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Power cables - improvement real or imagined?


GregSki

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2 hours ago, Plasmod3 said:

Hmmm the unbelievers haven't posted on  this thread yet? That's the most amazing thing ever😂. Don't get me wrong I am pro cables but there is a lot of dissent in the ranks on this topic here haha

I did, but only answered the one question asked, as I didn't want to unnecessarily offend by labouring the point after that as clearly they weren't really asking a question, they just wanted confirmation of their cognitive bias.

Edited by Ittaku
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4 hours ago, genkifd said:

ive had similar experiences with power cables. the dynamics seems to be increased. less restrained.  saying so even interconnects makes a difference. pitting i have never tested speaker, hdmi, coaxial, acss or usb cables.

 

 

 

I have never, ever, found a power cable that made any improvement in my system. I think the money is better spent on upgrading speaker and IC cables,which DO yield a tangible benefit.

 

With that said, I am not here to make light of anybody's experiences that were/are positive. It is your money, your life and your system and may the god of audio smile upon you.

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1 hour ago, Plasmod3 said:

Haha there we go:-) the audio dissonance continues:-)

Hang on a minute... Is this thread only for expressing positive experiences? I wouldn't have thought so from the title..

 

Some groups feel very fragile it seems...

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5 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

Hang on a minute... Is this thread only for expressing positive experiences? I wouldn't have thought so from the title..

 

Some groups feel very fragile it seems...

Was about post something clever or even funny as a reply. But will just bail out of contributing, as it’s gone down the path of who is right/wrong again.
Just not interested. 

Neo

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4 minutes ago, Neo said:

Was about post something clever or even funny as a reply. But will just bail out of contributing, as it’s gone down the path of who is right/wrong again.
Just not interested. 

Neo

I just thought it was a genuine question in the title. But it seems I have been duped.. LOL It just annoys me that certain parties insist that it the experience of the listener that is the only valid answer, as long as it doesn't go against their beliefs....

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3 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

I just thought it was a genuine question in the title. But it seems I have been duped.. LOL It just annoys me that certain parties insist that it the experience of the listener that is the only valid answer, as long as it doesn't go against their beliefs....

Now I have really tuned out.

Neo

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5 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

I just thought it was a genuine question in the title. But it seems I have been duped.. LOL It just annoys me that certain parties insist that it the experience of the listener that is the only valid answer, as long as it doesn't go against their beliefs....

There are no beliefs (a lot of people seem to get hung up on this) just looks like observations. I'm all for that and take it for what it is. Just someone's subjective observation. Love reading about others and what they find they hear. Wether they hear something different or they don't. Its all good in this hobby.

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On 18/09/2021 at 2:31 PM, GregSki said:

On the other hand I’m getting more audible transformer hum from my amp over stock standard cord.  Any ideas as why that is or has anyone had similar experience and any advice on how to lower the transformer noise?

I see that the marketing for the DIALOGUE PREMIUM HP states:

 

AC Offset Killer - A PrimaLuna Exclusive

DiaLogue Premium is about goose bumps. The ones you get when music comes out of a background so quiet, you may say to yourself “Just how is this possible?”

PrimaLuna custom-winds our own massive toroidal power transformers that are low in hum and EMI. But we wanted more. Our engineers designed the AC Offset Killer to lower transformer noise to a place no other manufacturer dreams of going, regardless of how bad your electricity is. The result? Sense of space. Texture. The resonance of an acoustic guitar or violin string that seems to trail on forever. The AC Offset Killer will amaze you.

 

How it is that you can hear hum is surprising when the manufacturer boasts as above! Can you actually hear hum when in your listening chair, or only with your head near the amplifier?

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17 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

I see that the marketing for the DIALOGUE PREMIUM HP states:

 

AC Offset Killer - A PrimaLuna Exclusive

DiaLogue Premium is about goose bumps. The ones you get when music comes out of a background so quiet, you may say to yourself “Just how is this possible?”

PrimaLuna custom-winds our own massive toroidal power transformers that are low in hum and EMI. But we wanted more. Our engineers designed the AC Offset Killer to lower transformer noise to a place no other manufacturer dreams of going, regardless of how bad your electricity is. The result? Sense of space. Texture. The resonance of an acoustic guitar or violin string that seems to trail on forever. The AC Offset Killer will amaze you.

 

How it is that you can hear hum is surprising when the manufacturer boasts as above! Can you actually hear hum when in your listening chair, or only with your head near the amplifier?

 

My guess was he was hearing the hum coming out of the speakers?

And it does not get louder as he turns up the volume, so thought maybe ground loop.

 

I also thought the only way a change of power cable could make a transformer hum may be one is wired incorrectly, like say the active neutral the wrong way around?

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45 minutes ago, MLXXX said:

I see that the marketing for the DIALOGUE PREMIUM HP states:

 

AC Offset Killer - A PrimaLuna Exclusive

DiaLogue Premium is about goose bumps. The ones you get when music comes out of a background so quiet, you may say to yourself “Just how is this possible?”

PrimaLuna custom-winds our own massive toroidal power transformers that are low in hum and EMI. But we wanted more. Our engineers designed the AC Offset Killer to lower transformer noise to a place no other manufacturer dreams of going, regardless of how bad your electricity is. The result? Sense of space. Texture. The resonance of an acoustic guitar or violin string that seems to trail on forever. The AC Offset Killer will amaze you.

 

How it is that you can hear hum is surprising when the manufacturer boasts as above! Can you actually hear hum when in your listening chair, or only with your head near the amplifier?

Yes I know about Primaluna AC offset killer and own transformers. the hum is audible when standing next to the amp. It doesn’t come from speakers. I can’t hear it from sitting position when music is playing. I can vaguely hear from sitting position when music doesn’t play. I’ve also noticed the hum subsides somewhat when amp is fully warmed up after an hour of playing or so. It doesn’t disappear but is a bit less audible. 
 

I’m generally happy with the amp. It’s probably a bit less holographic with less depth than I expected but it may be my speakers are not dialled in perfectly. I’m getting some Vicoustic multifuser further down the track to see if it makes a difference. 

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59 minutes ago, rocky500 said:

I also thought the only way a change of power cable could make a transformer hum may be one is wired incorrectly,

 Pretty much, except in maybe some edge cases.  Keeping in mind however, that some exotic cables could well be a bit lacking in the normal safety and wiring standards.  I would advise caution with anything boutique, 3rd party, when it comes to mains power.  Ground lift cables come to mind. Also, safety ground wiring with incorrect colouring, and even gauge. The average punter may not be aware how dangerous this can be.

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39 minutes ago, rantan said:

 

...................which is healthy so long as it happens respectfully.

 

 

Absolutely.  I actually enjoy a lot of the content in this section and there is some really informative posting from many folks.  I don't understand posters that enter threads in the Great Debate Section seemingly to deride debate  🤷‍♂️

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On 22/09/2021 at 12:00 PM, rantan said:

 

...................which is healthy so long as it happens respectfully.

 

... and also even healthier still , noting the respect , when discussion begins asking questions that create the landscape of Why,  One of those big questions being that the house wiring before the cable and its contribution, that does not magically disappear with 2 or 3 metres of other type of cable in front of it.

 

If a power cable is contributing then it falls under us requiring a better understanding of series circuits, lets call the circuit,  cable A + cable B which invites perhaps knowing more about that particular cables construction when B assesses being different to A

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On 21/09/2021 at 9:13 AM, rantan said:

 

I have never, ever, found a power cable that made any improvement in my system.

 

 

Well, I have to differ, R.  :)

 

I have recently been on a (possibly!) Quixotic task to eliminate any noise that I can hear from my spkrs, when there is no input being played.

 

I found that where interconnects - even shielded ones - must run close to power cables ... the noise level from the spkrs can be reduced to zero by using shielded power cables.

 

Andy

 

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1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

If a power cable is contributing then it falls under us requiring a better understanding of series circuits, lets call the circuit,  cable A + cable B which invites perhaps knowing more about that particular cables construction when B assesses being different to A

If this is even a question, then, yes, it does require a better understanding.

 

1 hour ago, stereo coffee said:

... and also even healthier still , noting the respect , when discussion begins asking questions that create the landscape of Why,  One of those big questions being that the house wiring before the cable and its contribution, that does not magically disappear with 2 or 3 metres of other type of cable in front of it.

Not to mention the many kilometres of power line before the transformer in the street…. It is all absolutely irrelevant to your hifi.  The clue as to why power cords can make a difference is in the perspective.  Alternating current means the flow of electrons along the power cable is moved forward AND backwards at a rate of 50Hz.  This is why the last 2-3 metres matter.  As the current draw from the equipment increases, the effective density of the electrons moving (forward and backward) increases.  Your equipment only draws current from this last 2-3m, unless it has very high current draw.

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1 hour ago, Stereophilus said:

If this is even a question, then, yes, it does require a better understanding.

 

Not to mention the many kilometres of power line before the transformer in the street…. It is all absolutely irrelevant to your hifi.  The clue as to why power cords can make a difference is in the perspective.  Alternating current means the flow of electrons along the power cable is moved forward AND backwards at a rate of 50Hz.  This is why the last 2-3 metres matter.  As the current draw from the equipment increases, the effective density of the electrons moving (forward and backward) increases.  Your equipment only draws current from this last 2-3m, unless it has very high current draw.

As any circuit breaker event will prove, current is ultimately drawn from the power grid itself, but more easily visualised by the switchboard at your house,which stops current via circuit breakers being exceeded.  Equipment draws from the circuit breaker to limit current, but before that a meter placed these days inductively, but ultimately your connection to the street transformer and then via Lorentz transformation equations to the grid.  As such all AC wiring matters, and is referenced to 50hz at the power station delivering,

 

Why a 2-3 metre extension to hundreds of kilometres before it matters, would need greater explanation IMO , it may as example provide a small AC inductive reactance difference that changes slightly the relationship of voltage and current over that small final section https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-inductance.html

 

It may be too that the manufacturers have studied the atypical toroidal transformer load,  and found some very small advantage in pre conditioning the mains delivery, by using the cable as providing a conduit offering better transformer performance. The cable then acting as a filter.

  https://www.powerelectronics.com/content/article/21858116/power-transformer-attenuates-harmonics

 

Instead of getting fixated alone about cables attaching to transformers or hifi gear, the focus as well IMO should be about far better rectification. the LT4320 presents itself as a ideal product,  and IMO rectifiers using diodes are always problematic, a thyristor is a far superior rectifier, which is why I use them   https://www.analog.com/en/products/lt4320.html

 

 

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40 minutes ago, stereo coffee said:

As any circuit breaker event will prove, current is ultimately drawn from the power grid itself, but more easily visualised by the switchboard at your house,which stops current via circuit breakers being exceeded.  Equipment draws from the circuit breaker to limit current, but before that a meter placed these days inductively, but ultimately your connection to the street transformer and then via Lorentz transformation equations to the grid.  As such all AC wiring matters, and is referenced to 50hz at the power station delivering,

 

Why a 2-3 metre extension to hundreds of kilometres before it matters, would need greater explanation IMO , it may as example provide a small AC inductive reactance difference that changes slightly the relationship of voltage and current over that small final section https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/ac-inductance.html

 

It may be too that the manufacturers have studied the atypical toroidal transformer load,  and found some very small advantage in pre conditioning the mains delivery, by using the cable as providing a conduit offering better transformer performance. The cable then acting as a filter.

  https://www.powerelectronics.com/content/article/21858116/power-transformer-attenuates-harmonics

 

Instead of getting fixated alone about cables attaching to transformers or hifi gear, the focus as well IMO should be about far better rectification. the LT4320 presents itself as a ideal product,  and IMO rectifiers using diodes are always problematic, a thyristor is a far superior rectifier, which is why I use them   https://www.analog.com/en/products/lt4320.html

 

 

There is no “final section”.  Alternating Current operates in a loop, hence the terminology “circuit”.  Circuit breakers are just the flow limiting point in that loop.  If an electronic device draws too much current for the narrowest section to cope with, it fails and the circuit breaks.
 

Be careful not to mistake this situation for DC. The current flow for an AC circuit is both forwards and backwards.  We may represent that as a sine wave, but make no mistake about what is actually happening.  Electrons move forward and backward equally within that power cord.  If we average their position over time, the electrons are stationary in an AC circuit when current flows.

 

Probably the easiest way to visualise this is the Newton’s Cradle toy:

 

image.jpeg.3fc3492a843c528c300e900d05744763.jpeg

 

I have no dispute that rectification is very important (especially in so called linear power supplies), and I also concur that power cords may act as filters (and this may be a reason that some people hear a difference when using different power cords).  The section of the AC circuit closest to the rectifier is critical because this is where we harness the electromotive force of electrons moving (backwards and forwards) in one circuit (our mains circuit to our hifi) and use it to force electrons to flow in one direction around a very different circuit (ie the DC circuit in our equipment).

 

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4 hours ago, Stereophilus said:

If this is even a question, then, yes, it does require a better understanding.

 

Not to mention the many kilometres of power line before the transformer in the street…. It is all absolutely irrelevant to your hifi.  The clue as to why power cords can make a difference is in the perspective.  Alternating current means the flow of electrons along the power cable is moved forward AND backwards at a rate of 50Hz.  This is why the last 2-3 metres matter.  As the current draw from the equipment increases, the effective density of the electrons moving (forward and backward) increases.  Your equipment only draws current from this last 2-3m, unless it has very high current draw.

I'm not sure what you mean by the highlighted statement. Current in a circuit is continuous for the whole length of the circuit, from the power plant to your equipment, and back to the power plant.

 

I think I'm missing the point of what you are saying, somehow?

 

 

 

 

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24 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

I'm not sure what you mean by the highlighted statement. Current in a circuit is continuous for the whole length of the circuit, from the power plant to your equipment, and back to the power plant.

 

I think I'm missing the point of what you are saying, somehow?

 

 

 

 

Conceptually a poor choice of words on my part.  You are right that the current is continuous in the whole circuit.  However, if you read my follow up post I do define my meaning further.

 

Interesting that the YouTube video you linked diagrammatically shows the mains flow as DC… this is how many people believe it works (or at least visualise it that way).  It is wrong.

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Interesting You Tube video from NZ "electrical noise on your power line" which demonstrates how effective an Isotek Power Conditioner is in removing noise from your mains supply. Worth watching. The filters Isotek use in their conditioner eliminated all noise measured by the hand-held analyser. Adding shielded power cables to a power conditioner in your system makes good sense.

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