Cafad Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) I was asked quite a while back in my "Integrated Amps" thread to start a similar thread for power amps and at the time I said that was not going to happen. Since then I have aquired a power amp or two (and several of the integrateds have separate pre and power stages) so I have reconsidered the idea. The big question though, is how to go about it. twwen2's "Standmount speakers" layout has inspired me to have a go at structuring things a bit more. The Integrated thread has been easy because I only mention the aspects of the performance that stand out as obvious, the thing is with power amps there will be less standing out since the pre will always be the same so the differences should be harder to spot. I was thinking something like this: As standard (these won't change much from contestant to contestant). Cables: As standard I plan to use the Redgum Audio Pipeline ICs and Little Blue Penguins Taranui speaker cables. If the performance is not to my liking I'll chop and change these with whatever else I have on hand and report the effects. Preamp: 2 choices here, I have a Burson PRE 160 and a Halcro DM8. The Burson is a good pre and within the constraints of affordability of most serious audiophiles (though it is now only available second hand) so it is first choice. The Halcro is as transparent as the air at 30,000 feet but amazingly expensive, so it can serve as a backup, just in case I can't wrap my head around what is going on using the Burson. The Halcro also supports balanced in and out where the Burson does not. Source: One Consonance cd120 cd player, still going strong. Speakers: ML1s, with Osborn Eclipses as backups. And the individual reviews. Name: Physical Details: Weight, power rating, construction details, balanced/unbalanced input, max power consumption, transformer rating and anything else about the physical aspects of the amp, including how good or bad it looks. And the music. Highs: Mids: Bass: Vocals: 2D Soundstaging: 3D Soundstaging: Overall performance Enjoyability: How well does it gell everything together. including Foot Tapping Factor and PRAT. Electric Guitar Test: Does it do Joe Satriani, Steve Via, Brian May, Santana and others justice. 80's Rock Test: Does 80's rock still sound like 80's rock. *Extra Test*: All rated from 1 to 10 to give a final score out of 100. Personality Summary: A summary to go along with and/or explain all the above scores. And finally a pic of the front and back. (Now that I've got a gorillapod I'm dangerous with a camera!) Any suggestions for the *Extra Test*? I can't think of one at the moment. Edited January 13, 2013 by Cafad 6
A J Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I could send you down a pair of Hypex Ncores potentially ? Sounds like a great idea by the way
Sub Sonic Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Sounds like a pretty interesting thread Could you also perhaps include specs such as input impedance, damping factor (output impedance?), input sensitivity, stated load impedance etc as these will have a bearing on what they can be partnered with? Your review threads are great to read, thanks for taking the time Regards, SS
Cafad Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 I could send you down a pair of Hypex Ncores potentially ?Sounds like a great idea by the way That would be great if you could, I don't have anywhere near the inventory of power amps to hand that I had in integrateds when I started that thread and having just googled Ncore I'd love to hear this class A/D idea of theirs. Sounds like a pretty interesting thread Could you also perhaps include specs such as input impedance, damping factor (output impedance?), input sensitivity, stated load impedance etc as these will have a bearing on what they can be partnered with? Your review threads are great to read, thanks for taking the time Regards, SS Can do SS, if those numbers are available I'll include them in the write up, along with anything else that may be relevant or interesting.
Luc Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Cafad, what about a Classical/Jazz 'Test' as well as it's a bit slanted otherwise don't you think?
Cafad Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 Classical, Hmmmm, well the idea is a bit radical but I think I could manage it. Thanks Luc!
Luc Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Just a track or two should do it but of course it really should be something you recognise so you have a point at which to compare.
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted January 6, 2013 Volunteer Posted January 6, 2013 Did you notice how he left out jazz
Cafad Posted January 6, 2013 Author Posted January 6, 2013 I'll be playing some great composers tracks as part of the "highs, mids and bass" testing (Wagner, Vivaldi, etc) so orchastral is covered. I'm open to suggestions of additions, particularly in areas I don't listen to regularly. And it seems Whatmore has found one of them. Does Queens album of the same name count?
toeknee2 Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I don't know if I'm on the same page but if bad recordings make any difference to your work forget "Queen", their recordings are very average.
Cafad Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 I don't know if I'm on the same page but if bad recordings make any difference to your work forget "Queen", their recordings are very average. Yes and no! If I don't include an average recording or two how will I know if they sound the way they are meant to? That's sort of why I included the 80's rock test, if I know that a certain album is meant to produce listening fatique and it does, all good. If it doesn't then this information is worthy of note.
Tony M Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Excellent idea, Cafad. I'll be watching this thread with interest. My shed-based listening room is in a shambles ATM as I've had to reseal half the floor - everything is shoved down one end and this has interrupted my own ongoing power amp evaluations. When I get things up and running it will be fun to compare your findings with my own experience if there is any overlap in the amps you trial. The ones I have on hand ATM are: TacT S2150 Ming Da MC34ab (power amp section) Rotel Michi RHB-10 Modwright KWA100SE Accuphase P300 Sony TAN-8550 v-fet Various vintage amps from Kenwood, Onkyo, Aiwa etc with separate pre and power sections. Also readily available are the Xindak 8800mne monoblocks I sold to Thiingy, who I'm sure would be happy to help with providing a "second opinion" perspective. I really hope you get to assess some of the ones I've listed. (BTW, as a bit of an aside, ATM, I'm listening almost exclusively in a cramped corner of the shed to the Sony V-fet which seems to have some sort of magic synergy with Wharfedale E50's. It's singing its heart out and thrilling me in the process - really have to find time to make a post on this combo as there's something very special (to my ears, anyway) going on here. It's very easy to live with the flaws inherent in these speakers when the very real strengths are highlighted by just the right power amp.) 2
twwen2 Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 I reckon amps are harder to review, because they don't always present such immediate differences like speakers do. Having said that, I've after spending quality time with an amp you can start to pick up on little things here and there. Go for it Cafad, if you've got the spare time (and money), I'm sure the community here will appreciate it.
Tony M Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 I reckon amps are harder to review, because they don't always present such immediate differences like speakers do. I have tended to think the same thing until now. Recent experiences are challenging that opinion in my case. I'm developing a new-found appreciation of how some amps match superbly with some speakers and the same amp can be totally underwhelming or even blatantly incompetent with others. I'm beginning to think there's a lot of truth in the idea that a well-designed and engineered active speaker is a good, safe way to go. Alternatively, it's a big help to begin by listening to the experiences of others in matching amps to speakers - there's a lot of hard-earned wisdom out there. 2
holliswhy Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Have you considered preamps? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD
Cafad Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 Have you considered preamps? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Yes, and I am slowly pursuing avenues in this area but I see preamps as more a long term part of the plan, maybe next year. For now it's power amps, in all their SS forms. And maybe even a tube unit or two as well, who knows, anything could happen!
THOMO Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 I have tended to think the same thing until now. Recent experiences are challenging that opinion in my case. I'm developing a new-found appreciation of how some amps match superbly with some speakers and the same amp can be totally underwhelming or even blatantly incompetent with others. I'm beginning to think there's a lot of truth in the idea that a well-designed and engineered active speaker is a good, safe way to go. Alternatively, it's a big help to begin by listening to the experiences of others in matching amps to speakers - there's a lot of hard-earned wisdom out there. Yes I agree. Synergy between power amps and speakers is the most important thing.Cost or reputation has very little to do with sound quality when it comes to power amps.The two best sounding power amps I have used [with specific speakers that is] both cost under $300. So a comparison like this is pretty much a waste of time. What would be more interesting would be a comparison of power amp /speaker combinations that people have discovered work together really well. 1
Tony M Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Hi Thomo I assume one is the Nakamichi 420 with the Gale 401's. I'd be very interested to know what the other one is.
Cafad Posted January 7, 2013 Author Posted January 7, 2013 So a comparison like this is pretty much a waste of time. Well, as a wise man once said "It is my time to waste!"
holliswhy Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Have you considered preamps? Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk HD Yes, and I am slowly pursuing avenues in this area but I see preamps as more a long term part of the plan, maybe next year. For now it's power amps, in all their SS forms. And maybe even a tube unit or two as well, who knows, anything could happen! Awesome. Can't wait for it.
THOMO Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 (edited) Hi Thomo I assume one is the Nakamichi 420 with the Gale 401's. I'd be very interested to know what the other other one is. The other one is a 3876T gainclone chip amp driving the midrange and tweeters on an Edgar horn set up.Steve M and myself have tried a large number of other power amps on these but the the chip amp sounds by far the best.These are a $150 kit amp from Jaycar. Vintage Tannoys spring to mind too.They can sound a bit like PA speakers with many amps but beautiful with the right one.Terrible with the Nakamichi and chip amp.Not too bad with my Accuphase but really good with my Almarro SET amp. Edited January 7, 2013 by THOMO
twwen2 Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 The problem I see with a list of speakers+amps that play nice together, is that not everyone values the same sound signatures/traits. One person's ideal end result may not suit another. But then you can apply this logic to all reviews I guess...
Volunteer sir sanders zingmore Posted January 7, 2013 Volunteer Posted January 7, 2013 The thing that I've always found difficult with a pre+ power combo is that it opens up so many more options than a simple integrated. So it's hard to know how much of the sound you hear is caused by the power amp and how much is from the pre. I guess if you limit the testing to the two pres you have suggested then at least you will be able to say that "power amp X sounds like this with preamp y". The hard bit (or the fun bit depending on how you look at it) is that a particular combo may not work well and cause you not to like the power amp but it may really shine with a different pre. In any event I'm really looking forward to this thread. Go for it !
Peter_F Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 What about this screaming bargain, particularly for ML1 owners..... http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/49373-ming-da-mc-7rii-preamp-mc805-mono-block-power-amps/
Gordon Macfarlane Posted January 10, 2013 Posted January 10, 2013 What about this screaming bargain, particularly for ML1 owners..... http://www.stereo.net.au/forums/index.php?/topic/49373-ming-da-mc-7rii-preamp-mc805-mono-block-power-amps/ Saw those Pete , and immediately thought "where can I find 1000 bucks from Would work well with my wee Tannoy System 600's
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