Denon cartridges, thoughts, experiences etc

[Pops110]

Thought I would start a new thread instead of clogging up some of the other threads with talk of Denon carts.

I have recently acquired and set up a DL 304 and have been blown away with it. Has ticked all of the boxes that I’m looking for so very happy with the purchase. I have just bought a new phono stage as well so not sure if that’s the main contributor to the jump in sound quality, synergy between the 2 or that it really does sound very good.

The phono stage is the Sutherland Insight LPS and I have the 304 loaded at 200 ohms which may not be ideal I’m lead to believe so will try loading at 1k ohms over the weekend and report back.

Would love to hear others thoughts and experiences and also comparisons between other models of Denon’s.

Cheers .

[Pops110]

I had a few people ask me the differences between Denon carts but unfortunately I wouldn’t have a clue.

Hopefully some others can chime in if they have compared various models of Denons, also what phono stages and loading was used also would be great.

[hugo_wilco]

@Pops110 I have had two Denons over the years. A DL103 and a DL103r. I much prefer the 103. I know they get maligned but they really are a no b_____t musical cartridge. I have had some cartridges that cost 10 times as much but I always seem to go back to the DL103 and listen to music and not “Hi-Fi”. 
 

I remember seeing a YouTube video of Schroeder tonearms and they asked what’s his favourite cartridge, he laughed and said the 103 he also says he never loses sleep if the cleaning lady breaks it! 

[crtexcnndrm99]

Whenever I see the old articles from MJ Audio and similar Japanese audio magazines, with their Western Electric or tri-amped custom JBLs etc and they’re rocking a 103 I figure one could be content with this cart. 
 

I’ve been using the DL301mkii for some time and have had no complaints. Very good with surface noise. Beside the Technics EPC-205’s I will probably add the 103 next. One channel appears to be intermittent on the 301, so that may be sooner rather than later  
 

Hearing some experiences with the Dl-S1 would certainly be interesting though. 
 

In all, a big Denon cart fan. The only disagreement I have with Denon is was the recent anniversary 103. 

[andyr]

17 hours ago, Pops110 said:

 

The phono stage is the Sutherland Insight LPS and I have the 304 loaded at 200 ohms which may not be ideal I’m lead to believe so will try loading at 1k ohms over the weekend and report back.

 

 

The VE cart db gives the DL-304 as having a 40ohm coil impedance.  As such, I would say the optimal loading would be anywhere between 470 ohms and 4700 ohms (standard res values).

 

What other loading options does your Sutherland Insight LPS offer ... apart from 200 ohms and 1K ohms?

EDIT: I looked up the Sutherland Insight LPS, I see other options are 10k and 47k.  So I would recommend trying 10k as well as 1k loading.

However, I also see that max gain is 60dB (the standard MC phono stage gain) - which I suggest is lower than what you really need with a 0.18mV cart.  66dB - 68dB would be ideal.  

 

Andy

 

Edited June 29, 2021 by andyr

[Pops110]

24 minutes ago, andyr said:

 

The VE cart db gives the DL-304 as having a 40ohm coil impedance.  As such, I would say the optimal loading would be anywhere between 470 ohms and 4700 ohms (standard res values).

 

What other loading options does your Sutherland Insight LPS offer ... apart from 200 ohms and 1K ohms?

EDIT: I looked up the Sutherland Insight LPS, I see other options are 10k and 47k.  So I would recommend trying 10k as well as 1k loading.

However, I also see that max gain is 60dB (the standard MC phono stage gain) - which I suggest is lower than what you really need with a 0.18mV cart.  66dB - 68dB would be ideal.  

 

Andy

 

I have a bit of a gain issue between my pre and power amp, not a lot of play on the volume before it’s too loud.

So having the gain of the Sutherland at 60db seems perfect, got a lot more usable increments for volume.

I will try 1k and 10k this weekend and see how I like it.

[stevoz]

Like a lot of MM cart owners who might want to dip their toes in the MC pool, I got a DL103 a number of years back due to it's silly affordability and I loved it. Who knew a spherical tip could sound so good? It's very musical and not shy at all....I like these attributes. Great with rock music. I did say "loved" as it doesn't get a lot of use these days since my two Grace Level II's came along. With these beauties there is no real need for an MC anymore but I will certainly be running the DL103 again one day.

[Pops110]

1 hour ago, crtexcnndrm99 said:

Whenever I see the old articles from MJ Audio and similar Japanese audio magazines, with their Western Electric or tri-amped custom JBLs etc and they’re rocking a 103 I figure one could be content with this cart. 
 

I’ve been using the DL301mkii for some time and have had no complaints. Very good with surface noise. Beside the Technics EPC-205’s I will probably add the 103 next. One channel appears to be intermittent on the 301, so that may be sooner rather than later  
 

Hearing some experiences with the Dl-S1 would certainly be interesting though. 
 

In all, a big Denon cart fan. The only disagreement I have with Denon is was the recent anniversary 103. 

Not sure if this would be help. Found it while researching the 304.

 

https://www.audiocircle.com/index.php?topic=98674.0

[andyr]

37 minutes ago, Pops110 said:

 

I will try 1k and 10k this weekend and see how I like it.

 

 

I look forward to hearing your impressions of the sound with the different loadings.  

 

Andy

 

[Pops110]

1 hour ago, hugo_wilco said:

@Pops110 I have had two Denons over the years. A DL103 and a DL103r. I much prefer the 103. I know they get maligned but they really are a no b_____t musical cartridge. I have had some cartridges that cost 10 times as much but I always seem to go back to the DL103 and listen to music and not “Hi-Fi”. 
 

I remember seeing a YouTube video of Schroeder tonearms and they asked what’s his favourite cartridge, he laughed and said the 103 he also says he never loses sleep if the cleaning lady breaks it! 

Thanks mate, I am fairly new to this as you know but the Denon’s seem like stupidly good value for money.

The Schroder arms look amazing and are stupidly expensive, if the 103 is good enough for him they must be fairly decent. I’m assuming he’s heard some fairly top end cartridges. 
Im sitting here listening to The Chemical Brothers at the moment with a big old stupid grin on my face.

[Cammyboy0_0]

Hi,

I have owned a Denon 103 R, and would probably still have it if I hadn't had an accident bringing my turntable back from an arm upgrade....

 

I now have an AT ART9 which is probably 2-3X the price and it is better but showed me how good the Denon already was - I would have another in a heartbeat. Simply silly good for the money.

 

Someone made the comment that they sound musical (ie what real music sounds like) and not like hi fi - I agree with this 100% and this is its greatest strength.

 

cheers

Cameron

[Jebediah]

I'm currently running one of Duc's wooden bodied 103R's on a Denon DP75 with DA307 tonearm. I've been in discussion with Cafe Latte about replacing the cantilever and stylus once the original has worn out. Sounds like its a very worthwhile exercise and am looking forward to being able to do this upgrade. 

[Pops110]

13 minutes ago, Jebediah said:

I'm currently running one of Duc's wooden bodied 103R's on a Denon DP75 with DA307 tonearm. I've been in discussion with Cafe Latte about replacing the cantilever and stylus once the original has worn out. Sounds like its a very worthwhile exercise and am looking forward to being able to do this upgrade. 

I will be sending the 304 off to Chris for a retip as well when it needs it. Have just sent my Kiseki Blue off so will be interesting to compare when that gets back.

Edited June 29, 2021 by Pops110

[Jebediah]

2 minutes ago, Pops110 said:

I will be sending the 304 off to Chris for a retip as well when it needs it. Have just sent my Kiseki Blue off so will be interesting to compare when that gets back.

(Sorry, half asleep with raging hayfever, I forgot to mention retip will be boron cantilever with nude micro ridge stylus.)

 

 

[graham121]

38 minutes ago, Jebediah said:

(Sorry, half asleep with raging hayfever, I forgot to mention retip will be boron cantilever with nude micro ridge stylus.)

 

 

Just had my DL-160 retipped by Chris with the above combination, very tasty indeed.

[Pops110]

Good to hear that your happy with it. Did you find it was a pretty decent jump in performance?

[graham121]

51 minutes ago, Pops110 said:

Good to hear that your happy with it. Did you find it was a pretty decent jump in performance?

I have found my comment, pasted below, from a couple of days after getting the cartridge back, and I am still as enamoured.

 

“I was expecting a bit of an improvement but certainly not as much as this; whilst maintaining the overall sound characteristics it is now so much more dynamic, the bass is tighter and faster, soundstage is deeper, vocals are more defined and percussion is more refined with the whole presentation being a much more immersive and involving experience.”

 

[crtexcnndrm99]

Hmm I may have to get in touch re the 301. The gold body does match oh so well with the headshell. Maybe Chris could work some magic or see what the matter is / if any

[stevoz]

21 hours ago, Jebediah said:

(Sorry, half asleep with raging hayfever, I forgot to mention retip will be boron cantilever with nude micro ridge stylus.)

 

 

 

I've said it before and I'll say it again.....IMO, boron and micro-ridge are a match made in sonic heaven.

[Batty]

I had a 103 retipped by Soundsmith with a ruby cantilever and their top stylus at the time (about 8 years ago).

I thought the retip had the same 'house' sound but with more detail.

I then part exchanged it for a VdH DDT-II special, never looked back.

I have also had the DL110 on a couple of occasions, the first being 1986, it came already fitted to the RB250 that was on my Rock II, I liked it so much I bought another in the early 2000's to try it again, which is what led me to the 103.

 

I forgot to add that I also fitted an aluminium body to the 103.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Batty

[Willmax]

On 29/06/2021 at 8:28 PM, graham121 said:

Just had my DL-160 retipped by Chris with the above combination, very tasty indeed.

I love my DL-160, it's a good all rounder that seems to sound right from top to bottom. 

It seems like it was a very successful cart by all accounts, it is hard to understand why Denon chose to take it out of production years ago. 

 

The DL-110 in my setup seems to have a very forward midrange to the point of being a bit too much in your face kind of presentation in comparison.

[Pops110]

Does anyone have any idea of how the carts are numbered?
Is the 1xx lower down the line than say the 3xx models?

Is there certain TOTL models to keep an eye out for?

[crtexcnndrm99]

8 hours ago, Pops110 said:

Does anyone have any idea of how the carts are numbered?
Is the 1xx lower down the line than say the 3xx models?

Is there certain TOTL models to keep an eye out for?

I could be wrong, but my understanding is the DL-S1 was the TOTL to

look out for. There were similar steps in the SUTs, so if you’re after one of those then the one matching the DL-S1 would also be the TOTL  

[MattyW]

I think the best sounding Denon I ever ran were a standard 103 potted in a  Stanley Engineering mahogany body, with a new hardened aluminium hollow cantilever + micro scanner II tip. I also prefer the regular 103 over the 103R and they're quite rewarding to mod. The next best I'd run was a 303 with shibata retip though that lacked the boogie factor of the 103.

[Sabercat]

I just recently put a DL-110 onto my new Pro-Ject X1, feeding into a Rega Elex-R phono input. This thing is amazing; it's a "High Output" MC, which can be fed into an MM phono stage, and I was dubious about that, but really the levels are absolutely fine - and the resolution, imaging and bass quality are all fantastic.

 

I've come from an Ortofon 2M Blue and was worried the Denon would fall short - but it's a tier above in terms of overall musicality to my ears - and a good fit with my amp. These cartridges are a bargain (though sadly not as much as they apparently were a few years back)......well worth a try. Note they are very light however, so you need to watch the arm combo...mine works fine on the Pro-Ject but I really needed the (included) headshell weight plate or I think I'd have had issues. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Sabercat