davewantsmoore Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 4 hours ago, El Tel said: Let's just cut to the chase and be honest about enjoying the distortions they display from upstream kit. If you quantify what the actual difference is..... then you will know if, it is distortion.... or improvement... or nothing. Claiming it is distortion seems unwise without actually observing that.
Volunteer El Tel Posted March 8, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 8, 2022 1 minute ago, davewantsmoore said: If you quantify what the actual difference is..... then you will know if, it is distortion.... or improvement... or nothing. Claiming it is distortion seems unwise without actually observing that. It's distortion in the same way that valves work. The moment I could show that a shielded cable enabled noise to traverse a link where a UTP cable did not, then it's the only outcome. Distortion isn't necessarily a bad thing - it's seen as a positive by some: Distortion is a change to anything from its normal, true state - which is observable in the chain in question. DSP is technically a distortion from the original transmitted signal.
davewantsmoore Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 7 hours ago, Assisi said: to which there is no absolute correct position It depends on precisely what question you are trying to answer. If you only want to know "what do you like" .... then ultimately anything goes. If I give you a blinded wine test and you like wine #3 the best ... and then I tell you they were all the same wine .... but you really liked #3 the most, and enjoyed doing the test, and actually mixing wine #7 and wine #3 together was the best tasting...... then nobody is to say you're wrong.
davewantsmoore Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 1 minute ago, El Tel said: It's distortion in the same way that valves work. You don't even know if there is any distortion..... let alone distortion that is like this. 1 minute ago, El Tel said: then it's the only outcome No... it isn't. There could be zero (literally) change to the audio There could be distortion The audio could improve 'cos the better shielding was keeping something out. Any of those are in theory possible.
Assisi Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 As to whether or what happens with audio switches and cables in a home network, I cannot contribute any specific information to this thread as to the reasons why someone may experience or not experience a benefit. In my situation there is no doubt whatsoever for me and my setup and listening experience there is a benefit with the various switches and cables that I have. @Dacman visited me today to have a listen and reflect on life. He brought with him a Curious Ethernet cable that he had just received to try in my system. The cable was brand new never used. I have many cables in my system. I did not expect a single cable to be a benefit. The question was were to connect it. I decided the last leg after the Waversa Filter into the Waversa DSP502. All it took was a few seconds of listening for both of us to hear the benefit. I said one word “bugger”. It was a serious step up primarily in the bottom end frequencies. Amazing and no settling in as well. I have tried other high-level cables. None of them have done what this single cable did. Posters can provide various explanations as to why or why not cables and switches have SQ impact. All I know is that for me they do. John 4
Stereophilus Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 5 hours ago, Addicted to music said: A possible solution looking for a an issue to solve? Sure. But I'm just running with the theme of trying to align reported SQ changes with some theory that can be tested. It's not about "what is best" in this instance, rather it is about "why do some people hear a difference". And no, I do not accept that "it's all in their head" as the default. 6 hours ago, Addicted to music said: Cat6a is shielded and it is also tested in the link I provided. Yes. I did see that. However, there was a lot of unshielded cable between the rest of his network and his test link. This may have impacted on the specific scenario I'm interested in.
Stereophilus Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 9 hours ago, El Tel said: This bit here is the crux of it. I know you're wanting to investigate the downstream effects in the DAC more and to isolate what parts are being affected. That's a laudable aim in the pursuit of the full picture. But to avoid the conveyed noise in the first place and then shuffle your DAC processing/settings around to get a controlled outcome is the ideal. Everything else is, well, it's just noise. You should totally continue to investigate your hypothesis - it's a better place to start than most of the whacko stuff I've seen others come out with. I get where you are coming from. However I do want to know if what is reported as sounding different could have a measurable aspect when it comes to network streamed audio. Also the information I read regarding dither (that is the intentional addition of low level noise, shaped or otherwise) is that it improves perceived sound quality. So the adage of excluding low level noise completely may actually (bizarrely) not be best... however this is obviously purely speculative.
Niktech Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 1 hour ago, Assisi said: As to whether or what happens with audio switches and cables in a home network, I cannot contribute any specific information to this thread as to the reasons why someone may experience or not experience a benefit. In my situation there is no doubt whatsoever for me and my setup and listening experience there is a benefit with the various switches and cables that I have. @Dacman visited me today to have a listen and reflect on life. He brought with him a Curious Ethernet cable that he had just received to try in my system. The cable was brand new never used. I have many cables in my system. I did not expect a single cable to be a benefit. The question was were to connect it. I decided the last leg after the Waversa Filter into the Waversa DSP502. All it took was a few seconds of listening for both of us to hear the benefit. I said one word “bugger”. It was a serious step up primarily in the bottom end frequencies. Amazing and no settling in as well. I have tried other high-level cables. None of them have done what this single cable did. Posters can provide various explanations as to why or why not cables and switches have SQ impact. All I know is that for me they do. John Snap, John! I ordered one from Lenehan Audio yesterday
davewantsmoore Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 2 hours ago, El Tel said: I'm out. The point is that it can be fairly easilyt quantified either way. It's an improvement No, it's distortion (and it can only be distortion) Maybe, it's distortion and it's an improvement Crazy. I'm not suggesting anyone where (including me) should or could, accurately quantify it ..... and for sure, most people wouldn't care to anyway (no real interest) .... but the point is that manufacturers and reviewers can do this.... and it's "interesting" (to me at least, but I think it should be to all) that they don't.
davewantsmoore Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 54 minutes ago, Stereophilus said: Sure. But I'm just running with the theme of trying to align reported SQ changes with some theory that can be tested. By quantifying what the actual difference in the audio signal IS..... will give very large clues as to what the cause could be. Also, by quantifying it, you can then change various things to look at how it changes (if at all), to uncover the cause of the effect. ... but without knowing what it is (what is the difference), it's very very hard to say much.
dbastin Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Assisi said: As to whether or what happens with audio switches and cables in a home network, I cannot contribute any specific information to this thread as to the reasons why someone may experience or not experience a benefit. In my situation there is no doubt whatsoever for me and my setup and listening experience there is a benefit with the various switches and cables that I have. @Dacman visited me today to have a listen and reflect on life. He brought with him a Curious Ethernet cable that he had just received to try in my system. The cable was brand new never used. I have many cables in my system. I did not expect a single cable to be a benefit. The question was were to connect it. I decided the last leg after the Waversa Filter into the Waversa DSP502. All it took was a few seconds of listening for both of us to hear the benefit. I said one word “bugger”. It was a serious step up primarily in the bottom end frequencies. Amazing and no settling in as well. I have tried other high-level cables. None of them have done what this single cable did. Posters can provide various explanations as to why or why not cables and switches have SQ impact. All I know is that for me they do. John Great news. When I spoke to Mike a few months ago, amongst his enthusiasm to promote the Curious USB I queried if he'd considered doing an ethernet cable ... I got the impression it had not crossed his mind at that time. I imagine it will distrupt the market. https://curiouscables.com/shop/ols/products/curious-ethernet-cable-10m
Assisi Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) 15 hours ago, Niktech said: Snap, John! I ordered one from Lenehan Audio yesterday You will be pleased with the outcome. 14 hours ago, dbastin said: I imagine it will distrupt the market And maybe further confuse or confound some posters in this and other threads. I neglected to mention that the cable comprises four separate cables or legs that come together at the plugs at each end. Three of the cables are yellow and black covered and the fourth is black silver and yellow which probably indicates what is in what cable. More importantly I assume that the separation is probably in part responsible for the impressive SQ listening result. There are other Ethernet cables with four individual legs that I understand also have a special out comes. Posters can theorise to the nth degree as much as they like as to why Ethernet cables do not provide a benefit. This one cable in my system this afternoon was for me conclusive proof that the right ones do provide a listening benefit. The listening experience with my system is serious. Nevertheless, I am now missing what I heard this afternoon. I also should mention that along with Lenehan audio https://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/curiouscables.html, @Dacman is selling the cables. John Edited March 8, 2022 by Assisi words 2
bob_m_54 Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 4 hours ago, El Tel said: I'm out. I'm surprised you lasted this long LOL 2
Addicted to music Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 2 hours ago, Stereophilus said: Sure. But I'm just running with the theme of trying to align reported SQ changes with some theory that can be tested. It's not about "what is best" in this instance, rather it is about "why do some people hear a difference". And no, I do not accept that "it's all in their head" as the default. Hearing is so subjective, lots of bias, just because someone saids there’s a change may not happen in your system or in your network, or in fact you’re able to detect it. I now don’t read or take other peoples impressions on threads here on this forum and others with out technical proof . Lots of these theories about noise and ground from this community is just that, noise! As I have proven multiple times. Unless you are shown evidence and provided with “measurements “. What improvements they say they hear should be taken as speculation and nothing else unless proof is shown. I read an article the a few days ago about a blind test was done in 2015/and the participant were told to rank what they heard, most said that they agree that vinyl was better in all respect before they participated, when they did the blind test it was interesting that the materials they played the majority selected CD or a digital file as being “better sounding”. And this is coming from a majority of participants say vinyl is best! The other reason why I don’t bother with ethernet cables is that there is one 30cm cat4 cable that goes from the FTTC to Netgear Orbi. The rest is WIFI. And when my daughter streams 1080 from the iPhone 7 to the Samsung TV, it’s seamless for hours on end even if I was downloading a file at high speeds. I was at another SNAer and he was running wireless to a dac, Gryphon electronics to a set of reference Dynaudio….. Bugger if I could pic the difference between the wifi and then a file connected to a laptop running ethernet to the dac. In fact that SNAer is an IT specialist and he doesn’t post here any more…. His exact works were better to update components and speakers, better bang for buck! 1
Stereophilus Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 28 minutes ago, Addicted to music said: Hearing is so subjective, lots of bias, just because someone saids there’s a change may not happen in your system or in your network, or in fact you’re able to detect it. I now don’t read or take other peoples impressions on threads here on this forum and others with out technical proof . Lots of these theories about noise and ground from this community is just that, noise! As I have proven multiple times. Unless you are shown evidence and provided with “measurements “. What improvements they say they hear should be taken as speculation and nothing else unless proof is shown. I read an article the a few days ago about a blind test was done in 2015/and the participant were told to rank what they heard, most said that they agree that vinyl was better in all respect before they participated, when they did the blind test it was interesting that the materials they played the majority selected CD or a digital file as being “better sounding”. And this is coming from a majority of participants say vinyl is best! The other reason why I don’t bother with ethernet cables is that there is one 30cm cat4 cable that goes from the FTTC to Netgear Orbi. The rest is WIFI. And when my daughter streams 1080 from the iPhone 7 to the Samsung TV, it’s seamless for hours on end even if I was downloading a file at high speeds. I was at another SNAer and he was running wireless to a dac, Gryphon electronics to a set of reference Dynaudio….. Bugger if I could pic the difference between the wifi and then a file connected to a laptop running ethernet to the dac. In fact that SNAer is an IT specialist and he doesn’t post here any more…. His exact works were better to update components and speakers, better bang for buck! I certainly have no problem with your decision to disregard subjective reporting of differences in sound quality. I myself treat this hobby with a fair degree of scepticism, but perhaps not as much as some. Regardless, I am not proposing to convince you to abandon your approach. If it serves you well, go for it! My intent, stated as speculative, was to gauge the merit of further investigation for the phenomenon purportedly perceived by a section of our community. I am an open minded and (I like think) intelligent enough person to try to find links between cause and effect. It is of interest to me to further my own knowledge in doing so, but also to share knowledge within this forum. If anything I’m hoping to find something that potentially proves that a $2 patch cable is the best choice so we can all save our money and our time. I’m just approaching the problem from a different angle… ie trying to prove that the shielded ethernet cables are conduits for noise that “colours” the output of the DAC. Again, I have no problem if you have all the proof you need for your own decisions - more power to you. I do not, and I have questions that remain unanswered in my mind.
Stereophilus Posted March 8, 2022 Posted March 8, 2022 (edited) For clarity on why I cite noise (acting as dither) as potentially being a good thing (or at least a thing that can cause an audible difference in the output of a DAC), I found this on ASR: Edited March 8, 2022 by Stereophilus
Volunteer El Tel Posted March 9, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 9, 2022 Well this is bloody annoying... I got my box of patch leads sent down from my Singapore office. There might be a small problem. Anyone spot it? Of absolutely no use for audio. I can fix-up my back-haul and other compute nodes, but these will be a no go for patching to a streamer. Annoying.
dbastin Posted March 10, 2022 Posted March 10, 2022 3 hours ago, BugPowderDust said: Shielded! Yes, and to be more precise for the innocent bystanders ... S / FTP = Shielded / Foiled Twisted Pair I gather each pair is foiled, meaning wrapped in foil, whereas the shield is over all 4 pairs. 4 hours ago, El Tel said: Of absolutely no use for audio. ... these will be a no go for patching to a streamer. You could cut off the plug of one end and re-terminate with new plug and not connect the shield to ground. I suppose that would be OK?
Volunteer El Tel Posted March 10, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 10, 2022 I won't be butchering these. They are the finest factory patch leads I've ever used even if their use to me is limited. Fact is the R&M factory terminations are better than I can do myself; if I cut-and-shut these, it's nigh-on a war-crime. I'll just use them on the back-end and find the better Panduits in my inventory (I think I may still have one U/UTP factory R&M patch between some kit in the study too). I now have an excuse to at least chuck the crappier leads that come free with Foxtel/PS4/Sonos and every box of cornflakes. It's largely symbolic and cosmetic, but I'm ok with that.
GC Hifi Posted March 10, 2022 Posted March 10, 2022 (edited) On 08/03/2022 at 7:48 PM, Assisi said: You will be pleased with the outcome. And maybe further confuse or confound some posters in this and other threads. I neglected to mention that the cable comprises four separate cables or legs that come together at the plugs at each end. Three of the cables are yellow and black covered and the fourth is black silver and yellow which probably indicates what is in what cable. More importantly I assume that the separation is probably in part responsible for the impressive SQ listening result. There are other Ethernet cables with four individual legs that I understand also have a special out comes. Posters can theorise to the nth degree as much as they like as to why Ethernet cables do not provide a benefit. This one cable in my system this afternoon was for me conclusive proof that the right ones do provide a listening benefit. The listening experience with my system is serious. Nevertheless, I am now missing what I heard this afternoon. I also should mention that along with Lenehan audio https://www.lenehanaudio.com.au/curiouscables.html, @Dacman is selling the cables. John For those interested this is the new Curious 4 strand LAN cable that John is talking about. Before anyone asks about the plastic connectors, the creator of Curious cables tested over a period of several months various connectors and in the end went with these ones as from his testing they provided the best sq from all of the various ones he tested. Mike dropped off his demo cable for me to try earlier today, based on what I heard with it in my system I have ordered various lengths to have in stock, hopefully I should have them next week. cheers, Terry ... Edited March 10, 2022 by GC HiFi 2
Stereophilus Posted March 10, 2022 Posted March 10, 2022 12 minutes ago, GC HiFi said: For those interested this is the new Curious 4 strand LAN cable that John is talking about. Before anyone asks about the plastic connectors, the creator of Curious cables tested over a period of several months various connectors and in the end went with these ones as from his testing they provided the best sq from all of the various ones he tested. Mike dropped off his demo cable for me to try earlier today, based on what I heard with it in my system I have ordered various lengths to have in stock, hopefully I should have them next week. cheers, Terry ... Plastic plug is good… implies no shield. 1
BugPowderDust Posted March 10, 2022 Posted March 10, 2022 Has anyone run one of these through a suitable Fluke cable tester? I’d be curious as to whether they pass snuff in terms of certification. 2
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