Jump to content

Ethernet System for Audio: putting it all together


Recommended Posts



  • 2 months later...
  • 4 weeks later...

My understanding is that CAT 7 cables and above have a shield that is connected at both ends.  The question is whether to have the shield discounted at one end. 

 

I consider that various Ethernet cables can provide a benefit to the listening outcome.  My Telstra router modem is approx. 15mts for my system.  Until recently I had connected the router to my system downstairs with a low level Cat 5 cable.  I decided to go CAT7 with a cable from Avanti Audio in the US.  The interesting thing is that the shield in the cable on the receiving end is disconnected.  I thought that the cable provided a benefit but I did not get excited.

 

However, it made me interested in the whether there is benefit in having the shield disconnected in cables.  I had it done to one of my exiteing cables.  Once again, I was not overly excited.  I use that cable to connect the last network switch to the Waversa Filter in my setup.  It meant that there was still a cable with the shield connected from the Filter to the ROON ready WEISS 502.

 

Yesterday I had the shield in the cable from the Filter to the 502 disconnected.  When I started listening, I was not taking much notice as I was doing something else.  Then after a while I realised that was a definite noticeable change in listening benefit.  It had to be the cable.  The overall SQ was more fluid and smoother.  Lovely.  As well the emphasis on the attack of the notes was more obvious.  Maybe less noise floor.  I enjoying the outcome.

 

I now intend to have the shield in all my other 10 approx. cables disconnected at what for me is the receiving end.  I am unable to do the shield disconnection myself.  A bit tricky to remove the Telegartner plugs without doing damage.   Plus, which wire goes where is beyond me.

 

Avanti Audio

https://avantiaudio.com/products/vivace-ethernet-cables?variant=39420792438975

Worth a read

John

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 07/08/2022 at 7:38 PM, Assisi said:

 I am unable to do the shield disconnection myself.  A bit tricky to remove the Telegartner plugs without doing damage.   Plus, which wire goes where is beyond me.

At the end of this video shows how the shield simply contacts the headshell when it is all put together. 

 

It is probably simply a matter of opening it up and cutting off the shield wires, and possibly putting some tape on to stop any stray shield wires contacting the headshell, and then close it again.

 

Based on my experience I would not assume that all devices benefit in the same from shield being disconnected, or UTP cables.  It involves some trial and error to find what works best in each link.

Edited by dbastin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

8 hours ago, dbastin said:

At the end of this video shows how the shield simply contacts the headshell when it is all put together.  It is probably simply a matter of opening it up and cutting off the shield wires, and possibly putting some tape on to stop any stray shield wires contacting the headshell, and then close it again.

 

Based on my experience I would not assume that all devices benefit in the same from shield being disconnected, or UTP cables.  It involves some trial and error to find what works best in each link.

As to whether there is a benefit with the shield connected at only one end may or may not vary depending on the links.  In my case, with the two cables that had the shield disconnected, there is a significant beneficial outcome.  So much so I intend to have all the other cables that I have done ASAP.  Hopefully tomorrow.

 

I have watched the disconnection done so I understand the simple procedure.  In terms of doing the disconnection it is not something that I will do myself though.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites



8 hours ago, Assisi said:

As to whether there is a benefit with the shield connected at only one end may or may not vary depending on the links.  In my case, with the two cables that had the shield disconnected, there is a significant beneficial outcome.  So much so I intend to have all the other cables that I have done ASAP.  Hopefully tomorrow.

 

I have watched the disconnection done so I understand the simple procedure.  In terms of doing the disconnection it is not something that I will do myself though.

 

John

What cable  was this ...  "Yesterday I had the shield in the cable from the Filter to the 502 disconnected"? 

 

To confirm what you said about the Avanti their website states:

Directional by Design

Our CAT7 Ethernet cables are directional in design with regards to how the overall braided shield is terminated on each end of the cable and connectors.  The concept is to attach the overall braided shield within the cable to the shell of the RJ-45 Connector on the source / sending end of the cable assembly only. We then float (detach) the shield on the receiving / destination end of the cable and connector shell.  This design creates an "upstream" drain point for RFI/EMI noise & interference.  By terminating the shield to the metal connector body on the sending end only the shield acts as a barrier to EMI/RFI and as a drain to shed noise and leave it at the router ground point.

Edited by dbastin
Link to comment
Share on other sites

1 hour ago, dbastin said:

What cable  was this ...  "Yesterday I had the shield in the cable from the Filter to the 502 disconnected"? 

 

To confirm what you said about the Avanti their website states:

Directional by Design

Our CAT7 Ethernet cables are directional in design with regards to how the overall braided shield is terminated on each end of the cable and connectors.  The concept is to attach the overall braided shield within the cable to the shell of the RJ-45 Connector on the source / sending end of the cable assembly only. We then float (detach) the shield on the receiving / destination end of the cable and connector shell.  This design creates an "upstream" drain point for RFI/EMI noise & interference.  By terminating the shield to the metal connector body on the sending end only the shield acts as a barrier to EMI/RFI and as a drain to shed noise and leave it at the router ground point.

The 502 is the receiving end.  The shield at that end of the cable that comes from the Filter is disconnected.  The shield at the end of the cable at the Filter end is still connected.  The 502 is the end of the Ethernet.  The 502 to the DAC is XLR

 

 

John 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

32 minutes ago, Assisi said:

The 502 is the receiving end.  The shield at that end of the cable that comes from the Filter is disconnected.  The shield at the end of the cable at the Filter end is still connected.  The 502 is the end of the Ethernet.  The 502 to the DAC is XLR

 

 

John 

Sorry, I was not clear,  What make and model of cable is from your filter to 502?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

47 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Sorry, I was not clear,  What make and model of cable is from your filter to 502?

Except for the Avanti cable which is 15mts and goes from the upstairs router to the system downstairs, all my cables are Acoustic Revive with Telegartner plugs.  The Cables are assembled by John at Sound Gallery in Melbourne.

https://soundgallery.com.au/

I am visiting him tomorrow to have the shield on one end disconnected on all my cables not already done.  The outcome will be interesting.

I only mentioned the Avanti as it was where I got the idea to disconnect the Shield. 

11 hours ago, Cardiiiii said:

@Assisi so these Avanti cables are worth a punt?

I could not afford the Acoustic Revive above over the distance required

and it was a cost effective way for me to get a CAT7 rated for audio purposes. 

I never took much notice

of the outcome when I installed it awhile ago.  It is probable the it was better than I realised.  On a price performance basis they are probably a bargain.

John

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites



On 08/08/2022 at 9:40 PM, Assisi said:

Except for the Avanti cable which is 15mts and goes from the upstairs router to the system downstairs, all my cables are Acoustic Revive with Telegartner plugs.  The Cables are assembled by John at Sound Gallery in Melbourne.

 

https://soundgallery.com.au/

 

I am visiting him tomorrow to have the shield on one end disconnected on all my cables not already done.  The outcome will be interesting.

I only mentioned the Avanti as it was where I got the idea to disconnect the Shield. 

I did take the 8 cables yesterday that I had with the shields still connected to have the shields disconnected at just one end each.  That end becomes the receiving end for each cable.  Put them back yesterday and initially there was a ROON play problem.  Nothing worked.  Bugger.  Access to the all the switches in my situation is not easy.  Worked out what I had not done right.  Tried again. Immediate palpable Nirvana!!!

 

 

The sound was something I have never experienced before at least in my situation.  The dynamics are incredible and with no noise floor, the air and space in the sound stage is just wonderful and inviting.  A guitar is real and present.  Until now I have never really understood and appreciated the aspect of dynamics. 

 

 

It is said by some including the master (who suggested that it not be done) that disconnecting the shield may not work in all situations with all cables.  In this case it does work and is a definite benefit.  The decision to do the disconnection is one of the best if not the best audio decisions I have made.  I have made a few decisions over the last dozen years based on intuition.  This is one.  I now can hear the full potential of my speakers.  Excitement plus.

 

 

I have never thought that there is an end to my audio journey.  However, I now know that it will be very difficult to better where I am now.

 

John

Edited by Assisi
  • Like 2
Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, Assisi said:

 

I have never thought that there is an end to my audio journey.  However, I now know that it will be very difficult to better where I am now.

 

John

Sure you'll find a way with another crackpot scheme , John! 😉

Now who else is gonna try it ?? 🤔

  • Haha 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

5 hours ago, Assisi said:

It is said by some including the master (who suggested that it not be done) that disconnecting the shield may not work in all situations with all cables.  In this case it does work and is a definite benefit. 

Who is the master?

 

Surely you are not referring to my previous post responding to you, I do not consider myself a master - at best a mentor and usually just making suggestions, pointing people to knowledge and sharing experience (sometimes of a crackpot scheme).   I listen to people who are apparently more masterful than me in network things, and try them myself.  The network gurus (and i mean that in a positive way) have been saying over and again the shields are a problem.

 

I did not suggest that it not be done, I suggested it might not be the best solution for every link.  You have done them all, which is a safe bet, but you wont know if it did not suit some links.

 

For example, I have one link where Cat 6a UTP performs better (by that I mean sounds most accurate) than an audiophile Cat 7 with Telegartner connectors and shield disconnected at one end, and a $800 cable with shield connected at both ends.

 

Now you have reviewed your cable shielding, it might be worth (as you have previously suggested to me) taking the network apart and rebuilding it one thing at a time.  You might find some things are not worth having any more because your noise pollution has now been reduced a lot.  Or at least the combinations or sequences may be better in a way that is different to now.  That would really fit with the topic of this thread "putting it all together".

 

Is that enough of a crackpot scheme @evil c?  I don't mean to sound like a smart arse, but I have been there and done that (as suggested by John), and reduced my network to 3 cables, 1 fibre and 1 wifi link, one audiophile switch and 1 router.  The cables at UTP, audiophile S/FTP Cat 6a disconnected shield at receiving end (by design), and audiophile Cat 7 shield connected at both ends (probably because the receiving end it literally floating by being power by battery).  It is the best I have had by far.

Link to comment
Share on other sites



24 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Who is the master?

 

Surely you are not referring to my previous post responding to you, I do not consider myself a master - at best a mentor and usually just making suggestions, pointing people to knowledge and sharing experience (sometimes of a crackpot scheme).   I listen to people who are apparently more masterful than me in network things, and try them myself.  The network gurus (and i mean that in a positive way) have been saying over and again the shields are a problem.

 

I did not suggest that it not be done, I suggested it might not be the best solution for every link.  You have done them all, which is a safe bet, but you wont know if it did not suit some links.

 

For example, I have one link where Cat 6a UTP performs better (by that I mean sounds most accurate) than an audiophile Cat 7 with Telegartner connectors and shield disconnected at one end, and a $800 cable with shield connected at both ends.

 

Now you have reviewed your cable shielding, it might be worth (as you have previously suggested to me) taking the network apart and rebuilding it one thing at a time.  You might find some things are not worth having any more because your noise pollution has now been reduced a lot.  Or at least the combinations or sequences may be better in a way that is different to now.  That would really fit with the topic of this thread "putting it all together".

 

Is that enough of a crackpot scheme @evil c?  I don't mean to sound like a smart arse, but I have been there and done that (as suggested by John), and reduced my network to 3 cables, 1 fibre and 1 wifi link, one audiophile switch and 1 router.  The cables at UTP, audiophile S/FTP Cat 6a disconnected shield at receiving end (by design), and audiophile Cat 7 shield connected at both ends (probably because the receiving end it literally floating by being power by battery).  It is the best I have had by far.

John and I are on friendly terms and understand each other very well!,

I have been following this with great interest,  and keep an open mind on practically all aspects of this weird and wonderful hobby of ours. 😉

Appreciate your insight and proviso, on applications of shielding .

I myself have a single Renolabs switch, and 3 same Acoustic Revive cables as John has - linked to my K50.

I might have to consider doing it myself or beg @Assisi for a loan/demo of his "unshielded" version. 😊

Link to comment
Share on other sites

2 hours ago, dbastin said:

I have and have already given my opinions on this forum about this product. As with all, try it in your system and see what you think. As it has an OCXO it will need to be in the system for a few days to work its (potential) magic. An overnight demo will tell you nothing.

 

I still use the Waversa switch (Hub 2.0) - what a marvellous piece of kit.

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 hours ago, dbastin said:

Who is the master?

 

Surely you are not referring to my previous post responding to you, I do not consider myself a master - at best a mentor and usually just making suggestions, pointing people to knowledge and sharing experience (sometimes of a crackpot scheme).   I listen to people who are apparently more masterful than me in network things, and try them myself.  The network gurus (and i mean that in a positive way) have been saying over and again the shields are a problem.

 

I did not suggest that it not be done, I suggested it might not be the best solution for every link.  You have done them all, which is a safe bet, but you wont know if it did not suit some links.

 

 

My audio journey is guided to a reasonable extent by the person I call my system curator.  In the post I called him the master.  He is John Ong from Sound Gallery in McKinnon in Melbourne.  He has considerable experience and knowledge in things audio and he is very generous with his sharing.  I spoke to him many weeks ago about disconnecting the shield in the cables he made for me.  He wasn’t sure that it was a good thing to do.  Nevertheless, I persevered.  I am very pleased with the outcome.  He still does say that disconnection may not be advisable in all setups.

 

 

I cannot remember precisely why I suggested that you take your network apart and start again.  I expect that it was possibly because you had expressed a concern with how your situation was at the time.  I have on occasions contemplated starting again bit by bit.  I definitely though have no enthusiasm at this time doing it as I am extremely pleased as to results with that I currently have.  There are too any possible permutations to make it a worthwhile exercise.

 

 

My experience is that each switch has its own sound signature.  With more than one switch, there can be combination of each signature to provide an overall all benefit.  An very important question is there any benefit that may come from the sequence of switches.  Which is first Vs which is last in the sequence.  I do not have any answers to that question.  My limited experience with optical so far has not been beneficial.

 

 

I recently took three of my switches plus two power supplies to @Dacman's   to compare.  There were three of us present.  Besides my three switches Stavros had an Etheregen to try.  Each of us could hear various and definite differences and benefits.  As expected, there was no overall consensus of which was better either singularly or in combination.  We each had our preferences.  So many changes in a few hours is not the best indicator of what is "good, better or best".

 

John

Edited by Assisi
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/08/2022 at 11:31 PM, Hydrology said:

I have and have already given my opinions on this forum about this product. As with all, try it in your system and see what you think. As it has an OCXO it will need to be in the system for a few days to work its (potential) magic. An overnight demo will tell you nothing.

 

I still use the Waversa switch (Hub 2.0) - what a marvellous piece of kit.

 

This guy? https://waversasystems.com/wsmarthub

Looks impressive. This looks like a great product isolating/filtering both network and USB.... Seems better value than purchasing an Eno & InnuOS Phoenix? 

Edited by Grizaudio
Link to comment
Share on other sites



So recently I managed to acquire my dream speakers, to say I'm happy is an understatement.

All cuffed, I am now considering a few more tweaks to my signal path as finishing touches. 

 

My setup is a little different to the Hifi norm, and is heavily influenced by pro sound/monitoring.

 

Signal path is:

Roon Rock > Pi4 USB (Gieseler KW2 LPS) > Motu MK5 Ultralite multichannel DAC > NAD c298 Purifi amplifiers > JBL M2's.  

The system relies on Roon serving up JBL convolution filters for each activated driver. 

The system relies multi channel routing, and therefore a PC/Pi is mandatory. 

 

With most audiophile servers only happy serving up stereo, I am looking for 'bolt on's' to add noise isolation and USB re-clocking. 

Two devices are looking promising include the InnuOS Phoenix, and Eno AG network isolator. 

The wsmarthub looks great also. 

 

Firstly, I have done a little research and there seems to be a few users in this thread using the Eno AG. 

https://www.networkacoustics.com/eno/

Some users report dramatic benefits, others little increment's of improvement (Subject to the quality of the device its connecting).  

I was wondering if any users of this product have compared it to cheaper isolators like: 

https://www.hamradio.co.uk/dx-engineering-iso-plus-ethernet-rf-filters-dxe-iso-plus-2-pd-10944

The Eno isn't cheap, but nothing is in this game. However I was wondering if a cheaper isolation device, could potentially provide 90% of its benefit. 

 

Secondly, I was wondering if a galvanic isolator on the USB side (Pi/PC to DAC) like the Topping HS01 or similar, could potentially mean a device like the InnuOS Phoenix would be less meaningful or effective. 

 

I understand these things are best tried in one's system, however I was wondering if any users had first hand advice from trial or error comparing devices that might be valuable here. 

Edited by Grizaudio
Link to comment
Share on other sites

26 minutes ago, Grizaudio said:

I understand these things are best tried in one's system, however I was wondering if any users had first hand advice from trial or error comparing devices that might be valuable here. 

I do have an ENO that I am no longer using as I also use a Waversa Reference filter.  Whilst the ENO can be considered expensive, in relative term the Waversa is considerably much more expensive.  The Waversa in my system provides a significant benefit.  Some of the outcome is to an extent is also dependent on the overall level of a system.   The Like many things in audio especially Ethernet, comparisons in ones own system are desirable.  I say this even though I bought the ENO based on reviews.  When you get things right with Ethernet there can be a wow SQ outcome. I cannot comment on any other question in your post.

 

John

  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

On 10/08/2022 at 10:23 PM, evil c said:

John and I are on friendly terms and understand each other very well!,

I have been following this with great interest,  and keep an open mind on practically all aspects of this weird and wonderful hobby of ours. 😉

Appreciate your insight and proviso, on applications of shielding .

I myself have a single Renolabs switch, and 3 same Acoustic Revive cables as John has - linked to my K50.

I might have to consider doing it myself or beg @Assisi for a loan/demo of his "unshielded" version. 😊

Hi Clive,

I think I have just found my next step.  I will report back when I receive the cable.

John

Link to comment
Share on other sites

15 minutes ago, Assisi said:

Hi Clive,

I think I have just found my next step.  I will report back when I receive the cable.

John

No worries John!,😉

Edit Now look what you've done!!, 😂 

Link to comment
Share on other sites



  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.




×
×
  • Create New...
To Top