Linn LP12 Owners & Discussion Thread

[NellyJamba]

This TT has been around for 30 years and had gone through numerous upgrades over these years. Now and then, some older models will appear on ebay and still command a hefy price (for the kind of condition they are in). Exactly, what is so good about this turntable?

It is old and yet it is not exactly a collectible since there are so many around and the company is still operating. This is unlike Micro Seiki or Garrard which are no longer in production. Next, sorry guys, it is not at all good looking. Not even when I take into consideration that it is a vintage TT.

A turntable guru on this forum told me that they are still a favourite among the money-no-object audiophiles and that made me scratch my head even further.

Sort of like a friend of mine who was a well to do professional, highly talented musician, had killer looks, came from a rich family, envy of the class, but would rather date an ugly looking bird. Ok, I exaggerated.

So exactly where and what is the appeal of a Linn Sondek LP12?

[Tony C]

Hello Nelly Jamba,

The upside of comapnies like Linn is they allow thier products to evolve and their clientel to come along and upgrade should they choose to.

It protects the credibility of the product, encourages loyalty with the client base, protects the buyers investment and unlike the japaneese who prostitute themselves with new models every calander year, they have some belief in what they are selling.

The Chineese and japaneese can learn alot from Europeans and some American companies mindsets.

Tony C

[davidsss]

From what I can work out the Linn's are very good TTs and they have a signature sound which is popular. I would go for a big Micro Seiki before a Linn, but I would say that . I think they are overpriced in the second hand market but there is no doubting that it is a very good piece of equipment and the incremental development of the LP12 has meant that, even though it is an old design, it is still a viable product today. There was a debate about this on Audiogon recently and the consensus seemed to be that you could buy better for less if you bought a new turntable from VPI or the like. But, the Linn faithful would dispute this.

DS

[Tony C]

Davidsss,

I respect the Linn because of it evolutionary developement. I likewise don't own one although I did some time back.

The difficulty when judging the Linn is the attention to detail in setting up the tension on the suspension system and choosing a tonearm that will work effectively with the plinth and suspension system.

Too many Linns are just not well set up so comparisons and judgements on the product become a little unfair.

How many Linn owners here reset the suspension sytem every two or three years?

I have lost count how many high mass catridges are fitted to low mass arms with the Linns out there.

Good product,for those willing to invest the time in understanding it.

Tony C

[NellyJamba]

Hi Tony,

Ok, agree, the philosophy might be good in that it is an upgrade king like a Subaru WRX. The downside is that where do you end? Or you don't and that is the appeal?

I just found this thread on the forum and on the hindsight should have posted my question there. http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/showthread.php?t=13073

The suspension set up process sounds frustrating.

[Tony C]

Nelly Jamba,

I perhaps should have mentioned the Japaneese Technics SL 1200 turntable which has served the DJ market for years. There are exceptions.

I guess for owners of a LP 12 they consider themselves to belong to a large family who own a proven product. Its history is interesting the general consensus of the dday was to spend a disproportionate amount on the speakers. The Ivor came along with the Linn with the understanding of garbage in garbage out.

Owners can choose to pay for the upgrades should they wish too, which to some may seem costly, but better than selling on the second hand market to pay a premium price to re enter the market. Products that enjoy long life cycles enjoy success and credibility as it instills confidence with current owners and brings a sense of worth to new buyers. A product that has been around this long must have something going for it.

The Linn might not have the ultimate authority in the Low end, (comparig with Sota's oracles, Vpi ect but when set up properly has a fluid midrange and very engaging sound.

Best Tony C

[null object]

Hello, I am a noob here and a bit of a noob in the hifi world too. I had the choice of a VPI or a LP12. I took the LP12 becaust it had a valhalla power supply, Ittok II arm and a Troika cartrage.

being quite young at the time I got it almost 10 years ago, (25) I should have went with the VPI simply dur to the fact that in that time I have had 8 house moves, lots of drunk parties, a bunch of mishaps removing the lid etc. I'm sure it's all out of whack but I am still in the process of settling and the speakers are off getting repaired anyway.

The suspension system is very delicate and I think I would have prefered the VPI. Still sounds great though.

[Tony C]

Hello Null Object,

Some nice gear you have there.

Another Duntech owner on the forum.

Good news, after your speakers return to you all is not lost with the Linn.

Some loving care with the LP 12 and you can be back in Hi FI heaven.

Be sure to level your rack or cabinet before setting up the turntable.

Tony C

[NellyJamba]

Nelly Jamba,

I perhaps should have mentioned the Japaneese Technics SL 1200 turntable which has served the DJ market for years. There are exceptions.

I guess for owners of a LP 12 they consider themselves to belong to a large family who own a proven product. Its history is interesting the general consensus of the dday was to spend a disproportionate amount on the speakers. The Ivor came along with the Linn with the understanding of garbage in garbage out.

Owners can choose to pay for the upgrades should they wish too, which to some may seem costly, but better than selling on the second hand market to pay a premium price to re enter the market. Products that enjoy long life cycles enjoy success and credibility as it instills confidence with current owners and brings a sense of worth to new buyers. A product that has been around this long must have something going for it.

The Linn might not have the ultimate authority in the Low end, (comparig with Sota's oracles, Vpi ect but when set up properly has a fluid midrange and very engaging sound.

Best Tony C

Tony, that is very well said and very well articulated. Thanks.

The success of the Sondeks made it intriguing due to the factors I have already mentioned. An incredible staying power says something about it and I am hoping to find out.

And I wouldn't mind being proven wrong about my impression of the Sondek.

[A9X]

So exactly where and what is the appeal of a Linn Sondek LP12?

The reason it is so popular is because of the exceptional marketing skills of IT. He generated an enormous amount of interest for his product and it became the darling of the then dominant British hi fi press in the late 70's.

Having owned three of them, I see no reason for it's popularity. It is an average deck with poor design that is difficult to set up and keep that way, it has a distinct sonic signature and requires so many tweeks to keep it up to any sort of standard that it's a joke.

In the intervening years we have had many decks which have improved upon it greatly. As well as decks like the Garrards and the SP10 which were always better than it.

[Tony C]

Hello A9X,

You are right in saying ist was marketed. The philosophy of limited distribution added to the image it was creating.

It was not alone in its setting up, Thorens, Systemdeck, Sota, Acoustic research are a few other that come to mind where plinths were sold seperately and the end user was responsible for siting and mounting the tonearm and taking full responsibility for the set up from beginning to end.

The days of threading reel to reel tapes and tinkering with turnyables and biasing valve amplifiers vanished for ther masses when we were sold on black boxes called CD players.

Best Tony C

[A9X]

Hello A9X,

You are right in saying ist was marketed. The philosophy of limited distribution added to the image it was creating.

It was not alone in its setting up, Thorens, Systemdeck, Sota, Acoustic research are a few other that come to mind where plinths were sold seperately and the end user was responsible for siting and mounting the tonearm and taking full responsibility for the set up from beginning to end.

The days of threading reel to reel tapes and tinkering with turnyables and biasing valve amplifiers vanished for ther masses when we were sold on black boxes called CD players.

Best Tony C

IT was the one most to blame for the audio guru phenomena of arcane limited knowledge and skills that were required to achieve perfect set up or component matching etc that lives to this day.

I've had AR (mine is still in use with a friend with a Linn Basik on it) and Thorens and neither were as difficult to set up of keep that way vs the LP12.

It's not a bad deck, but nowhere near as good as the mythology and hype surrounding it suggest it to be.

I still have an R2R too.

[Ken]

It is old and yet it is not exactly a collectible since there are so many around and the company is still operating. This is unlike Micro Seiki or Garrard which are no longer in production. Next, sorry guys, it is not at all good looking. Not even when I take into consideration that it is a vintage TT.

So exactly where and what is the appeal of a Linn Sondek LP12?

NellyJamba,

You list a number of criteria; you do not consider the LP12 to be collectable; you do not consider it to be good looking; you do not mention the sound surely the main criteria of any piece of equipment.

The reason it is so popular is because of the exceptional marketing skills of IT. He generated an enormous amount of interest for his product and it became the darling of the then dominant British hi fi press in the late 70's.

Having owned three of them, I see no reason for it's popularity. It is an average deck with poor design that is difficult to set up and keep that way, it has a distinct sonic signature and requires so many tweeks to keep it up to any sort of standard that it's a joke.

In the intervening years we have had many decks which have improved upon it greatly. As well as decks like the Garrards and the SP10 which were always better than it.

Hi A9X,

Whilst I agree that Ivor got the marketing of the LP12 spot on, to have lasted for 35 years, and, to have been voted the most influential product in Hi-Fi history by both USA and UK reviewers it proves to me that they had to have a good product to start with.

The one thing that grew into a total myth (and it was perpetuated by Ivor) was that set up was difficult and could only be performed correctly by a factory trained technician, this was his marketing genius at its best. In reality it takes an average user no longer than 30 minutes to set up an LP12, the instructions are widely available on the WWW.

I have owned many LP12’s between 1977 through to 2004, although I do not have an LP12 now, I am sure I will own one again.

I disagree with your comment that the SP10 is a better sounding deck, it is definitely a different sound, but, I would not agree it was better sounding, I currently own two SP10’s.

I do agree that many, many decks have improved on the sound of the LP12, but usually only at a price far in excess of the LP12.

Ken

[goopie]

In the 70s, Ivor Tiefenbrun and the LP12 completely changed the way people viewed the Audio chain. Prior to the Linn, speakers were considered the most important part of the chain and the component that most affected the sound. Turntables, despite all their inherent problems, weren't considered important. Tiefenbrun used the computer term 'garbage in garbage out' to change the system hierarchy. Turntables were the source of the sound you heard via your speakers. The Linn LP12 drove development of Turntable design, so many more Turntables came to the market as audio designers rethought their approach to system hierarchy. How many Turntables, all with their individual and different approaches, are available today? Little wonder the LP12 became so famous.

Tone arm and cartridge design were also completely rethought by Linn. Structural rigidity, resonance and effective mass were now the key words in Tone Arm design thanks to Linn. Moving Coil cartridges, long considered too problematical, were given a new lease of life. Would you even think of not using a Moving Coil Cartridge with a Turntable today?

Linn also pioneered the retrofit, ongoing updates to the product so you didn't have to scrap it and buy a new one when Linn came up with new ideas. Linn valued its customer base and gave them a relatively cheap way to keep their product up to date. That attitude contrasted sharply with the Japanese producers at the time, who would bring out a new model of a product almost on an annual basis. You bought say an amplifier from them and the next year your investment was rendered obsolete. Most of the time the new model just had cosmetic differences. Little wonder Linn developed such fiercely loyal customers.

That the LP12 is still sold today as the same design is remarkable. It's still a very good Turntable. I have owned one for over 30 years and never tired of its sound. The source of your music is as important today as it was when Tiefenbrun first brought the LP12 to the market.

Edited April 9, 2009 by goopie
Typos

[A9X]

In the 70s, Ivor Tiefenbrun and the LP12 completely changed the way people viewed the Audio chain. Prior to the Linn, speakers were considered the most important part of the chain and the component that most affected the sound. Turntables, despite all their inherent problems, weren't considered important. Tiefenbrun used the computer term 'garbage in garbage out' to change the system hierarchy.

Great marketing, because he was selling basically a tweaked Ariston and for convincing people that GIGO applied. At that time he was only selling TT's so it made him a lot of money.

However catchy it might seem, the speakers/room have far more effect on the system sound than a TT will.

Agree that the LP12 was the precursor for a lot of TT and arm engineering.

[Tony C]

Hello goopie,

Very well thought out post. Very good for a first effort.

Look forward to more of your contributions.

Welcome to the community.

Tony C

[NellyJamba]

Hi Goopie, good post.

I also realised you just joined SNA. Welcome to the forum and look forward to reading more of your posts in the future.

However, if what A9X said is true, that you need to tweek it everytime to get it up to standard, you have to start wondering if it is worth the effort. Yes, part of the joy of being a music lover is about understanding your system through being hands-on. But I would be annoyed that everytime I am in the mood for music, I have to provision 30min to 1hr effort prior to spinning the record to get something decent sounding. I hope that is not true.

[andyr]

From what I can work out the Linn's are very good TTs and they have a signature sound which is popular. I would go for a big Micro Seiki before a Linn, but I would say that .

DS

Can I suggest you need to hear an LP12 which has had its stock pressed-steel subchassis replaced with a Cetech or a Keel, before you knock a Linn again.

You're in Melbourne - you could always bring your favourite LP round to my place and hear how wonderful an LP12 can sound!

Regards,

Andy

[Ken]

The "Garbage In - Garbage Out" GI-GO slogan was ‘borrowed” from the early computer industry, but was not used by Linn until almost 3 years after the launch of the LP12.

By then the LP12 was already a UK best seller.

Anybody that needed to tweak the set up of an LP12 every time it was used is either a tweak for tweak sake fanatic, or, has not set up the thing correctly in the first place.

Set up is really very basic engineering knowledge (getting things level) not the rocket science that Ivor's people expounded.

I have owned many LP12's once set up I have never had to tweak more than once every six months for the earlier pre Nirvana versions, and, no more than once a year for the post Nirvana versions.

The main difference between the early Ariston and the Linn LP12 was the quality of the engineering, Ivor might have been a lot of things, but he was a dam good Engineer, one of the very best, he was also one of the very first to understand the Quality Assurance / Quality Control systems, and, he implemented them rigidly. That is why so many LP12’s are currently still in use, many have never been upgraded and still performing fantastically.

Ken

[A9X]

The "Garbage In - Garbage Out" GI-GO slogan was ‘borrowed†from the early computer industry, but was not used by Linn until almost 3 years after the launch of the LP12.

By then the LP12 was already a UK best seller.

Really? I thought it was used right from the start.

Anybody that needed to tweak the set up of an LP12 every time it was used is either a tweak for tweak sake fanatic, or, has not set up the thing correctly in the first place.

Set up is really very basic engineering knowledge (getting things level) not the rocket science that Ivor's people expounded.

I have owned many LP12's once set up I have never had to tweak more than once every six months for the earlier pre Nirvana versions, and, no more than once a year for the post Nirvana versions.

Once you know what to do and how, I agree it's not hard, and the Linn people did make it seem like voodoo for a long time. Before teh internetz setup info was hard to come by. I did not mean to imply that it was a daily job, but more than once I had mine set up at a dealer and it went out in a relatively short period of time. My Gyro never required any adjustments once set.

The main difference between the early Ariston and the Linn LP12 was the quality of the engineering, Ivor might have been a lot of things, but he was a dam good Engineer, one of the very best, he was also one of the very first to understand the Quality Assurance / Quality Control systems, and, he implemented them rigidly. That is why so many LP12’s are currently still in use, many have never been upgraded and still performing fantastically.

Ken

Here I'm 100% in agreement. All the Linn kit I have owned has been very well made and I have no doubt IT is an excellent engineer.

[davidsss]

From what I can work out the Linn's are very good TTs and they have a signature sound which is popular. I would go for a big Micro Seiki before a Linn, but I would say that .

DS

Can I suggest you need to hear an LP12 which has had its stock pressed-steel subchassis replaced with a Cetech or a Keel, before you knock a Linn again.

You're in Melbourne - you could always bring your favourite LP round to my place and hear how wonderful an LP12 can sound!

Regards,

Andy

Wow, I could comment on the fragile egos of Linn owners here, but I will resist the temptation . Just exactly how does saying "Linn's are very good TTs" consitute knocking a Linn? Do I have to say they are the best TT ever built before I'm deemed to have made an acceptable assessment?

Any product which has lasted that long has to have something going for it (which might explain why I said it was very good). I would add that I've never owned a suspended turntable, partly because I like the ease of set up of non-suspended turntables. I do think Linn's are overpriced though, new they are $AU4,700 plus $AU2,640 for the Lingo power supply which is not included plus whatever arm you choose to put on it. The Keel armbase you suggest is an extra $AU5,500. That's well over $AU10,000 before you include an arm. I could get a very good Kuzma, for example, and no doubt many other quality TTs for that money.

So, again I do not think I'm knocking the Linns but, at the price, I reckon you can do better.

DS

[Willco]

The Keel armbase you suggest is an extra $AU5,500.

DS

Ha! Yes Gulp!-- but with a bit of outback nous we made our own $700 AUD.

Willco

http://imgs.inkfrog.com/pix/team201/Keel.jpg

[NellyJamba]

It might be a good turntable. I will find out when I finally get to hear one.

The philosophy of upgrading might appeal to many people but the more I think about it, the more worried I am. If I buy a Lexus, I expect it to be a Lexus. Come summer, I don't want the salesman to tell me "Look, you have got to pay $3000 to get an air-con". Or being told "air bags come at an extra of $5000" after I lost a leg. I am ok if it is a Hyundai but when you start charging premium prices, perhaps these features should be there in the first place?

The modular approach seems pretty strange coming from a European company. Looks like they have out-Japan the Japanese. I could be stereotyping.

Sorry if I couldn't put it as objective as Tony and some other guys out here.

[andyr]

Wow, I could comment on the fragile egos of Linn owners here, but I will resist the temptation :o . Just exactly how does saying "Linn's are very good TTs" consitute knocking a Linn? Do I have to say they are the best TT ever built before I'm deemed to have made an acceptable assessment?

Any product which has lasted that long has to have something going for it (which might explain why I said it was very good). I would add that I've never owned a suspended turntable, partly because I like the ease of set up of non-suspended turntables. I do think Linn's are overpriced though, new they are $AU4,700 plus $AU2,640 for the Lingo power supply which is not included plus whatever arm you choose to put on it. The Keel armbase you suggest is an extra $AU5,500. That's well over $AU10,000 before you include an arm. I could get a very good Kuzma, for example, and no doubt many other quality TTs for that money.

So, again I do not think I'm knocking the Linns but, at the price, I reckon you can do better.

DS

No fragile ego here, mate - simply that you posted the following statement: "I would go for a big Micro Seiki before a Linn" and I felt that, while a Micro Seiki - and some of the other TTs mentioned - might well beat a stock, pressed-steel subchassis'd LP12, you need to be careful saying that without having heard a Keeled or Ceteched LP12. IMO the improvement I got in 2006 from being able to solidly attach the armboard to the subchassis (with a Cetech) was staggering ... and Linn must agree because they then came out with the Keel!

Yes, I can see that, for a new retail buyer a Keeled LP12 may well be an expensive proposition - and other TTs might give you the same bang for less bucks! However, a Ceteched LP12 will cost about A$4,500 less than one with a Keel - so that straightaway puts it into a different price bracket.

And for those of us who've had our LP12 for many years, it's cheaper to upgrade it with the latest tweak that Linn (or others) come out with than scrap it and buy a different deck. So I can see that my LP12 will be around until I drop off my perch ... although it may well get a Lingo 2 upgrade at some stage - or the new DC motor & controller which Linn have just released.

Regards,

Andy

[Zaphod Beeblebrox]

This TT has been around for 30 years and had gone through numerous upgrades over these years. Now and then, some older models will appear on ebay and still command a hefy price (for the kind of condition they are in). Exactly, what is so good about this turntable?

It is old and yet it is not exactly a collectible since there are so many around and the company is still operating. This is unlike Micro Seiki or Garrard which are no longer in production. Next, sorry guys, it is not at all good looking. Not even when I take into consideration that it is a vintage TT.

A turntable guru on this forum told me that they are still a favourite among the money-no-object audiophiles and that made me scratch my head even further.

Sort of like a friend of mine who was a well to do professional, highly talented musician, had killer looks, came from a rich family, envy of the class, but would rather date an ugly looking bird. Ok, I exaggerated.

So exactly where and what is the appeal of a Linn Sondek LP12? :o

A9X has hit the nail pretty much on the head. It was marketing. Pure and simple. Linn took a reasonably well designed turntable (the Ariston) and plonked their name on a direct copy. To their credit, Linn improved on the basic design a few times. It ended being a reasonable, if not massively over-priced turntable. Compared to stuff like the Sota, though, it is a ***** to set up properly.

Whilst it is a reasonable performer, it certainly does not deserve the reputation it has gained.

For a whole lot less money, the AR turntable will provide almost identical performance.