Eli Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 1 hour ago, betty boop said: yes Ts/VOG is supported by Dts-X pro...but not atmos... where want top middle L&R is two rows and yes can phantom... but it still doesnt do what a discrete speaker does there and missing Ch also still leaves a hole in middle top and front above centre... and where Ch - Ts comes in phantoms dont replace real speakers but where Ch comes in is a height speaker above the base centre... it does wonders for scale in front image. fills the hole up front... which have to phantom as well if dont have. No, phantoms don't replace real speakers, but (baked soundtracks and upmixing aside) with native immersive soundtracks (you are talking about what a discrete speaker does) you have two scenarios: a) having two more discrete top middle speakers for Atmos (90% of content) and phantoms for 10% of content (DTS:X/Auro) vs b) having discrete VoG and CH for 10% of content and then no sound for 90% of the rest of the time. Yes, we need to include upmixing and baked soundtracks into the whole equation, but I don't believe it's that cut and dry... the source material that's being viewed plays a very large role. While Atmos is rare for you, it's very common for HT enthusiasts with disc collections and higher tier streaming services. If you're watching a lot of upmixed legacy content then VoG and CH make it an easier decision. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TDX Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 I'm going to camping in your theatre room once it's done! 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed369 Posted August 19, 2021 Author Share Posted August 19, 2021 11 minutes ago, TDX said: I'm going to camping in your theatre room once it's done! next month as discussed Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 48 minutes ago, Eli said: Yes but you are pulling the Atmos mix down to Dolby TrueHD 7.1 then re-upmixing with Neural:X. So in doing so you're losing your overhead discretion. Technically it's not upmixing an immersive format (which can't be done currently). You're downmixing (or just not pulling out the height metadata) then applying an upmix. It's not upmixing Atmos. yeah absolutely its what it says... but if see original post I made ...i added the clarification... if want ... ie to upmix... but yes 100% it is truehd whcih is the base of atmos. I dont watch atmos that way just watch it as it is ... but keeping in mind what was talking about was really with regard top middles where they have to phantom for Ts and Ch.... just as with 7.1.4 for atmos ... i have to phantom anyways so nothing to be gained for me there... but do appreciate as i said where have multiple rows... where top middles do play a part. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eli said: No, phantoms don't replace real speakers, but (baked soundtracks and upmixing aside) with native immersive soundtracks (you are talking about what a discrete speaker does) you have two scenarios: a) having two more discrete top middle speakers for Atmos (90% of content) and phantoms for 10% of content (DTS:X/Auro) vs b) having discrete VoG and CH for 10% of content and then no sound for 90% of the rest of the time. Yes, we need to include upmixing and baked soundtracks into the whole equation, but I don't believe it's that cut and dry... the source material that's being viewed plays a very large role. While Atmos is rare for you, it's very common for HT enthusiasts with disc collections and higher tier streaming services. If you're watching a lot of upmixed legacy content then VoG and CH make it an easier decision. hi Eli.. I actually agree with niterida above with regards atmos ...where it is in reality RARE as hell. if you are talking enthusiast I am such ..and top tier of material for me woudl be disc... and atmos i can tell you is still rare so that suddenly changes the equation and your percentages drastically to point ... I could say wihtout batting an eye lid that i use DTS-X and auro 3D for about 99% of what i watch.. it is actually rare as hell to get a disc with atmos when you look the discs i pump through and iu do go through just about every new release... and atmos is rare as hell in streaming i can tell you and even where there it is off DD+ base. I'll talk more on streaming.. the bulk of streaming is in actual fact pcm. its either 2.0 or 5.1 this is where neural X comes into own taking to 7.1.6... i'll talk more responding to your other post ... Edited August 19, 2021 by betty boop 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, Eli said: I think what you're saying here is that the speaker layout for these formats works well when using Auro-matic and Neural:X upmixers. DTS:X and Auro themselves aren't really supported by streaming, FTA etc. Technically, Dolby Surround also supports streaming, FTA and legacy formats. It just doesn't support them for the VoG, CH and front wide (yet) speaker positions. I too though find Neural:X the upmixer of choice for almost all media that isn't natively Atmos. we need to talk about this a little more ... FTA is bulk 2.0 and some very very rare 5.1 ... I stumbled on something that was DD5.1 was survivor the other day... just setting up the new TV that was a first in years woohoo... the bulk is pcm 2.0 and Dts- neural X to 7.1.6 does wonders or this as to streaming here too bulk is 2.0 pcm... some 5.1 pcm and am loving this via dts-neural X to 7.1.6 see example below... ive been watching mini series after mini series off all the streaming platforms eg netflix to prime to disney to britbox and catch up TV services and such and there is i can say without a shadow of doubt 2/5ths of stuff all in atmos ... if go looking on purpose... lets find something in atmos ... yeah you will find ....something... bulk of it is not ... but what there is and a great bulk of non atmos there is i can say is very enjoyable upmixed wiht neural - X let me talk about auro 3D separately.... Edited August 19, 2021 by betty boop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) ok auro 3D ... yes rare as heck in movies.... but where it is ..its actually very good ! but am finding its actually very good as an up mixer 7.1.6 and for music ... what i thought was a game changer for music ...apple music bringing out atmos... turned instead to disappointment ... even their demo a marvin gaye song... "whats going on" yep what is going on .. marvin gaye is hanging like a bat from the ceiling singing from up there some where there are some good tracks though... but still atmos and done well ie intended from the beginning.... is rare ...unless impressed with fake... which a lot of it does sound very fake... auro3D on other hand does a far more believable rendition in upmixing music to 7.1.6 as example below.... Edited August 19, 2021 by betty boop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 2 hours ago, niterida said: only found DTS:X on a coupe of blurays - where are you finding them ? here's one i enjoyed recently ... Train to busan... excellent dts-X track... have to get the us release though.... here's a few 4k uhds to check out ... all stunners ... what a track atomic blonde is ! there also the harry potter series .... the bourne series... theyre there ... but yes more rare than atmos... dts-X is excellent though for upmixing where can to 7.1.6 ... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 3 hours ago, Ed369 said: But sh Where would you suggest the location for the last 2 chanels. As 9.2.4 @Eli any thoughts and suggestions you have for the OP on this ? you must have had some experience of this i imagine ...where works adds benefit ..where doesnt ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cwt Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 3 hours ago, niterida said: I haven't seen a single Auro source in Australia and only found DTS:X on a coupe of blurays - where are you finding them ? Best to separate native auro mixes that need decoding and Auromax;s dsp mode that upmixes already decoded lpcm or lossy codecs . The later is auros answer to DSU and DTS neural x . As you say the % of true encoded auro discrete compared to atmos or dts-x is infinitesimal .. As Eli said you cant apply a dsp upmixer to a true object encoded stream [ only to the lossless track that is carrying the object[atmos] metadata ] The old paradigm that discrete [for movies] is superior to a dsp upmix estimation is still valid ; music is a separate topic fair to say imho 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 2 hours ago, betty boop said: hi Eli.. I actually agree with niterida above with regards atmos ...where it is in reality RARE as hell. if you are talking enthusiast I am such ..and top tier of material for me woudl be disc... and atmos i can tell you is still rare It's not rare as hell though. I've just grabbed a handful of unopened UHD's off the shelf: Doctor Sleep: Atmos Sonic the Hedgehog: Atmos Jack Reacher 2: Atmos A Quiet Place II: Atmos Tenet: DTS 5.1 Master Audio (well, it is Nolan) Invisible Man: Atmos 2012: Atmos Monster Hunter: Atmos I'd honestly have a harder time finding a UHD without Atmos than with. 2 hours ago, betty boop said: so that suddenly changes the equation and your percentages drastically to point ... I could say wihtout batting an eye lid that i use DTS-X and auro 3D for about 99% of what i watch That's why I put the disclaimer at the bottom, you're switching between arguments for discrete vs arguments for upmixing, and I'm trying keep it on one at a time. You're also saying you're using DTS:X and Auro 3D but what you're really using is Neural:X and Auro-matic. The former is a format and layout specification, the latter is the upmixing technology. They're not interchangeable and it's causing confusing about what we're referring to. So much so, that I think you're thinking I'm opposing some of your points, when I'm not For example, I'm not debating that Auromatic does a great job with music, and Neural:X does a great job with everything else. I use the exact same when my source isn't Atmos or DTS:X. I think that poor old Ed (OP) is probably getting sick of our banter, lol. I think I'll just leave it there, but respond to your post above when I get a few more minutes. I appreciate the discussion. Edited August 19, 2021 by Eli 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eli Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, betty boop said: @Eli any thoughts and suggestions you have for the OP on this ? you must have had some experience of this i imagine ...where works adds benefit ..where doesnt ? If the two extra channels are on the bed layer then there's really only one spot they can go, front wides. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question With DTS:X Pro and Neural:X, front wides are fantastic! They fill that gap between front screen speakers and side surrounds nicely. I was watching Walter Mitty the other night and there's a scene where there's a loud knock on the door just off stage right, and coming out the front right wide it actually made me jump, as was it's intention. Neural just has a way of enveloping the seating area. Some legacy DTS tracks I've watched with Neural are better than native Atmos mixes - I know you'll agree with that too Edit: If Ed is talking about exactly where to put the wides, then I agree with Niterida. I normally use the median angle between the front right and right surround, which is the method he described. Many people are happy with the Dolby 50-70 recommendation, so you can choose what you prefer (the two may overlap). In most rooms, something is almost always in the way to place them perfectly anyway! Edited August 19, 2021 by Eli 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eli said: It's not rare as hell though. I've just grabbed a handful of unopened UHD's off the shelf: hehe probably depends what have on the shelf and what happened to grab 1 hour ago, Eli said: I'd honestly have a harder time finding a UHD without Atmos than with. the movies you listed are great ones... but i can also find a lot without atmos in my collection ... more without but my diet is perhaps a bit more varied... i do buy most new releases...dont buy everything ... but not everything has atmos, certainly most of blu-rays dont (and often there is no 4k uhd alternative), many back catalog 4k uhd dont have atmos etiher. discs is also not all i watch either ...theres streaming, music, fta, catchup etc as mentioned just making the point not everything i watch has atmos... and was just agreeing with niterida in this instance 1 hour ago, Eli said: That's why I put the disclaimer at the bottom, you're switching between arguments for discrete vs arguments for upmixing, and I'm trying keep it on one at a time. You're also saying you're using DTS:X and Auro 3D but what you're really using is Neural:X and Auro-matic. The former is a format and layout specification, the latter is the upmixing technology. They're not interchangeable and it's causing confusing about what we're referring to. So much so that I think you're thinking I'm opposing some of your thought when I'm not For example, I'm not debating that Auromatic does a great job with music, and Neural:X does a great job with everything else. I use the exact same when my source isn't Atmos or DTS:X. suspect we are talking cross purposes here. folks potentially have a diet that involves both discrete and upmixing... discrete is discrete... but upmixing does also play a part... and you do need capability for DTS-X(pro particularly) and also Auro3D if want to add value with them going beyond 7.1.4 and i was talking through that... not only across new release but back catalog and various things can appreciate. it is one of benefits of OPs consideration to go 13 channel and say going 7.1.6 for instance i have gone and speaking to ... i have really enjoyed the move to 7.1.6 since start of this years..vs the 7.1.4 predominately with a bit of auro at 7.1.5 i ran for the 5 years prior ... so only speaking from that perspective ... ps not confused thinking you are opposing some of my thought.. just talking through... from my perspective Edited August 19, 2021 by betty boop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
betty boop Posted August 19, 2021 Share Posted August 19, 2021 (edited) 1 hour ago, Eli said: If the two extra channels are on the bed layer then there's really only one spot they can go, front wides. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question maybe OP can clarify what unsure about in that case 1 hour ago, Eli said: With DTS:X Pro and Neural:X, front wides are fantastic! They fill that gap between front screen speakers and side surrounds nicely. I was watching Walter Mitty the other night and there's a scene where there's a loud knock on the door just off stage right, and coming out the front wide it actually made me jump, as was it's intention. Neural just has a way of enveloping the seating area. Some legacy DTS tracks I've watched with Neural are better than native Atmos mixes - I know you'll agree with that too good to hear I dont know if have checked out mr and mrs smith with its dts-hdma track its neural - x rendition is amazing ps with regards the OP, just looking at the slide below from sound united... seeing the OP has a denon 6700 ? , below slide been able to find, it doesnt mention about wides in this configs, but id check the manual with regards support.... edit ... here https://manuals.denon.com/AVRX6700H/NA/EN/DRDZSYpvilxnds.php Edited August 19, 2021 by betty boop 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed369 Posted August 19, 2021 Author Share Posted August 19, 2021 6 hours ago, betty boop said: what is your processor... this is probably biggest source of getting things wrong... best to understand capability and how can utilise to best... as per krobar who pulled below together, Here is the current state of that table: Key - DTS:X Pro / Auro / CH+VOG / VOG Only / CH Only / Max Independent Subs / Max Supported Channels Denon / Marantz - Most 13 Channel models - Yes / Yes / Yes / Yes / Yes / 2 / 13.2 Trinnov Altitude - Yes / Yes / Yes / Yes / Yes / 15 / 16 Storm Audio Mk2 - Yes / Yes / Yes / Yes / Yes / 15 / 16 Arcam / JBL Synth / Audiocontrol - Current Models - No / Yes / Yes / No / No / 5 / 16 Anthem - 2020 Models - No / No / No / No / No / 2 / 15.2 Monoprice HTP-1 - No / Yes / No / No /No / 5 / 16 Thanks for your input,you are always helpful in the section. Thumbs up for you 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ed369 Posted August 19, 2021 Author Share Posted August 19, 2021 2 hours ago, Eli said: If the two extra channels are on the bed layer then there's really only one spot they can go, front wides. Unless I'm misunderstanding the question With DTS:X Pro and Neural:X, front wides are fantastic! They fill that gap between front screen speakers and side surrounds nicely. I was watching Walter Mitty the other night and there's a scene where there's a loud knock on the door just off stage right, and coming out the front right wide it actually made me jump, as was it's intention. Neural just has a way of enveloping the seating area. Some legacy DTS tracks I've watched with Neural are better than native Atmos mixes - I know you'll agree with that too Edit: If Ed is talking about exactly where to put the wides, then I agree with Niterida. I normally use the median angle between the front right and right surround, which is the method he described. Many people are happy with the Dolby 50-70 recommendation, so you can choose what you prefer (the two may overlap). In most rooms, something is almost always in the way to place them perfectly anyway! thanks for your input,thumbs up for your comments 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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