way of saying “please accept”.    If the SQ doesn’t agree with you,  return it and get a refund.   

Edited by Addicted to music
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7 minutes ago, Addicted to music said:

Sorry, 

 

im on the other side of the fence,   Burn in for “wires”. Seriously!    
It’s all physiological, basically manufacturers trying to convinced you to accept it after 100s of hrs are there way of saying “please accept”.    If the SQ doesn’t agree with you,  return it and get a refund.   

The OP is talking about a pre amplifier *sigh*

 

Edit: as for cables, just because the theory says no, doesn't mean in practice it is no. It may not make sense to you but reality is under no obligation to make sense to you, or me or anyone else.

Edited by muon*
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37 minutes ago, muon* said:

Optimally is about operating points and other design aspects to meet a certain level of performance, and the performance can meet this and still the sound can get somewhat better over the initial burn in.

 

Many many  hobbyists and manufacturers and designers have observed this.

 

Edit: some of these designers are legends and many are very highly respected.


For me this is simply a different take on the same point.  I am actually not coming at this from a ‘do products improve or do they not’ point of view.  What you are describing is (I believe) a scenario where the products meets the manufacturers performance standard but is then subject to further change once operated for a period of time by the consumer.  It’s this period that I am saying is intolerable from a quality control point of view.  Agin in the scenario you describe this would place the manufacturer in a situation where they knowingly release said product to their customer expecting the product performance to change, but for this to happen in an environment that they cannot control.  It’s this point that I am principally focussed on.  I do note that it is assumed that the change will be an improvement, but it’s not at all clear to me how the manufacturer could ensure this.

 

I’m not sure which hifi legends you are referring to, but I’d be very happy to take a read of anything they have written on the subject of you can point me to it.

 

 

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Eh, this is groundhog day again.

 

Same old threads on topics like this one with the same old view points from same different people the same as before, and before that, and before that....what year and century will I stop at 🤣

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1 hour ago, Wimbo said:

Who's that? I'm sharing my views and opinions as well. My experience was 35 years in the HiFi industry. Using my frontal lobes and ears for measuring. (Bla bla. I get boring.) Not some electronic instrument somebody made. Did'nt know we had a defence Industry by the way. That's great. 


Hey no worries, and I am really glad that you are doing so.  That’s what makes the forum interesting.  👍

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For what it's worth, the insulation on cables is much the same as the dielectric in capacitors, and there is evidence dielectrics change over time, and capacitor behaviour does alter. That said the most common dielectrics and insulation change extremely slowly but nonetheless there is a theoretical mechanism for cables changing behaviour as well. So if cables have a sound, they could also change with time.

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