Are vintage speakers just old technology?

[Davros59]

I'm thinking about "upgrading" my speakers. I am listening to vinyl through a set of relatively modern Jamo S-506. These have been ok for surround sound and digital music but I'm seriously considering stepping back in time and buying a set of vintage speakers.

 

Are vintage speakers just old technology or will they enhance my analogue listening experience? Obviously all speakers are analogue but are modern speakers designed differently to take advantage of modern amplifiers? Should a vintage amplifier be paired with vintage speakers?

 

next, my budget is around $500 so it's a very small upgrade. What's the best option? I have seen some Acoustic Research, Celestion Dittons  and Advents all around this price. Seems to me this is reasonable value. My dad has a set of Ditton 15's matched with a Technics amp and Sharp turntable which sound very nice to my ear. 

 

Or, should I stick with the Jamos for now until i can afford a decent (and real) upgrade? Would anyone consider these Jamos better than the options I've mentioned?

 

I am currently using a HK PM655 as a phono pre-amp into a Proton D540 as a main. Primarily this is because the HK is not a great amp but seems to have a decent phono stage and the pre-amp on the Proton is knackered.

 

 

[BATMAQN]

This might interest you not all about speakers but a great read.

 

http://stevem1960.blogspot.com/2011/09/steve-m-audio-system.html

[Davros59]

I enjoyed it and hated it.

 

I am not a beneficiary to the George Adams trust so all of that is a mere pipe dream for me. Plus I'm married and have a mortgage. Nice to dream though 

[BATMAQN]

I understand perfectly married with a mortgage and a hifi addiction are not easy but this is a hobby and not a cheap one you need to be willing to spend some dollars on certain parts of your system and speakers are usually high on the priority list of percentage money spent.

 

I'll admit that Steve's gear over the years is probably out of a lot of peoples budget but I thought it would help you understand that there is vintage gear out there worthy to spend your hard earned dollars on.

 

Do some research there is a lot of excellent vintage gear out there but some of it does need maintenance this is a hobby after all I get a lot of satisfaction fixing up old speakers (good old speakers)

[Steve M]

Hello Davros/Batmanqn,

 

Nah, I am not a rich guy. Just tried a lot of things in audio and moved them on (or kept them as a reference point if I really like  'em) ...

 

A lot of people on this forum talk about what option/system or technology they want to try out or go to eventually - however, I have actually tried to get there in some small way or measure within my expertise and funding ability. Not sure if this approach works, but I have had a lot of fun along the way!

 

With vintage speakers, they can be just as good if you choose carefully. A properly executed vintage speaker is just as good as anything modern in my experience.

 

 

Cheers,

 

 

Steve.

Edited January 10, 2013 by Steve M

[Newman]

You haven't said what your priorities are in going to vintage speakers.

 

Are you going for a 'vintage sound'?

 

Is there any thing that is most important to you in the way a speaker performs?

 

For your budget you are running a significant risk that you will acquire a vintage speaker that needs refurbishment straight after you get it home.

 

The other thing is, IMHO the best and most well-regarded vintage speakers are highly sought after and therefore effectively overpriced in pure performance terms. They are not really your best bang for your dollar. So I would suggest pursuing it, within the budget you have in mind, only if you are really after a special vintage type sound.

[Steve M]

Newman makes some good points there ... very good vintage speakers do come at a price.

 

The sort of things I am talking about are Quad ESL-57, Altec 604-8G, Tannoys 10/12/15", Goodmans Axiom 80, Lowther, Gale 401, Celestion 66, Yamaha NS1000 and LS3/5A etc ...all priced between $1-4K.

 

There are some lower priced gems though, eg, Spendor BC-1 @ $500 (fantastic voicing) and the Toshiba SS-30 @ $100-$1,200. The latter a rare beastie and would compete with anything up to $10K modern, if speed and freedom from box coloration is your mandate! That said, a new Lenehan ML-1 at $2.5K achieves all of that too, great little speaker.

 

Regards,

 

 

Steve.

Edited January 8, 2013 by Steve M

[LogicprObe]

As in all things audio.............it all depends what you like.

[BATMAQN]

Hi Steve

 

To be honest I have no idea of your financial situation and it isn't any of my business I actually admire what you have done and very much enjoyed reading about your adventures in hifi I was just responding to the ops comments about your blog.

 

I also have limited funds and do the best I can with what I have, I love the vintage gear probably because I lusted after it in my youth but could never afford it then I spent far too much money on modifying cars.

 

I wholeheartedly agree with your comment about vintage speakers properly executed being as good as their modern counterparts.

 

Cheers

 

Seb

[Tony M]

Hi Newman

 

I'm a bit of an enthusiast re vintage speakers.  But I've never sought a "vintage sound" as such - not sure if such a thing exists.  I just want the sound that most connects me to the music.

 

IMO, vintage speakers score very well on the performance vs price ratio and are relatively easy to sell on without incurring substantial losses.  I think the reason the best vintage speakers are so highly sought after is that they offer better sound overall than new speakers at their price.  Otherwise, I think it would make much more sense to buy new.

[LogicprObe]

That's right, Tony.

I just want what sounds good to me and my cheaparsed vintage Yamaha gear does just that!

[Steve M]

Tony and Logi hit the nail on the head ...that's what I seek too, musical involvement, money or not.

 

 

Steve.

[THOMO]

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/B-W-Freestanding-Loudspeakers-Pick-up-only-Warrandyte-3113-/251209864546?pt=AU_Hi_Fi_Speakers&hash=item3a7d465562

 

You could do a lot worse than these.

A well balanced and smooth sound and not too component or room fussy.

[Newman]

Hi Newman - I'm a bit of an enthusiast re vintage speakers.  But I've never sought a "vintage sound" as such - not sure if such a thing exists.  I just want the sound that most connects me to the music.

 

Hi Tony, are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? Not much point in buying vintage speakers if they don't sound different. After all, the vintage buyer is getting something old and worn and of unknown history and abuse: he wants it to sound different for his trouble. We are not talking about award winning refurbishments of ultra classics at 500 notes.

 

http://www.ebay.com.au/itm/B-W-Freestanding-Loudspeakers-Pick-up-only-Warrandyte-3113-/251209864546?pt=AU_Hi_Fi_Speakers&hash=item3a7d465562

 

You could do a lot worse than these.

A well balanced and smooth sound and not too component or room fussy.

 

See, I keep forgetting that things like mid-80's (like the above B&W DM220's) might be what the man wants and calls 'vintage'. See my current thread Vintage, Yeah to see how it bemuses me! 

Edited January 8, 2013 by Newman

[davewantsmoore]

Should a vintage amplifier be paired with vintage speakers?

 

No necessarily.    Generally this pairing comes from the fact that older speakers are often more efficient, and "vintage" amps are often designed with lower power output  (a good first watt).

 

 

 

 

"Will it be better"  ??

 

Better is always a cloudy thing to discuss.

 

I suggest that you try and define, at least vaguely in your head, what you would like to change about your current speakers, and then go from there.  Vintage may or may not be the solution.

[zog]

I used to be of the opinion older speakers not so great, but then was amazed hearing some 2nd hand Klipsch Cornwalls being demonstrated in a shop.

This is a design from 1959 (that has been under continual refinement).

 

I wish I had a pair of these.

[Tony M]

Yes, Zog, the Cornwall's are one of the more highly regarded Klipsch designs in general.  They seem to garner wider appreciation than the more idiosyncratic and polarizing members of the heritage series.  I'd quite like to hear a pair.

[Tony M]

Hi Tony, are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? Not much point in buying vintage speakers if they don't sound different. After all, the vintage buyer is getting something old and worn and of unknown history and abuse: he wants it to sound different for his trouble. We are not talking about award winning refurbishments of ultra classics at 500 notes.

Hi Newman

 

I delayed my reply to hopefully convey the impression I had put some thought into it.

 

Having my cake and eating it can only be good.    The only speakers I know that sound "vintage" as such are the big, warm and cuddly units that inhabit the oversized boxes that valve console radios came in during the first part of the 20th century.  Even my 1950 valve portable Zenith Transoceanic has a modern sound with none of the overblown upper bass/lower mid warmth of these units.

 

My vintage speakers have no sonic traits that I am aware of to identify them as such.  They are generally in excellent nick and have only the sonic signatures they were born with.  When I compare them to equivalent-priced modern speakers, they generally sound better to me in all the attributes that matter - it's really as simple as that.  Aesthetically, the Gale 401's, Yamaha NS1000M's, Rogers ls3/5a's and Klipsch Belles are all quite distinctive and can each look great in the right setting IMO.  And I do get a bit of a kick out of making sure I accidentally mention their age (30-40 years) to the incognoscenti who have been appreciating the sound under the assumption that they are the latest and greatest.

 

But, I would be better off in some ways with modern speakers.  For one, I wouldn't need to stock up on spares (both drive units and complete speakers) and I wouldn't have to worry about deteriorating caps and attenuators.  But that means finding new speakers that will sound as good to me on prolonged listening.  I know I've heard better modern speakers, but at a much higher price and I'm just not completely convinced about which ones would be as enjoyable to listen to in the longer term.  It's difficult in SA to get extended auditions at home and my audio memory isn't crash hot and my tastes can be a bit fickle at times  (I have to admit to going through a Klipsch phase, but therapy helped and I have kept the modified Belles).  I find it hard to fully assess a speaker with a relatively short listen, especially in an unfamiliar environment.

 

Sooner or later, I'll probably try to settle on something modern that will provide all I need and want for the foreseeable future.   Contenders would include Adam, Avantgarde and SGR, all of which have impressed me as immensely capable. But I'd hate to get that wrong with something new and expensive so I keep putting it in the too-hard basket, just like I'm doing with trying to choose my next car.  I did mention in another thread that I suffer from chronic inertia.  Besides, the risk factor with affordable vintage is low and the fun and enjoyment factors are high. 

 

I guess this is all a bit rambly and confused - but then, so am I.     

Edited January 9, 2013 by Tony M

[cheekyboy]

Hi Tony, are you trying to have your cake and eat it too? Not much point in buying vintage speakers if they don't sound different. After all, the vintage buyer is getting something old and worn and of unknown history and abuse: he wants it to sound different for his trouble. We are not talking about award winning refurbishments of ultra classics at 500 notes.

 

Hi Newman,

 

That statement may or may not be true, depending on your perspective and what you class as vintage, I guess. I presently have in my back room system a pair of 12" Tannoy Reds in 180 litre cabs, which are the exact same pair I first heard in 1971, over 40 years ago. Tannoy ceased making the Reds I think in around 1967, so the pair I have are at least 45 years old, or older. When I listen to these now, it is easy to think that the sound we get today from modern loudspeakers, certainly not for all but in the majority of cases, hasn't really come that far in the last 40 - 50 years. I've also had the privilege of listening to these Tannoys in several different rooms over the past 40 years and I must say they have never disappointed yet.

 

I was told recently by a guest I had here, that I should try and get a listen to Tony M's Yamaha NS1000s, as the person telling me this was really impressed with the sound Tony had achieved. It is something that I will have on my list of things to do the next time I'm over in Adelaide, provided of course that Tony will make me welcome once again.  I mention the NS1000s because these are definitely not my favourite loudspeaker, however, I trust the opinion of my guest and it would be interesting to hear what Tony has managed to do with them. 

 

Cheers,

 

Keith

Edited January 9, 2013 by cheekyboy

[Tony M]

Cheeky, you're always welcome here, mate.

[Newman]

Hi Tony, thanks for the very enjoyable post. There is nothing more fun to read than a hobbyist explaining his pleasure!

 

I will now sit back and enjoy reading suggestions of $500/pair vintage speakers (60's? 70's?) that sound great and don't need work.

 

[Newman]

Hi Keith, and Tony of course,

 

my main familiarity is with Tannoy 12" classics, Klipschorns, and Quads. Not my own but friends.

 

I know what fun you are having.

 

         

[Davros59]

Thank you all for your diverse and interesting comments. Some really good points here.

 

Firstly my musical tastes are broad and like most people will depend on mood and timing. Generally I look for clarity and would like to get as close to the source as possible. As such when I'm listening to a crisp acoustic guitar track, as a guitarist, I like to hear and feel the finger picking techniques and the left hand placements on the strings and frets. Hope that makes sense. Orchestral music appears to be a completely different beast altogether. So whilst it may not be possible to have a single set of speakers that completely covers the range of my tastes it would be nice (considering limited funding) to do exactly that.

 

As of last night I am the owner of (what appears to be) a fairly rare set of speakers. Monitor Audio MA4 series II. I did a small amount of research prior to the purchase and came up with relatively positive reviews. To my ear and with my system they are a definite improvement above the Jamos. They appear to be in great operational condition and the cabinets need some TLC, so an absolute perfect match for my requirements. I love the pristine clarity and the definite improvement in sound stage. I can honestly say that prior to this I had wondered what this actually meant! Subsequently got it!

My $500 budget was barely scratched and has afforded me the opportunity to seek other interesting small project speakers such as a pair of Sony ULM SS-7200. Forgive me for choosing this latter pair purely on looks alone. They just grabbed my attention.

 

Who was it that said I'd get sucked into this vortex and never see light of day again?

 

Oh yes, my wife as she attempted to vacuum around the growing collection of antiquities.

 

Onward and upward.

 

Just a note, my definition of Vintage is anything as old as me.

[Peter_F]

Monitor Audio MA4 series II. I did a small amount of research prior to the purchase and came up with relatively positive reviews. To my ear and with my system they are a definite improvement above the Jamos.

 

Good choice mate. 

 

The vintage MA speakers are very good indeed, good luck besting them at that price !! 

[Davros59]

Thanks flemo, I'm on a roll actually. I've just added a pair of Celestion Ditton 15s to my stable and I am still within my total budget. I've been looking without success for over a month and in the last 3 days I've picked up 3 seemingly red hot bargains.