Network switches and cables

[bob_m_54]

4 hours ago, MattyW said:

 

It's explained on the material on their site.  Silver plated copper,  shielding wrapped around the wire in such a way resistance is similar to an air dialectic both improving conductivity and reducing interference. Copying this structure is why I was interested in trying the fakes in the first place. Sounds pretty unique to me 

I think you may have misread their information, unless it has changed from what is currently on their website.

 

Quote

In order to meet the increasing demand for high speed data and
increased bandwidth, the Valhalla 2 Ethernet Cable has the
advantage of eight, 23 AWG, solid core conductors wrapped in a
high density polymer insulation. These annealed conductors are
arranged into four twisted pairs before being triple-shielded. Each
of these design aspects minimizes skin effect, eliminates crosstalk
and EMI (electromagnetic interference), and ensures a high
performance network cable, offering far more bandwidth than is
needed for the typical data demands of today.

 

It doesn't mention silver plated copper shield, it says the polymer insulated wires are arranged in four twisted pairs, before being triple shielded. ie. the shield is over the four twisted pairs.

 

Shielding and insulation (dielectric) does not affect conductor resistance, nor conductance.

[MattyW]

1 hour ago, bob_m_54 said:

I think you may have misread their information, unless it has changed from what is currently on their website.

 

 

It doesn't mention silver plated copper shield, it says the polymer insulated wires are arranged in four twisted pairs, before being triple shielded. ie. the shield is over the four twisted pairs.

 

Shielding and insulation (dielectric) does not affect conductor resistance, nor conductance.

I never said silver plated copper shield. That is just the wires themselves. It has foil wrapped around each strand in a particular arrangement allowing better conductivity (like air dialectic) and shielding. That is the only thing I've alluded to as being somewhat unique. This is covered on their site.

 

The other thing mentioned, no idea how close the fakes are in any way to the genuine product. No idea how thick plating is, or precision with the foil windings etc. I just thought it worthwhile trying based on low cost and it seems to have paid off. Enough so I've bought some more. Thankfully I can place it all in locations where I can't see it. I really don't like seeing a brand of product on something I know not to be genuine.

Edited August 30, 2021 by MattyW

[dbastin]

Let's clarify this chat about Valhalla 2 ethernet cables,

https://www.nordost.com/valhalla-reference.php states:

 

Like all Nordost cables, Valhalla 2 starts with a strong foundation: silver-plated, OFC solid core conductors, extruded FEP insulation, a mechanically tuned construction, and asymmetrical grounding. 

 

V2 cables use Dual Mono-Filament technology, Nordost’s patented process of separating the conductor from its FEP insulation. During production, each conductor is intricately and uniformly wrapped in a twisted pair of FEP Mono-Filament, before being encased in an extruded layer of high quality FEP. This intricate process allows every conductor to be surrounded by its own air dielectric, which is directly responsible for the dramatic increase of signal speeds and excellent mechanical damping of the cable. 

 

The info sheet also states:

 

the Valhalla 2 Ethernet Cable has the advantage of eight, 23 AWG, solid core conductors wrapped in a high density polymer insulation. These annealed conductors are arranged into four twisted pairs before being triple-shielded.

 

FEP = Fluorinated Ethylene Propylene Copolymer, not foil.  I suspect shielding each conductor would compromise the benefits of using twisted pairs.  Some cables put each twisted pair in a shield, and then double shield the bundle of 4 pairs, such as:

 

The Heimdall 2 Ethernet Cable consists of eight 23 AWG polymer insulated conductors, arranged in four individually shielded, twisted pairs, which are then wrapped in braided, silver-plated copper shielding, and encased within a high-density polymer insulation. 

 

The Blue Heaven Ethernet Cable is comprised of eight, 24 AWG, polymer insulated, solid core copper conductors, arranged in a twisted pair design. These pairs are individually shielded before the bundle is wrapped in two additional layers of braided shielding. 

 

Note that the Blue Heaven statement here "solid core copper" is contrary to the above "Like all Nordost cables, Valhalla 2 starts with a strong foundation: silver-plated, OFC solid core conductors"

 

This inconsistency is misleading.

[MattyW]

Ok, seems it must be somewhat different. In the breakdown of the fakes it seems to be individually foils shielded wires and there sort of arranged in a spiral. Quite unique. IAs I've said previously I don't like how the stuff sound for audio digital cables. Quite in your face sounding. Seems to be a far more subtle effect when used in CAT8. I rather like it for this. The best I've used, though really not saying that much when apart from no name CAT8 I've only used Supra. I haven't tried the wide variety of cables others have here. Still, seems extremely good for the price.

[bob_m_54]

5 hours ago, MattyW said:

I never said silver plated copper shield. That is just the wires themselves. It has foil wrapped around each strand in a particular arrangement allowing better conductivity (like air dialectic) and shielding. That is the only thing I've alluded to as being somewhat unique. This is covered on their site.

 

The other thing mentioned, no idea how close the fakes are in any way to the genuine product. No idea how thick plating is, or precision with the foil windings etc. I just thought it worthwhile trying based on low cost and it seems to have paid off. Enough so I've bought some more. Thankfully I can place it all in locations where I can't see it. I really don't like seeing a brand of product on something I know not to be genuine.

 

 

OK, on re-reading, I must have misinterpreted what you wrote. The comma between "copper" and "shielding" should have made it obvious... However, none of that can change the resistance or the conductance of the conductors.

 

 

Quote

It's explained on the material on their site.  Silver plated copper,  shielding wrapped around the wire in such a way resistance is similar to an air dialectic both improving conductivity and reducing interference.

 

Edited August 30, 2021 by bob_m_54

[MattyW]

Was just regurgitating the marketing rubbish.  I don't understand how this stuff works.end result is very good though. 

[bob_m_54]

22 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Was just regurgitating the marketing rubbish.  I don't understand how this stuff works.end result is very good though. 

And they have stylish wooden hippy beads..

[MattyW]

Kind of hate those wooden bits. Serve no purpose at all.

[Jsen18]

30 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Kind of hate those wooden bits. Serve no purpose at all.

I used the wooden bits to prevent the cable from touching other cables. 

Edited August 30, 2021 by Jsen18

[MattyW]

Mine is steady against the wall. I've never believed they manual much difference except get in the way if you've multiple cables...

[bob_m_54]

Just now, MattyW said:

Mine is steady against the wall. I've never believed they manual much difference except get in the way if you've multiple cables...

I'm sure they must make some difference. I can't imagine why they'd fit them, if they didn't...

[Stereophilus]

24 minutes ago, bob_m_54 said:

I can't imagine why they'd fit them, if they didn't...

You can and you do… 

[MattyW]

Damn, this Network Acoustics ENO Ag filter has made a very nice improvement in fine detail and textures..... Soundstage is both wider and deeper.  Everything is more present.  Can't wait to see what burn in brings. 

[Assisi]

41 minutes ago, MattyW said:

Can't wait to see what burn in brings. 

I did say that when I got mine a couple on months that 100+ hours settling is a benefit. 

John

[MattyW]

23 minutes ago, Assisi said:

I did say that when I got mine a couple on months that 100+ hours settling is a benefit. 

John

What were the main changes you found with burn in. I notice a slight treble emphasis and de-emphasis of body/bass presently though hoping bass will improve over time. 

 

Going to be interesting to see what changes it brings to video playback as well.  See if there are visible changes. The media PC is used for Roon, Netflix,  YouTube and Chinese streaming apps via BlueStacks Android emulation software. 

Edited September 6, 2021 by MattyW

[MattyW]

Ok after my take after installing the Network Acoustics Eno Ag filter yesterday: There's improvement in a number of areas straight away though also one notable step back. 

 

There is noticeably improved texture to sound with fine detail improved top to bottom.  With good recordings the sound is palpable,  almost as though you could reach out and touch the instruments with each instrument filling its own 3D space. There's an improved sense of sound stage width,  depth and height. I must admit to things sounding so incredible that I teared up last night. It's been some time since music through my system had that effect.

 

Now for the bad. There's a leaness in the bass which hurts overall presence despite those instruments actually being audible in that region.  It feels a little like the system has been ever so slightly tilted towards treble.  Network Acoustics does recommend 100 hours use before any serious comparison so with luck this will improve in time

[dbastin]

4 hours ago, MattyW said:

Now for the bad. There's a leaness in the bass which hurts overall presence despite those instruments actually being audible in that region.  It feels a little like the system has been ever so slightly tilted towards treble. 

That has been my experience with improving ethernet generally, but I would not call it bad.  It is probably more correct, and will reveal the balance of your system and you may benefit from reviewing what experiences of bass you use as a reference of what is correct.

 

When distortion, noise, ringing etc is reduced, bass is less bloated because there is essentially less in the decay.  This shows the difference in impulse between corrected and uncorrected signal, in this case using PEQ, but I gather it is the same concept.

 

If the music has it and your system can reveal it, there is still bucket loads of bass info to be conveyed.

 

And this is what Devialet SAM does also to address this issue.

Edited September 7, 2021 by dbastin

[MattyW]

Hmmm, I may adjust the level of the amp driving my woofers a bit 

 

EDIT: Yes, I can hear detail in bas where previously I could not.... I do miss the sense of body that was there before with tracks such as Yello's Electrified II though in reality I don't really listen to much EDM etc.  The change I've had is noticeably better overall.

Edited September 7, 2021 by MattyW

[MattyW]

Actually the difference with the ENO Ag in place is pretty mind blowing..... If the recording is up to it. Billie Holiday's recordings really are blowing me away presently. Have only just got into her music so still discovering it. The difference between my main system and second system is not even close as this point. It just destroys all. Actually I've never heard anything like it. I'm consistently tricked into thinking I'm there. Things are just so unbelievably lifelike. Thanks for bringing the ENO Ag filter to my attention @Assisi

 

I'm assuming you've one on the way at this point @evil c?

[davewantsmoore]

On 07/09/2021 at 11:43 AM, dbastin said:

When distortion, noise, ringing etc is reduced, bass is less bloated because there is essentially less in the decay.  This shows the difference in impulse between corrected and uncorrected signal, in this case using PEQ, but I gather it is the same concept.

 

Sort of.

 

Of the 3 you mention there ( distortion, noise, ringing)   ringing is to do with the frequency response (ie. constant amplitude.... vs peaks and dips.... bass louder than treble, etc.) ..... and that is mostly what dirac and SAM are fixing.... and what those pics are showing.     That may sound unintuative because those pictures are of "time response" .... but what's overlooked is that any non-flat frequency response is just another way of describing "wrong" time response.

 

OTOH, errors in digital systems ....  don't change the frequency (amplitude) response.   ie. they don't make the bass amplitude actually higher (or the treble lower), or peaks and dips happen.   What they do is introduce noise and distortion....  and this can sometimes sound a bit similar.

 

Gross amounts of digtial problems (ie. jitter) .... can affact the low frequencies significantly  (as the noise/distortion can accumulate here).

 

 

It's highly recommended to "re EQ" the system to "taste", once digital performance is improved.... especially if you have a system which has previously been EQed to "taste".... or a DIY system built to "what sounds good".    ie. the driver amplitudes were never set to anything specific except "preference".

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[evil c]

1 hour ago, MattyW said:

Actually the difference with the ENO Ag in place is pretty mind blowing..... If the recording is up to it. Billie Holiday's recordings really are blowing me away presently. Have only just got into her music so still discovering it. The difference between my main system and second system is not even close as this point. It just destroys all. Actually I've never heard anything like it. I'm consistently tricked into thinking I'm there. Things are just so unbelievably lifelike. Thanks for bringing the ENO Ag filter to my attention @Assisi

 

I'm assuming you've one on the way at this point @evil c?

TBH I had a listen to one in my system for a day, and while there was a difference- l questioned whether it was considerable enough to warrant the expense of the ENO.

I had a listen with my muso son to a very well recorded 24/192 classical piece , and we were undecided.

 

It sounded so good without it in the mix, we agreed we could happily live without it- however I don't doubt that you're hearing a benefit. 

Remember that I have 3 Acoustic Revive Ethernet cables, with the Renolabs switch, so perhaps with them the incremental improvements are more subtle!,

 

I did hover over the buy button, I'll admit - but it is expensive for a seemingly  small filter although that hasn't stopped me in the past!

 

I would certainly like to hear Johns or another ENO to make sure, maybe one time when ,(if), ever allowed to mingle again.

[MattyW]

32 minutes ago, evil c said:

TBH I had a listen to one in my system for a day, and while there was a difference- l questioned whether it was considerable enough to warrant the expense of the ENO.

I had a listen with my muso son to a very well recorded 24/192 classical piece , and we were undecided.

 

It sounded so good without it in the mix, we agreed we could happily live without it- however I don't doubt that you're hearing a benefit. 

Remember that I have 3 Acoustic Revive Ethernet cables, with the Renolabs switch, so perhaps with them the incremental improvements are more subtle!,

 

I did hover over the buy button, I'll admit - but it is expensive for a seemingly  small filter although that hasn't stopped me in the past!

 

I would certainly like to hear Johns or another ENO to make sure, maybe one time when ,(if), ever allowed to mingle again.

 

Haha, it could well be that your lovely MSB DAC has some pretty fantastic galvanic isolation as well so it's possibly unnecessary in your system? My Abbas DAC is pretty old school inter terms of technology used and 16 bit 44kHz is where it's at for me 

 

The Abbas responds extremely well to any changes upstream of it in the overall signal path. I'm guessing better isolation with the MSB though it's just a guess. There was a fairly noticeable improvement in fine detail top to bottom in my system. I'd not call it fantastic value though I thought it enough of a difference that I didn't regret buying 

[dbastin]

2 hours ago, davewantsmoore said:

 

Sort of.

 

Of the 3 you mention there ( distortion, noise, ringing)   ringing is to do with the frequency response (ie. constant amplitude.... vs peaks and dips.... bass louder than treble, etc.) ..... and that is mostly what dirac and SAM are fixing.... and what those pics are showing.     That may sound unintuative because those pictures are of "time response" .... but what's overlooked is that any non-flat frequency response is just another way of describing "wrong" time response.

 

OTOH, errors in digital systems ....  don't change the frequency (amplitude) response.   ie. they don't make the bass amplitude actually higher (or the treble lower), or peaks and dips happen.   What they do is introduce noise and distortion....  and this can sometimes sound a bit similar.

 

Gross amounts of digital problems (ie. jitter) .... can affact the low frequencies significantly  (as the noise/distortion can accumulate here).

 

It's highly recommended to "re EQ" the system to "taste", once digital performance is improved.... especially if you have a system which has previously been EQed to "taste".... or a DIY system built to "what sounds good".    ie. the driver amplitudes were never set to anything specific except "preference".

Thanks, that is a sensible explanation of things I am not very knowledgeable about.  And I agree about the re-EQing.

 

The ringing I was referring to in a conceptual sense is this ... https://samplerateconverter.com/educational/ringing-audio  I am quite possibly wrong referring to ringing.

 

I explored ringing a bit when playing around with the sample conversion in Aries G1 - talk of linear phase and minimum phase filters and pre ringing etc got me reading a bit to get a rough understanding.  It occurred to me that Auralic may have designed some filters (sample conversion or simply in data processing) to actually create ringing or a type of decay in a desirable way (albeit they may be less accurate but subjectively sound better).   That is one way to create a unique Auralic 'house sound'.  

 

So the decay or ringing in the impulse, is then enhanced by the rest of the system, speakers and in-room response. 

 

The evidence was my experience with Aries G1 and Devialet.  At first the bass response with G 1 was ... WOWzer!!,  But over time I realised it seemed to excite too much room response/resonance, even when I dialled back the bass via volume level.  I had to adjust my subs and EQ quite a bit to give a similar balance to the Devialet.  With the Devialet, although it could be described as leaner bass, it is more dense, strong and impactful (like compression in a really good way), just with less decay.  So weather it is decay, ringing, noise or jitter distortion, or a combination, the Devialet seems to improve the in room-response.  My curiosity lead me to find this ... https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/eq-does-improve-bass-decay.2506/.

 

Incidentally the grounding and contact cleaning has also improved in room response.

 

Somewhere, the ethernet system, its cables, switches, clocks, power supplies, filters, all contribute to the in room response.  And that is what we listen to.

 

The moral is ... improve your ethernet and it will most probably improve the bass response of your system and room, which incidentally also improves a greater frequency band.

[davewantsmoore]

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Thanks, that is a sensible explanation of things I am not very knowledgeable about.  And I agree about the re-EQing.

 

The ringing I was referring to in a conceptual sense is this ... https://samplerateconverter.com/educational/ringing-audio  I am quite possibly wrong referring to ringing.

You can also have ringing just in time (without a not flat FR) like they're talking about in that link.

 

... but the "non flat frequency response" part of ringing is (mostly) what SAM and Dirac are fixing.

 

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

I explored ringing a bit when playing around with the sample conversion in Aries G1 - talk of linear phase and minimum phase filters and pre ringing etc

Yes.    This is talking about the "time performance" of changing the frequency response (to cut out the very high frequencies).

 

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

got me reading a bit to get a rough understanding.  It occurred to me that Auralic may have designed some filters (sample conversion or simply in data processing) to actually create ringing or a type of decay in a desirable way

Yes.... you can choose what sort of time performance you want... and then work backwards to the low pass filter.

 

This is also what MQA are doing.

 

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

My curiosity lead me to find this ... https://www.avnirvana.com/threads/eq-does-improve-bass-decay.2506/.

Yes... that's exactly what I'm talking about.   Non-flat frequency response also has corresponding time (phase, decay, whatever) distortion.

 

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

Somewhere, the ethernet system, its cables, switches, clocks, power supplies, filters, all contribute

Yes, it can be very sensitive......  but that's the sign of a bad thing.    "very revealing of upstream changes" when talking about networks connected to audio gear....  is a bug, not a feature.  (ie. a sign of a problem).

 

 

21 minutes ago, dbastin said:

 

The moral is ... improve your ethernet and it will most probably improve the bass response of your system and room, which incidentally also improves a greater frequency band.

 

[Assisi]

On 06/09/2021 at 10:30 PM, MattyW said:

What were the main changes you found with burn in

I find it difficult to explain sometimes  why I perceive a benefit that I prefer to one thing to something else.  That goes for a change that may happen over a period of time such as settling in.  I just have an innate  sense for me as to what works for me sound wise and what doesn't.  With the ENO I knew that I liked it from the beginning.  As it is passive it is very easy to disconnect and reconnect.  When I did that from time to time what I heard was a real feel good and that I just became increasingly more engaged with the music from the bass though to the HF over time.  I was more engaged with the smoothness and the detail of what I was hearing.

 

If we did not have the COVID current rules for travel and meeting together in regional Victoria, I think a couple of other people would have experienced my ENO by now. The rules change from 11.59pm tomorrow night.  Wonderful!!!  I have to say that for me the impact of the rules have not been significant.  More a nuisance.  However for many people the rules are a major issue on all aspects of their lives

 

6 hours ago, evil c said:

Thanks for bringing the ENO Ag filter to my attention

I am pleased that it was a great outcome for you.

5 hours ago, MattyW said:

Haha, it could well be that your lovely MSB DAC

 I wasn't aware that @evil c has a MSB DAC.  I wonder why he didn't tell me?

 

John

Edited September 8, 2021 by Assisi
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