glennb Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 Hi All, Did a search in various forums and couldn't find much on this, although i'm sure others have experienced it to. I'm making efforts to improve my desktop audio setup for headphones, both for music and gaming on the PC, and have picked up a couple of items from the Classifieds to try, including an iFi Nano iDSD Black Label DAC/Amp, and a Schiit Asgard 2 HP Amp. The problem is, that my main PC is sending large amounts of static, buzzing, and crackling through to either system, including hearing a screeching noise when moving the mouse around. Using an analogue out to the Schiit Asgard is pretty terrible as expected, but running USB to the iFi Nano, then 3.5mm to RCA to the Asgard doesn't filter any of it out either. Oddly, though, running the iFi Nano on it's own and using its HP out does reduce background noise to very good levels. So would seem there is some filtering going in there somewhere. I've confirmed it's not cable related as using USB from my phone or laptop is whisper quiet, with all the same cables. Would a DAC with an Optical input remove all EM noise from the PC source? I was originally eyeing off the new Schiit HEL 2 DAC/Amps which has this option when they become available. Otherwise I can stick with the iFi Nano (which is quite good), and move the Asgard 2 on (although it definitely improves things). Any other options that don't require a large outlay of cash to fix this? Cheers, Glenn.
Luc Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 Hope someone can supply a fix for because to the best of my knowledge there isn't one. I've had the moving of the mouse noise and the hdd whirring noises for years and years. New PC build recently with SSD helped a lot, no fan noise coming through speakers either when they cut in which is a rare event on this build. Only time I've read of someone beating it(mostly) is with a new dedicated soundcard in your PC.(not cheap) Other solution which has worked for me is a pair of active speakers with their own built in DAC and they plug straight into to your audio out via rca plug...absolute silence(credit card sized remote adjusts volume). Those speakers have been commandeered by the wife for her laptop in her office.
Niktech Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 II’ve been using one of these devices for a few years, amongst others, to clean up the USB signal of my audio pc. https://www.sbooster.com/sbooster-tweaks/vbus2-isolator/ The caveat is that 5v power supply is effectively cut off.
Niktech Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 (edited) I also use an IFi Groundhog (grounding adaptor) which is connected to an unused input on my headphone amp. Edited June 27, 2021 by Niktech Correcting autocorrect
glennb Posted June 27, 2021 Author Posted June 27, 2021 Thanks guys. @Niktech thanks for the info, but that's 2 more pieces of gear to add! The iFi Nano can actually operate on battery power alone, and only use the USB cable for the audio, but this still didn't remove the noise in the signal. iFi also have a few USB cleaner solutions (Micro iUSB3.0, Nano iGalvanic, iPurifier) and Schiit have their Wyrd USB DeCrapifier, but that's just more equipment. If someone could confirm that using an optical cable connection to a suitable DAC/Amp input, then this would be my next upgrade path?
Nada Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 Optical TOSLINK will isolate your DAC from your PC. That can be expected to stop the current noise from your DAC, if its powered without grounding, exposing it to high PC USB bus noise when wired to an external headamp. You will need a DAC that does good internal jitter rejection when using TOSLINK. Does your PC have optical out?
Luc Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 If you've got time(and haven't done it already) then do a search on this because there have been a lot of threads over the years about it. @davewantsmoore has answered a few queries about it. Noise from a DAC isolated via Toslink @Nada will that help with the noise of the mouse 4 hours ago, glennb said: including hearing a screeching noise when moving the mouse around. ?
Niktech Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 26 minutes ago, glennb said: Thanks guys. @Niktech thanks for the info, but that's 2 more pieces of gear to add! The iFi Nano can actually operate on battery power alone, and only use the USB cable for the audio, but this still didn't remove the noise in the signal. iFi also have a few USB cleaner solutions (Micro iUSB3.0, Nano iGalvanic, iPurifier) and Schiit have their Wyrd USB DeCrapifier, but that's just more equipment. If someone could confirm that using an optical cable connection to a suitable DAC/Amp input, then this would be my next upgrade path? No worries. I didn’t realise you wouldn’t be playing DSD files.
davewantsmoore Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 6 hours ago, glennb said: Hi All, Did a search in various forums and couldn't find much on this, although i'm sure others have experienced it to. I'm making efforts to improve my desktop audio setup for headphones, both for music and gaming on the PC, and have picked up a couple of items from the Classifieds to try, including an iFi Nano iDSD Black Label DAC/Amp, and a Schiit Asgard 2 HP Amp. The problem is, that my main PC is sending large amounts of static, buzzing, and crackling through to either system, including hearing a screeching noise when moving the mouse around. This is a usb adio driver / computer configuration issue .... and no amount of cables, cleaners or external devices will change it. Either USB devices or your graphics card is "sharing" resources with your USB audio device, and causing the issue. You say it's when the mouse moves. Try moving a window around on the screen (forcing the graphics to redraw things on the screen) .... does this make the noise "worse" than just if you moved the mouse (cursor)? That can give you an idea if the issue is linked to the mouse itself... or if it's a graphics/video card issue. Aside from actually tracking it down.... other things to try are: Trying a different USB port for the USB audio. Reinstalling the drivers for the USB audio device. Unplugging any and every unnecessary thing on the computer .... so see if any make the noise stop. 6 hours ago, glennb said: Would a DAC with an Optical input remove all EM noise from the PC source? Yes... but that isn't the problem you're having. Note: changing DAC will make this problem go away... bit it isn't "EM noise", or any such thing. It's a misconfiguration with your current USB audio device.
davewantsmoore Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Nada said: Optical TOSLINK will isolate your DAC from your PC. That can be expected to stop the current noise from your DAC Yes... but only becuase he will not be using USB any more 1 hour ago, Nada said: if its powered without grounding, exposing it to high PC USB bus noise Mythology. The issue is that the USB communication is being interrupted by the computer talking to other devices..... it's nothing to do with noise or grounding, etc.
Nada Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 7 hours ago, glennb said: The problem is, that my main PC is sending large amounts of static, buzzing, and crackling through to either system Can I just check Ive understood this issue. Sorry to be pedantic but this kind of problem solving is kind of fun but relies on details. Does that static buzzing noise happen even when your not using the PC for anything other then music? Is that noise independent of using the mouse or any other USB devices? Does that noise go out both the PC analogue out to the headamp and the PC digital via USB to the DAC to the headamp? 7 hours ago, glennb said: Oddly, though, running the iFi Nano on it's own and using its HP out does reduce background noise to very good levels. Is that noise reduction happening with the Asgard headamp connected or disconnected? If its with no onward wired connection out of the Nano to the headamp that implicates a USB grounding issues that is set up plugging the DAC into the grounded external Headamp. Can you try this. 1. Listen to the Nano via PC USB using its headphone out and not connected to the Asgard headamp ie pull the audio cable out. Listen to silence with volume at max and minimum, listen to a track, try using the mouse and then try listening to a video. Make notes of the noise levels. 2. Connect the headamp to the Nano with the headamp switched OFF but plugged in all ready to go. Listen exactly like Step 1 above. Any changes? Marked worsening in 2. can be expected if there are ground loops with PC electrical noise output increased with a path to ground via the headamp. Do you have optical out of your PC? Do you have nil noise plugging your headphones into your PC? Do you have noise plugging your headamp into the same PC headphone out? If yes to all of these you may benefit getting a DAC with TOSLINK. But only if the PC optical out is good and only if the DAC has great TOSLINK jitter control. TOSLINK tends to have high jitter. Do your research on TOSLIK jitter. DS DACs need low jitter. Affordable DACs are mostly DS. Some may have low jitter on TOSLINK using reclocking but some will be awful
LogicprObe Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 We need to know more about your PC and soundcard.
Luc Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 Soundcard. @LogicprObe yes, mentioned a dedicated soundcard earlier as opposed to your usual graphics card
LogicprObe Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 1 hour ago, Luc said: Soundcard. @LogicprObe yes, mentioned a dedicated soundcard earlier as opposed to your usual graphics card Sorry............I was listening to the footy and not paying 100% attention..............now it's even worse that I'm pissed! 1 1
glennb Posted June 27, 2021 Author Posted June 27, 2021 Ok, so a lot of questions and will have to get back to some of them tomorrow. First up though, when i try searching, i get no results and a message saying the forum is still indexing. Seems weird and nothing about it in site discussion forum so maybe it's just me? Didn't think this would be a new problem. PC specs: MSI Z390M mobo, i5-9600k overclocked, 32GB Ram, 6900XT. It's a games machine after all No dedicated soundcard, but i do have the TOSLINK output, and an AVR that i can test this theory on if i get an optical cable for it. Static/hiss/clicking is present using the Asgard Amp, either with the Nano in-between (PC-USB-Nano-3.5mm RCA-Asgard-HP), or with a direct connection from PC to amp (PC-3.5mm RCA-Asgard-HP). It's not detectable with HP straight to PC audio out and volume maxed, and only very faint with HPs connected to Nano with volume at Max and believe this is normal (ie, doesn't change with mouse or anything windows related). Not touching the PC but Asgard to max volume, there is quite a lot of static, hissing, and clicking, moving the mouse makes it worse, and as suggested, moving a window around to make the GPU work makes it worse again with a white noise coming through. All powered equipment is plugged into a Thor surge protected powerboard. Given the Nano is unpowered other than the USB, it could well be an earth loop issue that the Asgard introduces as the return path. But will go through the process of disconnecting as much as possible from the PC and see if that changes anything. Otherwise, going to a DAC/AMP combo that has the TOSLINK input would sound like the easiest option so far. Thanks for all the input so far. cheers Glenn.
rocky500 Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 (edited) I am wondering if buying a new Internal USB card might fix the problem? Something like one of these? https://www.amazon.com.au/gp/product/B07TY3RTQS/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_asin_title_o01_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1 I think there are cheaper ones on ebay, but It seems the above is quite a good one. Also could try your local computer shop to see what there worth. Edited June 27, 2021 by rocky500
Niktech Posted June 27, 2021 Posted June 27, 2021 As a side note. In my case, I could hear static/white noise in my headphones by tapping my finger on the unplugged USB port on the audio pc at the other end of the playback chain (Surface Pro 1 x USB port). Solved with DAC firmware upgrade and IFi Groundhog plugged into amp. My playback chain can be seen in ‘About Me’ in the Profile section.
davewantsmoore Posted June 28, 2021 Posted June 28, 2021 14 hours ago, glennb said: but i do have the TOSLINK output, and an AVR that i can test this theory on if i get an optical cable for it. If you do this, the sound will be perfect.... because you are no longer using your onboard sound device, or your USB audio output. Your USB audio has a configuration issue (causing the sound which changes with activity, like mouse movement) .... your onboard sound device (analogue output) .... [sorry I didn't pick up that you were using/trying this earlier] .... either has some type of similar configuration issue to the USB (possible) ... or some type of grounding/noise issue between the computer and amp (more likely). 14 hours ago, glennb said: Not touching the PC but Asgard to max volume, there is quite a lot of static, hissing, and clicking, moving the mouse makes it worse, and as suggested, moving a window around to make the GPU work makes it worse again with a white noise coming through. Your audio device is sharing resrouces/interrupts with your GPU. 14 hours ago, glennb said: Given the Nano is unpowered other than the USB, it could well be an earth loop issue that the Asgard introduces as the return path. It isn't. See above. 14 hours ago, glennb said: Otherwise, going to a DAC/AMP combo that has the TOSLINK input would sound like the easiest option so far. The USB / GPU conflict is a problem you can solve.... it is a common issue. Uninstall and reinstall the AMD drivers. Try different USB port(s). Disable any unneeded things in your BIOS, reassign IRQs in your BIOS if you have that option available. You could get some more inspiration here: https://lmgtfy.app/?q=usb+audio+conflict+with+GPU Getting the analogue output (not recommended) working better? Make sure PC and amp are on same power socket..... although the best you can get it may not be very good.
davewantsmoore Posted June 28, 2021 Posted June 28, 2021 14 hours ago, rocky500 said: I am wondering if buying a new Internal USB card might fix the problem? It might..... simply because the new USB ports might be allocated resources which are not in conflict with the GPU .... but that will just be "dumb luck".
Nada Posted June 28, 2021 Posted June 28, 2021 21 hours ago, glennb said: Static/hiss/clicking is present using the Asgard Amp, either with the Nano in-between (PC-USB-Nano-3.5mm RCA-Asgard-HP), or with a direct connection from PC to amp (PC-3.5mm RCA-Asgard-HP). It's not detectable with HP straight to PC audio out and volume maxed, and only very faint with HPs connected to Nano with volume at Max and believe this is normal (ie, doesn't change with mouse or anything windows related). Having the issue of noise out of the analogue and digital with the Asgard connected from your PC when not doing other duties strongly suggests the issue is latent in the PC electrical noise floor. Good luck eliminating that with software configuration but its a brilliant idea trying. It will cost you nothing but time and frustration and if it works your sorted. If the hypothesis of a high inherent PC noise is entertained, it comes with certain predictions and some are already confirmed eg HP direct is noise free. Next to test is HP from the Nano are low noise until the analogue cable to the plugged in but turned off Asgard is connected. Another predication is Software/USB driver/USB-PCI changes will make little change to the background noise. The last is optical out to a powered DAC plugged into the common power will be noise free. Id suggest seeing if there is a Topping DAC via a WTB on this forum with TOSLINK in and power in as 1. Topping seem to often address jitter suppression well 2. External power allows common ground 3. Used is good for recycling, the planet and your finances and I expect some SNA members have a Topping sitting in its box needing a home Can you do test this predication please - HP from the Nano are low noise until the analogue cable to the plugged in but turned off Asgard is connected.
glennb Posted June 28, 2021 Author Posted June 28, 2021 13 hours ago, Nada said: Can you do test this predication please - HP from the Nano are low noise until the analogue cable to the plugged in but turned off Asgard is connected. Hi Nada, Thanks for your input, and have just tested as you've asked above (i think). with HP directly into the Nano and nothing else connected other than the USB input from PC, the noise floor at max volume is virtually silent, even when moving windows etc. Plugging the 3.5mm RCA into the output of the Nano and connected to the Asgard made no difference to the HP output of the Nano, either with Asgard turned off or on, although i believe the 3.5mm jack then bypasses the HP out on the Nano anyway. Switching the HP to the Asgard being fed from the Nano, I get back to static/clicking/popping sounds. These are detectable at listening levels to, but only get worse when at max volume. Short term solution is to just use the Nano as a DAC/Amp, and I might see if I can find another home for the Asgard, and put the money towards the Schiit HEL 2 when it's available, as it has the TOSLINK input required to fix (ignore) this issue. Otherwise I'm likely to spend ages messing around with USB/PCI issues. cheers Glenn.
davewantsmoore Posted June 29, 2021 Posted June 29, 2021 17 minutes ago, glennb said: Switching the HP to the Asgard being fed from the Nano, I get back to static/clicking/popping sounds. These are detectable at listening levels to, but only get worse when at max volume. ... and do these sound "change" when doing things like moving a window around? If yes... then you have two things going on. You have a resource conflict between your USB port / USB audio device... and your GPU. This is very likely impacting the sound quality, even when you can't hear it obviously. And... then Asgard is amplifying the noise to audible (when the Nano itself isn't). Strange. I assume you're using the "direct" line out, on the back of the Nano!? 17 minutes ago, glennb said: Otherwise I'm likely to spend ages messing around with USB/PCI issues. If you hear "the noise" through the PC -> Nano -> Asgard ...... then you would be advised to look into fixing the noise even if you're going to be just using the Nano, as it's probably impacting SQ. 1
glennb Posted June 29, 2021 Author Posted June 29, 2021 3 minutes ago, davewantsmoore said: ... and do these sound "change" when doing things like moving a window around? And... then Asgard is amplifying the noise to audible (when the Nano itself isn't). Strange. I assume you're using the "direct" line out, on the back of the Nano!? Yes, additional sounds come into it when moving a window around on the desktop. Yes i thought it was strange to, but props to the iFi Nano for being a great little unit in this regard! And yes, the 'direct' line out from the Nano to any other amp passes the issue down the chain. I tested with an old Marantz stereo receiver using it's analogue inputs and have the same issue, so confirmed it wasn't the Asgard either. Will see what I can do to minimise it through USB plugs and bios settings and go from there. cheers Glenn.
davewantsmoore Posted June 29, 2021 Posted June 29, 2021 1 hour ago, glennb said: Yes i thought it was strange to, but props to the iFi Nano for being a great little unit in this regard! The ifi is the one making the noise. You just don't hear it so much in the ifi, due to how the gain (amplification) is being applied. In the ifi the noise is being turned down too. Does your asgard have a gain switch? Try it in high gain mode with the volume dial turned down low(er). ... but fixing the noise at the root is the best way, as odds on it will imprve SQ across the board.
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