Mid-priced sub for Bowers & Wilkins 800D3 - Is there a good option?

[eagle]

Hiya

 

So after having through room acoustic treatment, countless hours with speaker placement and many different amplifiers, have come to the conclusion that a sub is needed in my system.

 

I have measured the room frequency several times and have some big nulls in the 50 and 80hz areas. I can boost those a bit by pushing my speakers closer to the front wall but then lose soundstage depth and clarity.

 

My current speaker position is a good trade off as it provides adequate warmth and depth plus good imaging. 800’s certain,y have plenty of bass and like the tonality, it’s just those damn nulls that are hurting the bass. I’m not a massive bass head but do like to hear extensions of electronic bass, a more visceral feel of the kick drum etc.

 

The amplifier I have in use is a Pilium Leonidas. Fantastic amp and whilst it is a 

an integrated, has no problems driving the 800d3. (Monos be damned) Sure you could put more power/current into the speaker but that’s not going to fix my problem.

One issue I have is the integrated has no preouts so speaker line level input on the subwoofer is the only option. (Don’t want to use a converter)

 

Been looking at Rel, spoken to dealers and Rel themselves and the subwoofer they say is the right match.....the G1MKII or No25. Whilst that would be lovely, simply too expensive so looking for a more cost effective option. Even the S/810 or the Carbon Special are bloody expensive.

 

Any options other then Rel? I’ve also looked at Rythmik and those GR Research OB look real interesting, and in budget, but diy and shipping cost could be huge.

 

Will consider anything local, new, 2nd hand. 

 

Thanks

 

[THOMO]

You might be best off with a  pro type sub  using 15 or 18 inch high sensitivity woofers .Which will not go as low as some of the domestic ones but is more likely to fill those nulls and sound quick and textured.That type is designed for music whereas most domestic ones are designed for home theatre.

[Guest]

What are the room dimensions and what room treatments have you done?  In particular, what bass traps have you used?

 

And why not get dual subs?   It gives you a better chance of reducing your bass nulls.

[frankn]

Are the B&W subs too expensive?

An outline of room dimensions, speaker & listening position and room treatments would help people advise. 
A snapshot of the acoustic measurement results would also help. 
Rythmik F15HP or F18 ?  Two are definitely better than one. 
Will you use DSP for managing crossover bt sub(s) and mains or run mains full range and use sub as supporting lower frequencies. 

[eagle]

3 hours ago, THOMO said:

You might be best off with a  pro type sub  using 15 or 18 inch high sensitivity woofers .Which will not go as low as some of the domestic ones but is more likely to fill those nulls and sound quick and textured.That type is designed for music whereas most domestic ones are designed for home theatre.

Thanks Thomo.

Any recommendations?

[eagle]

2 hours ago, Snoopy8 said:

What are the room dimensions and what room treatments have you done?  In particular, what bass traps have you used?

 

And why not get dual subs?   It gives you a better chance of reducing your bass nulls.

6m x 4.75m.

Ceiling height is 3.3m.

 

Dual subs is definitely an option.

[Guest]

1 minute ago, eagle said:

6m x 4.75m.

Ceiling height is 3.3m.

 

Dual subs is definitely an option.

No bass traps I assume?

[eagle]

2 hours ago, frankn said:

Are the B&W subs too expensive?

An outline of room dimensions, speaker & listening position and room treatments would help people advise. 
A snapshot of the acoustic measurement results would also help. 
Rythmik F15HP or F18 ?  Two are definitely better than one. 
Will you use DSP for managing crossover bt sub(s) and mains or run mains full range and use sub as supporting lower frequencies. 

B&W subs too expensive plus no speaker line inputs.

I will send some pics through.

Plan to still run the mains full range and use the sub to support lower frequencies.

Just now, Snoopy8 said:

No bass traps I assume?

Have floor to ceiling bass traps in each corner.

[THOMO]

11 minutes ago, eagle said:

Thanks Thomo.

Any recommendations?

RCF have always made great sounding pro speakers.Or perhaps one of the other Italian makers like 18 sound or Faital Pro.They seem to know what they are doing.

 

[Guest]

8 minutes ago, eagle said:

Have floor to ceiling bass traps in each corner.

Suggest you revisit your measurements and design of your bass traps using this old but still very good guide

https://www.hifizine.com/2011/06/bass-integration-guide-part-1/

 

It is puzzling that you still have such big nulls?

[POV]

How much is it you want to spend?  If not looking for sub 20 hz performance then can get by in my view with 12 inch options and there are a couple of good options in the sub $2000 range from my experience.

Edited July 16, 2021 by POV

[POV]

45 minutes ago, eagle said:

 

Plan to still run the mains full range and use the sub to support lower frequencies.

 

 

In my experience this makes it much, much harder to integrate subs effectively.  Would you consider a DIRAC based solution?  

[eagle]

49 minutes ago, POV said:

How much is it you want to spend?  If not looking for sub 20 hz performance then can get by in my view with 12 inch options and there are a couple of good options in the sub $2000 range from my experience.

Yes not worried about subterranean bass. Just something that will go down into the 30’s or thereabouts. Sub $2k would be great

[eagle]

47 minutes ago, POV said:

 

In my experience this makes it much, much harder to integrate subs effectively.  Would you consider a DIRAC based solution?  

I’m keeping an open mind to any solution. I use a Auralic streamer and Esoteric CD player (dac section used with Auralic) that feeds directly into the Pilium integrated amplifier.

[frankn]

Classifieds ?

 

[POV]

On 7/16/2021 at 12:22 PM, eagle said:

Yes not worried about subterranean bass. Just something that will go down into the 30’s or thereabouts. Sub $2k would be great

 

Ok well here is a couple of suggestions:

 

1) MARTIN LOGAN Dynamo 1100X Active Subwoofer   You can pick this for 2k with some haggling and it is an excellent sub for Hifi for the money.  Very clean, tight and tuneful bass, very flexible as can be configured as either down firing or front firing, can take both HT and hifi connections simultaneously, has ARC on board with bluetooth for in room eq.  I don't believe there is a better sub for the money for hifi useage.

 

2) KEF | Kube 12b 12 inch Subwoofer  This is a cheaper option worth looking closely at, insane value at $1400.  These Kef subs fly under the radar but they really deserve more attention.  Out performs many subs costing 2k + in my experience.  Has onboard DSP to adjust for room position that is honestly pretty effective.  Nowhere near as featured as the ML linked above and ultimately not as resolved or clean, but still very listenable.

 

and a left field one:

3) Richter Thor 10.6 I know people associate these with HT but the current model was actually designed form ground up for hifi use and it really is an excellent sub for the money.  Very clean and punchy sounding sub but still capable of resolving delicate passages and orchestral pieces.  Uses a 10 inch driver and doesn't go as low as the previous 2 but still digs well into the 20s .

 

If it was me, I would go the Martin Logan, no question.

 

Have fun!

 

[frankn]

These in classifieds?