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Technics SL-1200 project


amdan

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1 hour ago, Warren Jones said:

I used O rings on my Technics EPA100 they do work but internal damping is better. Silicone tubing works well as does foam earplugs

 

Personally I prefer the earplugs as they are much lighter than silicone tube.

 

A good test is to float the arm, listen at the bearing housing with a stethoscope and tap the arm wand, no damping and you can clearly hear the ring of the tube through the bearing.

I tested earplugs (we have loads for the range) and the tube worked much better, in the drop test with the plugs it still bounced, but was less erratic than without, but with the tube it lands and stops dead. My other concern with plugs is the arm wire is restricted and re weight, I just weighed a tube I bought to fit in my sl1200G and it is only 2.7g which does not add much to effective mass as it is entire length of arm wand not like adding 2.7g at the headshell, reality is it makes little difference to effective mass.

I also tried O rings and yes they work so I agree it is worth doing if someone does not want to rewire the arm, but internal tube is night and day better. I tried a few other things but nothing worked as well, even tried shrink wrap again internal tube is way better.

Chris

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On 28/08/2021 at 1:45 PM, SL1200 said:

Following on from my platter comment here are some pics.

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This is an important picture.  It shows the underside of a SL1200 platter when the rubber underlay has been stripped off.  You can see from the bare metal that this is where there was no glue.  This is mainly why the rubber underlay on the Technics 1200's biggest defect.  Actually, as mentioned, not only can you see it but tapping the platter sound like a gong.

 

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The next step after removing the bulk of the rubber is to clean the surface in preparation for a new underlay.  This is painstaking work with paring knife and later with acetone and steel wool.

 

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Here are three platters.  Note that one has a dynamat underlay and one has an epoxy underlay.  Dynamat is a vastly better material for damping than rubber.  As an aside you can use it inside your speakers.

 

 

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Here is a pair of platters.  This is just to show how I kept the epoxy out of the finger lifts.  I have used some teflon.  After removal of the teflon then the residue is sanded flat.

 

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This a a different epoxy, in this case G-Flex.  It is expensive but easier to work with.  It is not 100% clear but within the outer rim I have placed lead shot (actually the 'lead' nowadays is made from steel).

 

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Here is an example of what to do with a tatty looking platter.  The dotted surface is usually the worst looking part.  Here you can see it has been nuked with 'steel' wool and acetone.  

I have sent an email to a company re some constrained damping sheets for my carts (idea I have) the sheet is 2mm thick and very flat, I will be trying it as a platter mat, my idea is stick it to the top and add a Technics mat over that. I will post results when it arrives.

Chris

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11 hours ago, EV Cali said:

As  @SL1200 mentions ''Worth doing?  Yes but only because the labour cost was nothing"".  

The $5 arm damping is only really a $5 upgrade if you have the skill to disconect and reconect the tone arm wiring yourself.

I have seen arm damping done with rubber O rings placed on the tonearm. @cafe latte do you think this would have the same affect as internal damping?

Also I assume that the Kab oil damper is not an option for my DJing SL1200 MK2s as I need to transport them.

 

O rings work but not even close to internal damping. In the drop test there was an improvement, but way less than internal. When damping is internal it is constrained which increases the damping of what ever use use many times, have a google about constrained damping it is explained really well online. The ear buds work well too but best results from my drop tests were the tube and it slides right in and wires poke through easily too. Anyone doing this mods ask Kab for longer than needed wire as it is not expensive and as I discovered the other day rewiring this arm for Carlton it is a sod to feed short arm wires through when installing arm. Longer wires you can cut and strip when arm is installed. I mark longer wires with marker pen in advance and cut at this mark when arm is back on.

Chris

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3 hours ago, cafe latte said:

I have sent an email to a company re some constrained damping sheets for my carts (idea I have) the sheet is 2mm thick and very flat, I will be trying it as a platter mat, my idea is stick it to the top and add a Technics mat over that. I will post results when it arrives.

Chris

Is the company named SDS or Sound Damped Steel?  I have not experienced their products first hand but the concept seems great.  

But are you talking about cartridges?  You use the word 'carts'.  Very interesting if that is the case.  Keep us posted!

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4 hours ago, SL1200 said:

Is the company named SDS or Sound Damped Steel?  I have not experienced their products first hand but the concept seems great.  

But are you talking about cartridges?  You use the word 'carts'.  Very interesting if that is the case.  Keep us posted!

No different company. Yes I am looking at cartridges and also a turntable mat, probably a number of layers, need to get it here and do some experimenting.

Cheers

Chris

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On 12/09/2021 at 3:36 PM, cafe latte said:

The stock arm is very very good indeed, good points are seriously low friction bearings from memory bearing friction is 1mg which is as low as it gets at any price, most companies dont quote bearing friction as it is poor.

Next the bearings are accurate to 1 micron with no play at all and the skate varies due to the spring set up which is far better than other skate methods like weight on a string.

Bad point is the arm tube is undamped and the arm has no oil damping which is different to actual damping and serves a different purpose. The sl1200G is also undamped but its magnesium arm tube is self damping to some degree and it actually measures rather good.

Anyway back to the sl1200mk2, the undamped arm tube has a resonant peak a couple from memory. The rubber insert mod I have just done due to being internal is constrained damping and the result is remarkable. The difference is an arm tube (removed of course) that bounces and vibrated when dropped 20 cm's it is as lively as a tuning fork. Add the rubber liner and drop again and it lands with a thunk. Arms can not be overdamped either, the best arms like the SME V for example has constrained damping too, we do not want music from the room vibrating the arm tube and getting to the cart in the same way we dont want the vibrating cart vibrating the arm which hangs around smearing everything. Any energy that gets to the arm needs to be killed dead as quick as possible. The result of this 5 dollar mod is astounding the soundstage is wider and everything is cleaner and more detailed as you are only listening to the cart not the arm joining in.

The Kab damper too is another step up damping the movement of the stylus as it tries to track the groove, the oil damping basically widens the compliance and can be seen working best if you put a record on with a warp, without the oil it can leave the groove, but with the oil it tracks the warp no problem. I dont listen to warped records, but the damper works the same helping even when there is no warp. Ad a decent psu and strobe disable and the mk2 can sound very very very good indeed.

Chris 


Any thoughts on whether the upgraded stock arm is better than a Michell Tecnoarm?

 

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41 minutes ago, amdan said:


Any thoughts on whether the upgraded stock arm is better than a Michell Tecnoarm?

 

The unmodded sl1200G measures almost as well as a SME V and it has no damping or oil damping.

The G has magnesium arm wand which is a positive but damp properly the mk2 with a liner and it will be way above a G arm. What does arm arm need to do?

Have great bearings. Tick

Have a good anti Skate. Tick

Be well damped. Well this as discussed can be addressed..

Oil damping is a positive, again can be addressed.

Few arms at any price will compete with the sl200 arm with added damping, rewire and oil damper, few arms have the super low bearing friction for a start or the anti skate that is so accurate so when damping is addressed the stock arm is seriously good.

So good is the stock arm I am looking at modding a G arm for my SP10mk2 project as looking at arms available I feel the Technics one is the best, just a challenge to make it fit.

Chris

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Hi all, have read this thread with some interest. A few months ago I acquired a clean and stock SL1200 MK2. I ordered some parts from KAB. The tonearm wire and the oil dampener, and via local source the Mogami RCA rewire. I haven't fitted any of these yet, because I wanted to become familiar with the sound of the standard deck beforehand. I'm not hanging too much on the impact of these mods but genuinely just curious to see what differences I would notice.

 

Anyway, I really wish I had known about and ordered the internal tonearm liner. I'm certainly not going to pull arm apart just for the rewire alone....... I had been intending to go with the earplug idea. But I can totally see how the liner is more effective.

 

@cafe latte I'm curious to know how snug the fit was when feeding the liner into the tonearm tube?

I'm guessing if it's too loose it doesn't dampen and if it's too tight it dampens but is a pain or impossible to fit?

What are chances of sourcing similar tube locally? (I don't mind going back to KAB, not a $ issue, but delivery on my previous order via UPS too ages for just a small part.)

cheers

pete.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, pistachio said:

Hi all, have read this thread with some interest. A few months ago I acquired a clean and stock SL1200 MK2. I ordered some parts from KAB. The tonearm wire and the oil dampener, and via local source the Mogami RCA rewire. I haven't fitted any of these yet, because I wanted to become familiar with the sound of the standard deck beforehand. I'm not hanging too much on the impact of these mods but genuinely just curious to see what differences I would notice.

 

Anyway, I really wish I had known about and ordered the internal tonearm liner. I'm certainly not going to pull arm apart just for the rewire alone....... I had been intending to go with the earplug idea. But I can totally see how the liner is more effective.

 

@cafe latte I'm curious to know how snug the fit was when feeding the liner into the tonearm tube?

I'm guessing if it's too loose it doesn't dampen and if it's too tight it dampens but is a pain or impossible to fit?

What are chances of sourcing similar tube locally? (I don't mind going back to KAB, not a $ issue, but delivery on my previous order via UPS too ages for just a small part.)

cheers

pete.

 

 

 

Hi Pete, 

The liner is a perfect fit, you need to rotate it as it goes in and  last bit can be a bit tricky as you cant rotate it, but it is not hard. It seems to be medical rubber tubing so easy to get online. The Kab one measures 7.55mm OD so guess it it is either 7mm or 8mm ( what is available) and probably 4mm internal. Pain with Kab is USA postage is crazy expensive so you need to be putting in an order for loads of other stuff..

Thinking to buy some samples of tube and see which one it is and carry it in stock for this reason people dont need 1m you need a few inches for an arm, why the 5 dollar Kab tube is great, not so great when US post is 25 bucks for it..

CHris

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To make inserting the tube easy use alcohol hand gel on the tube and it'll slide in easy, the AHG will evaporate, use the medial grade with no perfume additives. I have heaps of 8mm medical silicone tube offcuts in my scrap bin. that will be long enough, let me know if you want a bit.

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Thanks Chris for the response. Helpful to get some detail on the tube, especially from someone who has encountered it first hand. A bit of quick googling on it and within the medical space it seems the tubing is quite readily available. Given the medical use the spec on OD and ID also seem well detailed and wide ranging with steps of about 1mm for the smaller tubes. Also applies to food industry.

 

This is the kind of thing though that would be easier to source outside of covid - if it were more possible to go see the goods in person etc. I'm thinking in particular about gauging how soft the tube is, there's durometer but I have no reference for that ('cept skateboard wheels in younger days).  

 

You're right about US postage costs too! Haven't bought any vinyl from the US in years largely because of it.

I'll keep an eye on progress with this thread. And when I come to do my tonearm see what's transpired. I will also post back in here if I get along with sourcing some viable substitutes.

Pete.

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21 minutes ago, pistachio said:

Thanks Chris for the response. Helpful to get some detail on the tube, especially from someone who has encountered it first hand. A bit of quick googling on it and within the medical space it seems the tubing is quite readily available. Given the medical use the spec on OD and ID also seem well detailed and wide ranging with steps of about 1mm for the smaller tubes. Also applies to food industry.

 

This is the kind of thing though that would be easier to source outside of covid - if it were more possible to go see the goods in person etc. I'm thinking in particular about gauging how soft the tube is, there's durometer but I have no reference for that ('cept skateboard wheels in younger days).  

 

You're right about US postage costs too! Haven't bought any vinyl from the US in years largely because of it.

I'll keep an eye on progress with this thread. And when I come to do my tonearm see what's transpired. I will also post back in here if I get along with sourcing some viable substitutes.

Pete.

Think I will order a meter of 7 and 8mm just to know and offer the right one to forum members cheap.

I will do a search in the morning.

Chris

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Very interesting discussion as I just bought a Technics SL-1500c and wondering what I can do to elevate its performance.  Are the tonearm mods applicable to this model?

Initially, I'll just be upgrading the cart from the Ortofon 2M Red but always looking for a tweak or two extra.  

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4 hours ago, Goma said:

Very interesting discussion as I just bought a Technics SL-1500c and wondering what I can do to elevate its performance.  Are the tonearm mods applicable to this model?

Initially, I'll just be upgrading the cart from the Ortofon 2M Red but always looking for a tweak or two extra.  

The liner insert for sure, not sure though if the oil damper fits it , but I think it does, pop over to Kabusa and see if the 1500c is listed for the oil damper. The 2M red is the worst cart I ever heard you wont go wrong changing it for almost any other cart.

Chris

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1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

The liner insert for sure, not sure though if the oil damper fits it , but I think it does, pop over to Kabusa and see if the 1500c is listed for the oil damper. The 2M red is the worst cart I ever heard you wont go wrong changing it for almost any other cart.

Chris

Thanks Chris. 

Looks like the oil damper from Kabusa will fit.  A bit hesitant about fitting the liner though.  Is that difficult?

Cheers

Mark

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2 hours ago, Goma said:

Thanks Chris. 

Looks like the oil damper from Kabusa will fit.  A bit hesitant about fitting the liner though.  Is that difficult?

Cheers

Mark

Not really, but I do this sort of thing a lot.. It will be way easier though if you get longer wires and cut to length at the end as really fiddly with wires that just fit.

Do you have much soldering experience?

If you do do it yourself PM me and I will give you a few hints which will make it much easier.

Chris

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1 hour ago, cafe latte said:

Not really, but I do this sort of thing a lot.. It will be way easier though if you get longer wires and cut to length at the end as really fiddly with wires that just fit.

Do you have much soldering experience?

If you do do it yourself PM me and I will give you a few hints which will make it much easier.

Chris

 

42 minutes ago, pistachio said:

@Goma if you're basing your 1500C conclusions on hearing it with only the 2M red then you have plenty more potential to unlock by changing carts. And that's without saying you have to spend silly money either.

Good news on both counts. 

 

I have considerable soldering experience. As a part time job while studying, I had to do around 1000 connections a day to make computer boards.  But my eyes aren't what they used to be.

 

I have just now committed to a Nagaoka PM-500.  Should have it within a week and will follow up with a report.

Mark

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49 minutes ago, pistachio said:

@Goma if you're basing your 1500C conclusions on hearing it with only the 2M red then you have plenty more potential to unlock by changing carts. And that's without saying you have to spend silly money either.

Yep, here is my modded sl1210mk2 with one of my Decca I just retipped today. Had it ages just not got round to it. This was a Decca gold, retip with nude Mico ridge makes it a super gold. Listen to this you hear how amazing a Techincs can sound.

20210915_193837.jpg

20210915_193827.jpg

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2 minutes ago, Goma said:

 

Good news on both counts. 

 

I have considerable soldering experience. As a part time job while studying, I had to do around 1000 connections a day to make computer boards.  But my eyes aren't what they used to be.

 

I have just now committed to a Nagaoka PM-500.  Should have it within a week and will follow up with a report.

Mark

I have an MP 500 in my collection it is a lovely cart it will smash the 2M red.

Chris

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