My system is a bit to bright to me can someone help? thanks

[buddyev]

 7 and 8 are the really critical elements. . If you get them wrong you will probably get a desirably inky black background but a veil will drop and the soundstage will collapse.

[DanFi]

1 hour ago, POV said:

 

I’m trying to follow along here.  Are you seriously proposing that house power and power cables have a bigger impact on sound than amplifiers and speakers?

Yes. Since it’s a bright issue and he has already changed amps. Double yes. 
 

plus there is a lot of money in that system already and he doesn’t even like the sound. Triple yes. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by DanFi

[Hytram]

Getting an electrician in to install a dedicated circuit will only help if that is problem in the first place.. 

 

I highly recommend it. 

 

But it might or might not fix your problem. 

 

It's not a silver bullet. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Hytram
Gramma

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 hours ago, Yamaha_man said:

You need one of these.

You are on the right track (despite the naysayers).

The OP already has the ability to add EQ via their preamp. Not sure if they've tried this yet @Richard?

[Hytram]

Might be an interesting read for some, one cable manufacturer's take on it all.. 

 

https://www.atlascables.com/design-insulation.html

 

(Still have an problem with the word dielectric being used for insulation for power cables but this article is speaking about cables that carry signal more than main voltage) 

[sir sanders zingmore]

3 hours ago, DanFi said:

Yes. Since it’s a bright issue and he has already changed amps. Double yes. 

 

 

I honestly don’t think the fact that there been an amp change can be used to rule out the amp as being part of the problem. Whilst the amp will have less impact on the sound than the speakers themselves, the OP’s amp is specifically stated by the manufacturer as being unsuitable for the OP’s speakers.

It’s driving a load that it isn’t designed to drive - who knows what mayhem that’s causing to the sound?

 

3 hours ago, DanFi said:

plus there is a lot of money in that system already and he doesn’t even like the sound. Triple yes. 

given that the vast majority of the sound of a system is determined by the speakers, if the OP “doesn’t even like the sound”, then perhaps he should look at changing his speakers (the fact that there is a lot of money in the system is all well and good but imho it’s not a good enough reason not to make a change). 
At the very least he should (imho) address the issue where it will make most difference - at the speakers themselves. Apply some EQ or maybe don’t toe-in the speakers. 
 

 

[POV]

4 hours ago, DanFi said:

Yes. Since it’s a bright issue and he has already changed amps. Double yes. 
 

plus there is a lot of money in that system already and he doesn’t even like the sound. Triple yes. 

 

 

The speaker room interface has by far the biggest impact on sound, this is unquestionable, and any suggestions to the contrary are simply wrong. In this case the OP has objectively measured bright speakers, and has not given us an insight into his room.  
 

Adding a dedicated power circuit has some advantages, but these relate to reducing the noise floor which can moderately improve micro dynamics and detail.  This is is not however going to deal with a system that sounds overly bright to the listener.

 

@Richard can you please provide some more details about your room, possibly post some pictures.

 

 

 

Edited July 18, 2021 by POV

[rantan]

4 hours ago, DanFi said:

 

plus there is a lot of money in that system already and he doesn’t even like the sound.

 

The curse of  the audiophile journey and the DNA of  market driven disappointment.

Edited July 18, 2021 by rantan

[DanFi]

I can put it a different way. 
 

all the suggestions I made and have done myself should be something to do regardless. 
 

No matter the system it will improve it a lot. 
 

as I said it’s hard to take this advice and I rekon you’ll just buy more gear trying to fix the issue. 

[a.dent]

On 7/18/2021 at 7:37 AM, DanFi said:

In order of priority of importance in fixing a system, whether it fixing brightness or just improvements 

 

1. power/room

2. cables 

3. isolation

4. Source

5.

6.

7.

8. 

9. Amp/speakers. 

first things. Fix your power. Cables. New circuit. Maybe filter board. 
 

It’s actually surprising how cheap it is to run a new circuit in a house. This is number one. It does depend on your home but look at this. 700 for me to get a new circuit. Biggest change ever. 
 

then power cables. All in an effort to reduce noise. Then work your way down. 

I also got rid of the remaining brightness in my system by isolating my speakers and amplifier with pucks. 
 

I know the advice above is hard to accept because you are not throwing large amounts of money at brand name amps and speakers but at some point you will understand it starts with power. 

 

 

I’d change the order to

1. Room

2. Speakers

3. Amplifier

4. Source

5. Cables

6. Isolation

7.

8.

9.

10. Power 

 

The first thing I’d do is try some room treatment to absorb some of that high frequency energy.

 

[sir sanders zingmore]

On 7/15/2021 at 9:18 AM, Richard said:

If I get any updatets on sound I will make a post to let you all know !!

Any updates to report?

[TonyW]

I’ve got the same speakers and I think you might start with the benchmark dac to address this issue. I had the benchmark dac 1, yes it’s known to be a bit bright and bass shy. With either of my chord DACs no issue. I’ve also heard the better denefrips DACs with no issue re brightness. 
 

certainly worth borrowing a warmer sounding dac for comparison. Sadly I can suggest some really warm DACs I have Fostex, Seinheisser, just to name two but neither would give you the resolution those speakers are capable of. I’m sure others will have more experience with suggestions for excellent warmer DACs.

 

good luck, it will be worth it for sure!

 

tony

[Gordon Macfarlane]

On 7/8/2021 at 9:55 PM, sir sanders zingmore said:

Speakers have a bit of a boost in frequency response around 10kHz. This may sound bright. 
https://www.stereophile.com/content/bowers-wilkins-802-d3-diamond-loudspeaker-measurements

Also, not sure if this is relevant but the B&Ws drop to 3ohms. I believe the Michis are not recommended for speakers below 4 ohms 

 

Michi's should be fine on 3 ohms. Most of the higher B and W speakers have a lifted treble response designed in from what I have read and heard through listening to various B AND W'S.

I think it was user Art Dudley? that  redesigned his 802 crossovers to give a flatter hf response.

[THOMO]

Change the resistors on the tweeter crossover to a higher value.

[sir sanders zingmore]

24 minutes ago, Ozcall said:

Michi's should be fine on 3 ohms.

 

 

Except that that they specifically say that they aren't fine on sub 4 ohms

 

Quote

 

 

Most of the higher B and W speakers have a lifted treble response designed in from what I have read and heard through listening to various B AND W'S.

 

 

Yes. That's evidenced by the measurements I linked.

The OP doesn't like this lifted treble and that's exactly the reason why I suggested looking at doing something at the speakers end of the system (certainly a long way before looking at cables or power …)

 

 

[petetherock]

I used the x5 with no issues with my dynaudio speakers .. which although rated at 4ohms, do drop below that

the rotels were barely ticking over  

[tripitaka]

I remember when I found my system unbearably 'bright' years ago I contemplated all the same advice as you have been given above (much of which is sensible, but some which is less helpful IMO).  In my particular case, it turned out to be a combination of lack of mid-bass (fixed by a shelf increase below 800Hz, subby adjustments and reduction of room nodes at 30 and 60 Hz), together with lack of resolution which made sibilance unbearable to my ears and which I remedied with a better digital front-end.
In other words, the problem wasn't what I imagined it to be.
In any case, good luck
 

Edited July 21, 2021 by tripitaka

[Gordon Macfarlane]

17 hours ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

 

Except that that they specifically say that they aren't fine on sub 4 ohms

 

 

Yes. That's evidenced by the measurements I linked.

The OP doesn't like this lifted treble and that's exactly the reason why I suggested looking at doing something at the speakers end of the system (certainly a long way before looking at cables or power …)

 

 

Better tell that to my Michi that has been running Gale 401's ,B&w 703s and Ar91's all with a sub 4 ohm impedance , sucessfully for years.

Now I am not a tech but if you look at the design of all the Michi power amps , old and new, they have 2 power transformers of over a kilo watt per chn and massive capacitor banks. Reading through the Michi S5 power amp manual it recommends using speakers with an impedance between 4 and 8 OHMS but doesn't specifically say that they won't drive 3 ohm speakers.The new amps even have fans to help maintain internal temps.

 

"Speaker Selection We recommend using loudspeakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms or higher with the amplifier. The dual output binding posts are ideal for bi-wire installations allowing 2 pairs of wires to drive the HF and LF speakers each with individual wires from the left or right channel of the amplifier. Speaker impedance ratings are less than precise so use care when selecting the loudspeakers to attach to the amplifier. In practice, very few loudspeakers will present any problems for the amplifier"

 

Here is the Stereophile review of the power amps : https://www.stereophile.com/content/rotel-michi-m8-monoblock-power-amplifier

Have a look at the speakers being used and their specs and read JA's comments on the measurements.

 

 

Edited July 22, 2021 by Ozcall

[Steve M]

On 7/15/2021 at 7:18 AM, Richard said:

Hello to All !!

 

 

Onec again thank you for all comments... one of the problem is new ubs cable in my sustem from computer to dac, I have jumped form audioquest carbon to audioquest usb diamond (silver inside), it sound better but must make some frequencies that drive me mad and make my ears tired very quick, I am just wondering and never heard before how tube preamp will sound in my system, I am just wondering about mcintosh c2700, I need to find the way to get one and have a listen...

 

thank you again !

If I get any updatets on sound I will make a post to let you all know !!

Hello Richard,

 

It is difficult to believe that your problem was resolved with swapping out a USB cable? In my experience USB cables make the least difference in terms of cabling effects, I have a few good ones too including Curious and Oyaide Continental 5S USB cable. Speaker cables and interconnects (in that order) make more of a difference when tuning your system via cable matching.

 

B&W 802’s are quite neutral sounding to me and stay composed at high levels, like many well engineered loudspeakers. I suspect with such a nice audio system, you have been listening to it too much and concentrating on the minutiae and getting fatigued? Maybe give it a rest and come back to it a week later with fresh ears - always does the trick for me.

 

Cheers,

 

Steve.

[sir sanders zingmore]

16 minutes ago, Steve M said:

It is difficult to believe that your problem was resolved with swapping out a USB cable?

It’s hard to know where the OP ended up on this. He seems to watch the thread closely but almost never updates us

[sir sanders zingmore]

50 minutes ago, Ozcall said:

Better tell that to my Michi that has been running Gale 401's ,B&w 703s and Ar91's all with a sub 4 ohm impedance , sucessfully for years.

Now I am not a tech but if you look at the design of all the Michi power amps , old and new, they have 2 power transformers of over a kilo watt per chn and massive capacitor banks. Reading through the Michi S5 power amp manual it recommends using speakers with an impedance between 4 and 8 OHMS but doesn't specifically say that they won't drive 3 ohm speakers.The new amps even have fans to help maintain internal temps.

 

"Speaker Selection We recommend using loudspeakers with a nominal impedance of 4 ohms or higher with the amplifier. The dual output binding posts are ideal for bi-wire installations allowing 2 pairs of wires to drive the HF and LF speakers each with individual wires from the left or right channel of the amplifier. Speaker impedance ratings are less than precise so use care when selecting the loudspeakers to attach to the amplifier. In practice, very few loudspeakers will present any problems for the amplifier"

 

Here is the Stereophile review of the power amps : https://www.stereophile.com/content/rotel-michi-m8-monoblock-power-amplifier

Have a look at the speakers being used and their specs and read JA's comments on the measurements.

 

 

I’m not even sure what “won’t drive speakers” means? 
I have zero doubt that the amps will produce sound when driving 3 ohm speakers. 
All I’m trying to say is that if you want the best sound from a hard to drive speaker you should drive it with an amp that is designed to drive hard to drive speakers. 
 

In any event, I think that’s a red herring in this case. As are DACs, cables and power conditioning. 
But if the OP has fixed a peaky speaker response with USB cables who am I to argue?

[Gordon Macfarlane]

IF you read JA's meaurement report he suggest that the amp will have no problem driving low loads but it may draw to much current from the wall and flip the breaker in the houses power panel. The speakers used to test the amps have very low impedance minima (1.5-2.5 ohms) but the amp drove them with aplomb.

So I agree , it is a red herring in this case.

Perspnally I think it is the loudspeakrs hrfresponse causing the problem the problem allied torather clinical sounding dac.

[POV]

34 minutes ago, Steve M said:

 

It is difficult to believe that your problem was resolved with swapping out a USB cable? In my experience USB cables make the least difference in terms of cabling effects, I have a few good ones too including Curious and Oyaide Continental 5S USB cable. Speaker cables and interconnects (in that order) make more of a difference when tuning your system via cable matching.

 

Absolutely correct.  USB cables are in my experience impossible to tell apart.  I've done a heap of blind tests on cabling over the last few years and we did USB cables early last year.   Was in the uk tried 3 different tiers £1000, £500, £100 compared against the cable supplied with my DAC.  Literally no-one present could reliably pick a difference between any of them.  I have also extensively trialled USB cables in my head-fi system leaving them there for extended period and again not been able to discern a difference under any conditions.  The concept of 'tuning' a system with USB cables exists, I'm afraid only in peoples heads...

[sir sanders zingmore]

1 hour ago, Ozcall said:

IF you read JA's meaurement report he suggest that the amp will have no problem driving low loads but it may draw to much current from the wall and flip the breaker in the houses power panel. The speakers used to test the amps have very low impedance minima (1.5-2.5 ohms) but the amp drove them with aplomb.

So I agree , it is a red herring in this case.

Perspnally I think it is the loudspeakrs hrfresponse causing the problem the problem allied torather clinical sounding dac.

If JA had measured into lower loads he would have seen what hifinews found which is that the (dynamic) power drops as the load goes below 4 ohms. 
is this a “high current” amp? Not sure really. 
 

Dynamic power (<1% THD, 8/4/2/1ohm)

1640W / 3130W / 

1790W / 960W / 

 

https://www.hifinews.com/content/rotel-michi-m8-mono-power-ampiifier-lab-report

[Gordon Macfarlane]

41 minutes ago, sir sanders zingmore said:

If JA had measured into lower loads he would have seen what hifinews found which is that the (dynamic) power drops as the load goes below 4 ohms. 
is this a “high current” amp? Not sure really. 
 

Dynamic power (<1% THD, 8/4/2/1ohm)

1640W / 3130W / 

1790W / 960W / 

 

https://www.hifinews.com/content/rotel-michi-m8-mono-power-ampiifier-lab-report

Yes but there is still more than enough power at the 4and 2ohm ratings to drive the 802's beyond their limits (2.46 KW@3 OHMS with distortion way below 0.1%)) ie it is not a factor in the issue under discussion as far as I understand these things.

Edited July 22, 2021 by Ozcall