Volunteer El Tel Posted March 21, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 21, 2022 31 minutes ago, Ittaku said: Yes there is, this is a cat-o-nine-tails. Oh wait... Apologies for not being timely with my reply. I've been busy crafting artisanal cables. Anybody want me to knock one up for them?
Hydrology Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 10 minutes ago, El Tel said: Apologies for not being timely with my reply. I've been busy crafting artisanal cables. Anybody want me to knock one up for them? There's a high chance that wont work with digital data... 1
Assisi Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 5 hours ago, aussievintage said: 17 hours ago, dbastin said: This discussion is going really well, educational, and entertaining. . I disagree. It seems to me that most recent comments have in the main come from posters who are opposed to the value of home networking per se. There has been minimal comment from those with a home network as part of their audio system. There may be the occasional miniscule snippets of value. Not much to learn. I have learnt something that may be useful to me to further improve my network setup. To paraphrase the words of Hamlet –“To shield or not to Shield, that is the question?” This topic has been conducted in two stages Before pages 3 or 4 and then after. The early stage dealt amicably with the question from the OP. Many of the posters from the first stage are no longer posting. Mention has been made of sensible audiophiles. Those that have networks who are no longer posting are probably the sensible ones. I am sure the if OP read the second stage of the thread, he/she would be at least be a little confused and off topic. For example, there are irrelevant frivolous side issues such as mistakes in data centres, disinformation, put downs, enough rabbit burrows to make a sizeable warren, tweaks, cable compliance and or measurements, a suggestion of saving some us from our ignorance. 14 hours ago, Monkeyboi said: IMHO stifling honest and open discussion is the first step in driving contributors away from online forums leaving them sterile and devoid of useful content. A forum is nothing if it has no contributors. There are many here who freely contribute their wealth of knowledge which enriches the membership overall. Many of the persons who could contribute did so early on in the thread and then left when there was a change in emphasis. Many of the recent significant contributions are from one side of the equation. Not much to enrich the membership overall. There is very little about what happens and why after the NBN NTD in the home network. That is the key area for me. I can assure all posters that I post little compared to what I could about my network experiences. I do not like to be put down as I consider that I have been in the past on occasions in what I post by those who think that they are the smartest person in the room. I am definitely not contributing the wealth of knowledge that I could. The Forum is not the only place where I discuss topics like networking. I am fully aware that some SNA members will not post or have stopped posting in despair as they do not want the push back. It has been said to me on numerous occasions why do you post? You are stupid. You know where it will come from and what the responses will be and so on? Mind you the problem is not unique to SNA. 5 hours ago, aussievintage said: I vote we stop trying to dumb things down. No progress that way... I agree. There is however a conundrum. When responses to posts from people like me end up being put down, then the consequence is dumbing things down unfortunately as I or others tend not to respond. Where does the responsibility for dumbing down sit? Noise Finally, what to me is the elephant in the room. Noise. It has been alluded to, to a limited extent by various posters including me. To me the understanding of it and treating it is fundamental in the home network context. That is what it is about. I asked a series of questions of @davewantsmoore in response to some thing he said. He never answered. I still wonder why? Maybe a serious discussion of noise is in the too hard basket. @BugPowderDust Said in another thread. “Introspection definitely seems unusual around here". I suggest that the comment equally applies in this thread. A little bit more introspection is required from us all. John 1
aussievintage Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Assisi said: I disagree. It seems to me that most recent comments have in the main come from posters who are opposed to the value of home networking per se. There has been minimal comment from those with a home network as part of their audio system. There may be the occasional miniscule snippets of value. Not much to learn. Opposed? Huh. That is simply not true. Lots of stuff has been discussed that is entirely relevant to the home networking side of things. I would hazard a guess that we nearly all have a home network that we use daily for audio, this being SNA. 6 minutes ago, Assisi said: I agree. There is however a conundrum. When responses to posts from people like me end up being put down, then the consequence is dumbing things down unfortunately as I or others tend not to respond. Where does the responsibility for dumbing down sit? With everyone. No cop-outs allowed, and yes, this means you too. No claiming you don't understand how it works and don't want to know either.
Assisi Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, aussievintage said: No claiming you don't understand how it works and don't want to know either. Do I need to understand how a car engine works to be able to drive a car? Do I need to understand how the internet works to be able to connect to SNA? Do I need to know the intricacies of a network switch to be able to connect it or a DAC or an amplifier? I don't need to know the engineering details and I am not overly interested in finding out. I am fundamentally interested in the outcomes and the pleasure experience derived and commenting on that experience. Do know how everything works? John 2 1
Volunteer El Tel Posted March 21, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) ......................................... Edited March 21, 2022 by El Tel 1
Niktech Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 16 minutes ago, El Tel said: Judging by your comments alone, @aussievintage, I presume my post about having to call out disinformation is somewhat unpopular? It would behove people to take a breath and take another look at my post and see that I didn't actually mention audio or home networking in anyway; mine was general commentary on the state of a "post truth world". To infer is not my role, it is that of the reader. Mine is to imply and I did not. It seems that playing the man and not the ball is the knee-jerk reaction; although I'm not particularly bothered about criticism from sources that I won't be seeking any advice from. LOL. The isn’t the sporting field. Besides, I think we’ve got a pretty good idea what your “game” is from your posts in the past 7 pages 3
aussievintage Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Assisi said: Do know how everything works? That is the most childish thing I have seen posted here ever. You have the honour of being the first on my ignore list.
tesla13BMW Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 1 hour ago, Assisi said: Do I need to understand how a car engine works to be able to drive a car? Do I need to understand how the internet works to be able to connect to SNA? Do I need to know the intricacies of a network switch to be able to connect it or a DAC or an amplifier? I don't need to know the engineering details and I am not overly interested in finding out. I am fundamentally interested in the outcomes and the pleasure experience derived and commenting on that experience. No you don't, but, if you want to make it go faster or drive better you need to know how those items operate to be able to investigate how to achieve your goals. If you aren't interested in finding out the details then there wont be any outcomes because you will have no idea of what to try. 3
Neo Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 6 minutes ago, tesla13BMW said: No you don't, but, if you want to make it go faster or drive better you need to know how those items operate to be able to investigate how to achieve your goals. If you aren't interested in finding out the details then there wont be any outcomes because you will have no idea of what to try. That’s why you engage other people who are more knowledgeable, in case of cars, a tuner company. They will be able to discuss and show you what is possible for your make and model. So it’s not dissimilar to hifi and the retailers and the manufacturers of the products, in this case (Ethernet related items as an example) Neo
aussievintage Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Neo said: So it’s not dissimilar to hifi and the retailers and the manufacturers of the products, in this case (Ethernet related items as an example) Except with hifi you are MUCH MUCH more likely to be lied to, or at least mislead by idiots.
tesla13BMW Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Neo said: That’s why you engage other people who are more knowledgeable, in case of cars, a tuner company. They will be able to discuss and show you what is possible for your make and model. So it’s not dissimilar to hifi and the retailers and the manufacturers of the products, in this case (Ethernet related items as an example) Neo Point taken. I look to become educated, discover possibilities and then employ the options I think are worthy if I can afford it:-) Unfortunately there are too many people out there just selling things and don't have the knowledge or morals not to simply be there to take your money even if it isn't going to help you any. 1
Volunteer El Tel Posted March 21, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 21, 2022 4 minutes ago, Neo said: That’s why you engage other people who are more knowledgeable, in case of cars, a tuner company. They will be able to discuss and show you what is possible for your make and model. So it’s not dissimilar to hifi and the retailers and the manufacturers of the products, in this case (Ethernet related items as an example) Neo And we come full circle. About the last people you want to ask for networking advice are hifi manufacturers and I certainly wouldn't be asking a retailer about it. I tell you what.... The first vendor/manufacturer that has a properly credentialed networking expert on their design team that will converse with enterprise networking experts on record, explain the product, allow it to be publicly tested and provide answers to questions posed surrounding its audiophile credentials will see me and a goodly amount of members eat heaps of humble pie. 2
Hydrology Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 3 minutes ago, El Tel said: eat heaps of humble pie. But as you are the expert in your chosen field, you wouldn't buy into it anyways, so what's the point? Besides, most "other" retailers I interact with are more than happy to loan these products for people to make up their own opinion, with absolutely ZERO pressure. I don't recall hypnosis and coercion being part of my retail training in the early days. 1
aussievintage Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, Hydrology said: Besides, most "other" retailers I interact with are more than happy to loan these products for people to make up their own opinion, with absolutely ZERO pressure. I must first applaud anyone who does this. Good on you guys for having this policy. But (sorry, but yeah ) I'll bet you still tell them all the good things the product is supposed to do, according to the manufacturer, show them the sales blurb/pamphlets/brochures, and mention all the positive reviewers, and maybe even mention all the talk about it on the net? That is still pressure that will bias the resulting experience. 1
Analogueage Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 I have read most of this thread and it is an example of why I don't post very often on stereonet. I will make one thing very clear though that I am client of Frank Prowse HiFi, and other audio stores in Perth and Melbourne, and have listened to a number of there audio switches and have never been influenced in any way to buy this gear with fancy salesmanship, pamphlets etc. I have used my ears to determine what I think sounds better and made a decision from there. For the record I did buy an audio switch (from another retailer i.e. not FP Hifi) and thought for a while it made a difference but in the end I took it out of the system and I am very pleased with the sound I now listen to. 5
Neo Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 13 minutes ago, aussievintage said: But (sorry, but yeah ) I'll bet you still tell them all the good things the product is supposed to do, according to the manufacturer, show them the sales blurb/pamphlets/brochures, and mention all the positive reviewers, and maybe even mention all the talk about it on the net? Ok, they do have to discuss the item, as the customer will have questions as to what it does and how it does that. The retailer will draw that from the knowledge of manufacturers and the information contained in the brochures and their website Neo 2
Volunteer El Tel Posted March 21, 2022 Volunteer Posted March 21, 2022 Just now, Neo said: Ok, they do have to discuss the item, as the customer will have questions as to what it does and how it does that. The retailer will draw that from the knowledge of manufacturers and the information contained in the brochures and their website Neo Yeah - and therein lies another issue. The marketing info in the brochures doesn't stack-up with what actually happens or what actually can happen. That's why you get a ton of actual networking experts turning those claims into a crispy pile of flame ash on fora just like this. And when they make spurious claims and then flash the price tag of a piece of kit that is orders of magnitude higher than it is worth, well, once again, here we are. 2
Hydrology Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 (edited) 39 minutes ago, aussievintage said: I must first applaud anyone who does this. Good on you guys for having this policy. But (sorry, but yeah ) I'll bet you still tell them all the good things the product is supposed to do, according to the manufacturer, show them the sales blurb/pamphlets/brochures, and mention all the positive reviewers, and maybe even mention all the talk about it on the net? That is still pressure that will bias the resulting experience. From personal experience at the retail level, we have INCREASED the number of network-related products in-store. Why on EARTH would we do such a thing when it is clearly this hard to convince people that they "may" improve their digital system? One would say to go down this path would be retail suicide. I could just spend my time convincing every client to spend an extra couple of thousand dollars on a better DAC, streamer, server etc and not bother with this networking malarky. And before anyone says it - no, there isnt better profit margin on these products (if anything, the opposite is true more often than not) to justify stocking such products. But it would be remiss of us to NOT acknowledge the fact that this part of the hifi industry exists and its worth a conversation. I repeat, a conversation, not a high-pressure move on the part of the retailer. And forget about retailers, how much of this network stuff is bought online, direct, with ZERO interaction from someone who "may" actually have had experience with the product? Do you think I'm going to tell a client who walks through the door to spend 4K on a Waversa switch when that alone costs more than their first foray into proper hi-fi? Of course not. Even those who come in to buy such a product, I STILL tell them to take it home for a week and have a play. But the one thing that keeps getting ignored here is that ALL hi-fi enthusiasts are an intelligent bunch - these suggestions that we have a magic flute that leads people down a garden path upon playback, is laughable. Edited March 21, 2022 by Hydrology 6
klm Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 After reading just a few pages at the end of this thread, I’m so glad I have no desire to engage with streaming as a source of music reproduction. Life is far to short to spend it tapping away on a light emitting device hoping for some form of new truth. 4
rantan Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 Just now, klm said: After reading just a few pages at the end of this thread, I’m so glad I have no desire to engage with streaming as a source of music reproduction. Life is far to short to spend it tapping away on a light emitting device hoping for some form of new truth. Amen to that. Black and/ or silver discs. Just play it and go. Apologies for the OT 4
bob_m_54 Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 9 hours ago, Hydrology said: I think a lot more men than you think would consider it, but then, I have no clue where the price point of such medicinal products begins, maybe $500 is the equivalent of an Ether-Regen? Well, my old man was a salesman for most of his working life. It's amazing what people will buy, that they had no idea they even needed, with the right approach.. Personally, I don't need it, but maybe some tint wouldn't go astray. 1
aussievintage Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 27 minutes ago, Hydrology said: ALL hi-fi enthusiasts are an intelligent bunch Sorry, but that's an unwarranted assumption with which I cannot agree. 2
Hydrology Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 20 minutes ago, klm said: After reading just a few pages at the end of this thread, I’m so glad I have no desire to engage with streaming as a source of music reproduction. Life is far to short to spend it tapping away on a light emitting device hoping for some form of new truth. The thing about this particular topic is that it is a tweak to streaming. For some, a big one, for others, a small one. And for others, we are clearly all delusional. I would suggest anyone pin down their digital rig first, before stepping into the fringes of network tweaking, if at all. I would encourage anyone, even those clients who "might" want to buy a fancy switch at the time of hifi purchase, to not do so. It's a conversation for another time, again, if at all. Digital audio is wonderful @klm, ironically I bought far more vinyl over the last 3 years because of the music discovery aspect of it. Dont let this thread drag you down - this was not intention of the original creator of the thread. 2
Hydrology Posted March 21, 2022 Posted March 21, 2022 1 minute ago, aussievintage said: Sorry, but that's an unwarranted assumption with which I cannot agree. Now you're just nit-picking for the sake of nit-picking. 1
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