jrisles Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Just curious now that i have my Oppo BR Player and with all this talk about this 4K Technology with the new screens, projectors, panels, receivers and Blu Ray players all coming out with new or upgrades to utilise this 4K technology - what does this mean for the software exactly? Are we likely to see new Blu Ray discs or something entirely different again from a software perspective? I am beginning to build a Blu Ray collection and am concerned that this 4K stuff might make the Blu Ray disc/software redundant. Well not exactly redundant as i expect these dics to be able to be played on any 4K compatible player but there is a possibility the same title might be re-released on BR to take advantage of 4K? Is this likely to happen?
firefly0071 Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Cnet 2013 will giver more industry indicators of what could happen.
Guest JohnA Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 i really feel sorry for poor mr or mrs average Joe blow.... they have no idea what to get or which way things are heading. The salesman will try to sell them current stock, and bang tomorrow new tech is released and their brand new 65" panel is worthless. Its getting worse then computers
richard260 Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 When I was at jb the other day buying some dvds I was told there getting rid of normal dvds and blue ray will be all they stock as the min standard 1
Guest JohnA Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Gotta love progress! so do i, but not so quickly.... this is why i'll stick with 2 channel...
firefly0071 Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 i really feel sorry for poor mr or mrs average Joe blow.... they have no idea what to get or which way things are heading. The salesman will try to sell them current stock, and bang tomorrow new tech is released and their brand new 65" panel is worthless. Its getting worse then computers Bought a mini disc for about $300. Now worthless. Bought a DVD player ten years ago (then $300) and now worthless (had a scart cable). My ipod dock does not fit the Ipad mini and hence sold that. Went through 3 DACs with small losses when sold. Best to sell superseded electronic equipment as new technology comes abouth (when mainstream) to minimise one's losses.
firefly0071 Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 When I was at jb the other day buying some dvds I was told there getting rid of normal dvds and blue ray will be all they stock as the min standard BD sound and audio quality is better than DVD and BD players are relatively cheap these days.
joz Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Be careful about building a large BD library if your going to follow the 4k2k route. Well at least with the 84" LG panel I saw. It looks great with a 4k source, but BD 1080p was a bit of a let down in comparo.
firefly0071 Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 If you can afford a 4K TV in 2013, money is not a problem and the financial loss (if sold) of BD movies would be nothing. As someone on average income (or thereabouts), I do see your point.
metal beat Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) I would be happy for FTA TV stations to broadcast prime time TV in HD. Not holding my breath for 4k screens. Just another way to burn $$ on vapor ware. Me, I will continue to waste mine on music and HiFi. Edited January 6, 2013 by turntable
DoggieHowser Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I have built and rebuilt, dipped and double and triple dipped titles on LD DVD HDDVD and BD so its really nothing new. I tend not to buy vintage movies though unless some major rework has been done. But if there's a title that I have loved from young, I've always done the multi dip route. That said, I'm not sure 4k is going to be an interesting upgrade unless we get the rest of the ecosystem to upgrade as well. I find that on my 60" plasma at about 8 feet away, SD material I get from telly looks terribly soft and I think the improvement from 720p to 1080i/p to be marginal. So going for 4k would be nigh useless unless I went to 84" but at that point, I think SD broadcasts would be unwatchable. So the rest of the system would have to change as well including the TV broadcasts. For my HT room, I think once funds allow, a 4k display with 120" would be an improvement provided it also gave me ghost and flicker free 3D in the process. I might be able to swap out my 2 projector set up (one for 3D and one for 2D) then.
betty boop Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Just curious now that i have my Oppo BR Player and with all this talk about this 4K Technology with the new screens, projectors, panels, receivers and Blu Ray players all coming out with new or upgrades to utilise this 4K technology - what does this mean for the software exactly? Are we likely to see new Blu Ray discs or something entirely different again from a software perspective? I am beginning to build a Blu Ray collection and am concerned that this 4K stuff might make the Blu Ray disc/software redundant. Well not exactly redundant as i expect these dics to be able to be played on any 4K compatible player but there is a possibility the same title might be re-released on BR to take advantage of 4K? Is this likely to happen? understand that while we not only will need a new 4K delivery system you will also need to reconfigure your home setup to deliver it. 4K im not sure people realise is actually greater resolution than IMAX. think about it how many are going to setup an Imax in their home ? where 2.5-3x screen heights is what is set up at viewing distance for 2K or blu-ray typically with Imax you need to sit 1x-1.5x screen distances to appreciate. for the 84" screen mentioned youd need to sit your couch 1 - 1.5m away from the screen. just how many are actually going to do that ? and if you do as DH states quite rightly in the post above your PQ for DVD, blu-ray, and very much SD tv on fta broadcast is going to look terrible. 4K was designed to take the commercial theatres to next level. OEMs are trying their best to make it tempting for those considering it in a home setup. very unlikely anyone would be able to take advantage of it as with your typical 3m seating distances most wont even be able to fit a screen in to do it justice with your typical 2.4-2.7m ceilings. for those wanting to read more about 4k and relevance, the link below is well worth a read http://magazine.creativecow.net/article/the-truth-about-2k-4k-the-future-of-pixels 1
ArthurDent Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) Just curious now that i have my Oppo BR Player and with all this talk about this 4K Technology with the new screens, projectors, panels, receivers and Blu Ray players all coming out with new or upgrades to utilise this 4K technology - what does this mean for the software exactly? Are we likely to see new Blu Ray discs or something entirely different again from a software perspective? I am beginning to build a Blu Ray collection and am concerned that this 4K stuff might make the Blu Ray disc/software redundant. Well not exactly redundant as i expect these dics to be able to be played on any 4K compatible player but there is a possibility the same title might be re-released on BR to take advantage of 4K? Is this likely to happen? It won't be called Blu-ray but of course all the existing titles will be released yet again on the new 4k format for us to spend our money on. That's how it works. Probably not a disk though, pay on demand streaming perhaps as they can control that better. I wouldn't worry about your existing Blu-ray disks as they'll scale nicely to 4k displays. When you can afford one Edited January 6, 2013 by KenTripp
betty boop Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) red ray is one possiblity, and also their odemax distribution system that works like would via an app store. http://www.theverge.com/2012/12/1/3713386/red-redray-player-1450-preorder-4k-video sonys version is a hard drive server, http://www.engadget.com/2012/11/29/sony-4k-ultra-hd-video-player-phil-molyneux/ hard drive systems sound unmanageable. as is odemax and any distribution or cloud system if you think about it. heck they cant even do 1080p HD with hd audio ie blu-ray quality via any distribution system how the heck they going to do 4K with HD audio. for it all to work we'd need to have nbn now and huge download limits. we just arent there yet.... Edited January 6, 2013 by :) al
vic Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Hi Al, 35mm film Resolution is aprox 4k to 6k and colour bit depth 14 bits plus depending stock used. 15perf/70mm film (real IMAX ) is 18k resolution (OCN) and 15k in theatre.The negative is 10 x 35mm frame. Digital IMAX is 2 x 2k projectors (2k) , with a move to 4k in the future. Moving from to 2k to 4k , is 4 times pixels of 2k Rez . 1
DoggieHowser Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 I dunno what the resolution of regular film is but I did watch some of the movies that were in 2k vs film in the cinemas and I always thought the film ones looked very soft and blurry. Worse, the fast action scenes were nigh impossible to take in on film.
emesbee Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 (edited) When I was at jb the other day buying some dvds I was told there getting rid of normal dvds and blue ray will be all they stock as the min standard Yeah, but what about all the titles that have only been released on DVD, and probably won't make it on to blu-ray? Oh well, just another good reason to shop online. I'm becoming a bit jaded with all this planned obsolescence, there is only so many times that I am prepared to buy the same thing! Its about time we had some stability. Edited January 7, 2013 by emesbee
nodice Posted January 6, 2013 Posted January 6, 2013 Bloody pointless if you ask me, I don't want to watch anything sharper than what I've got. It's starting to look very very flat/static.... even with 3d. I much prefer my 1080p projector then my Sony ( approx 50"). Eventually I can see myself upgrading, but only when forced to.
Guest JohnA Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 i am glad i got out of ht to be honest.. apart from the fact i dont watch all that much in the way of movies, i am happy to just sit in the lounge room, watch it on the tv and still have a conversation with the family. I refuse to purchase too many movies these days, would rather just rent. otherwise you end up, as some say with the same movies in 10 different formats. I wont be buying a new tv till this one dies, as for new formats, i'll hang on to blu ra for as long as i can, or until my hand is forced and they no longer release anything in it
betty boop Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 <blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="DoggieHowser" data-cid="823444" data-time="1357511980"><p> I dunno what the resolution of regular film is but I did watch some of the movies that were in 2k vs film in the cinemas and I always thought the film ones looked very soft and blurry. Worse, the fast action scenes were nigh impossible to take in on film.</p></blockquote> Not surprising DH, film is lower than 2k as seen in cinemas. From link below, "In the current environment, a 2K digital projector will exhibit higher resolution than is currently delivered on release prints to the theatre, and will exhibit substantial image sharpness and clarity due to the better system MTF that preserves higher contrast in the mid frequencies. The images produced should be more striking than the competing (release) film images. Scenes will still exist where the digital structure of the system will be apparent in the image, and a comparative film clip will be smoother." http://etconsult.com/papers/Technical%20Issues%20in%20Cinema%20Resolution.pdf As mentioned earlier on link posted earlier IMAX is slightly below 4K.
vic Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 Hi Al, Yes I read that link, the IMAX prints were 4th generation but IMAX prints are 2nd generation and dark night and TDKR had 1st gen prints from the OCN.Plus 10yr old. #60 David Mullen ASC Sustaining Members 14959 posts Gender:Male Location:Los Angeles Occupation:Cinematographer / DP Posted 23 July 2011 - 08:58 AM There are a lot of conflicting ideas going on regarding IMAX resolution, but keep in mind that the 15-perf 65mm negative itself is 2.9X wider than Super-35 film. So even if you picked a really low value for Super-35 image resolution, like 2K, you'd have to accept that IMAX should be able to deliver nearly 6K. At the high end, if you believe Super-35 can resolve 4K, then you'd think that an IMAX negative was resolving nearly 12K. I tend to be in the middle, I think Super-35 resolves around 3.5K at best but should be scanned at 4 to 6K therefore... which suggests that an IMAX negative resolves around 10K but probably should be scanned at 15K or so. On the other hand, large format lenses often do not have as high an MTF (because they don't need to) and other real-world factors may reduce IMAX negative's resolution downwards to a potential 8K to 9K. Now at the other end is printing and then projection... generally we accept that about half the resolution is lost in projecting even a contact print, hence why today most 2K projection feels about on par with the best 35mm print projection, and decent 4K projection of 35mm material feels like the old 70mm blow-ups we used to see. John Galt at Panavision once mentioned putting a 4K chart on a piece of IMAX print film and projecting it in an IMAX theater and most people viewing his test said they saw a uniform grey field, they couldn't see the lines. Now of course I'm skeptical but on the other hand, I'm sure John is reporting the results he got accurately. But if IMAX is about 1.4X the size of regular 70mm, and 4K projection "feels" similar to 70mm projection, you'd want to believe that IMAX projection should be 6K if done digitally, not 4K as IMAX has been planning. 4K projection for IMAX sort of falls into "what can we get away with minimally" line of thinking which goes against the whole purpose of IMAX, which is, frankly, resolution OVERKILL. That was its whole point, excessiveness! Anyway, if we are going to eventually push for a 4K standard for mainstream digital feature production / post-production / projection -- which I think would be ideal -- then digital IMAX has to clearly be much better than that or else what's the point of the IMAX label? It has to feel twice as good, twice as big, as what you are getting in a normal theater space. Which to me means a 6K standard at the minimum for production / post / projection (I know... 6K isn't twice 4K), 8K would be even better, whether or not that is possible or practical. IMAX was never really about being practical afterall. Quote from http://www.cinematography.com/index.php?s=c47e82365a4fd4ac368ef5f27997a54c&showtopic=49787&st=40 Quote from ASC mag aug 2008 TDK A Hybrid Finish David Heuring On their previous collaborations, Christopher Nolan and Wally Pfister, ASC chose a traditional photochemical finish over a digital intermediate, but their decision to shoot portions of The Dark Knight in 15-perf 65mm Imax for eventual 35mm and Imax exhibition necessitated a departure from that practice. David Keighley, executive vice president of Imax Corp. and president of its post subsidiary, DKP 70mm Inc., was integral to Dark Knight’s post path. “David oversaw the process that brought Batman Begins to Imax screens, and he’s not only very proficient technically, he also has a very good eye for color and density,†says Pfister. “Chris and I knew that in David’s hands, our material would not be over-manipulated or taken in the wrong direction.†During the shoot, the production’s Imax negative was shipped to CFI Technicolor in Los Angeles for processing, and DKP 70mm then made 35mm printdowns, screened them, and discussed the results with Pfister by phone; the printdowns were also shipped to the set and projected as dailies. Occasionally, Keighley made 70mm prints of this footage and checked its quality on an Imax screen. Front-end lab work for the production’s 35mm material was done at CFI, Astro Labs in Chicago, and Technicolor in London. Technicolor’s Hollywood facility handled the back-end and release prints; Pfister and color timer David Orr timed the 35mm images using the traditional photochemical process. After shooting was complete, and after the editing process was well under way, DKP 70mm scanned select Imax takes at 8K resolution on a unique Northlight scanner. Then, Pacific Title and other facilities made 2.40:1 extractions from the 1.33:1 Imax negative to conform to the framing and movement decisions made in the Avid by Nolan and editor Lee Smith. That process resulted in a 35mm anamorphic negative, which was combined with effects shots and used to generate 35mm release prints. To bring scenes shot in 35mm to Imax screens, where images are projected in 1.43:1, DKP 70mm scanned the 35mm interpositive at 4K, and an Imax team in Toronto applied digital DMR (Digital Remastering) processing to degrain and sharpen the images. The process stayed at 4K until the images were filmed out onto 65mm back at Keighley’s facility and combined with the Imax material for print. “The final Imax print combined the 4K DMR filmout, 5.6K and 8K Imax filmouts, and 18K contact prints from the Imax negative,†says Keighley. “People suggested Chris and Wally should have covered themselves by shooting key sequences in both 35mm and Imax, but the 2.40:1 extraction from the Imax frame looks beautiful,†he continues. “In fact, due to the oversampling, it’s probably the best 35mm anamorphic image we’ve ever seen. If we’d had time to scan the original negative at 6K, we could have produced even higher quality. The information is on the negative — 35mm film captures the equivalent of 6K and a color bit depth of 14 bits plus.†As they did with the Imax prints of Batman Begins, Keighley and his team screened each of the 80 Imax prints of Dark Knight in real time to ensure quality. “We’re a small group of hands-on people who really care about images,†he says. “We pay attention to all the details all the way to the screen.†<< previous || next >>
vic Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 The current 4k dlp dci projectors are still using only 2k speced lenses, new 4k lense are becoming available now .Good optics lenses etc can cost big money,with lenses from 18k to over 100k.Fixed lenses are the best as any zoom is a compromise.
betty boop Posted January 7, 2013 Posted January 7, 2013 yeah vic big difference between what a negative might yield in resolution vs what can deliver on screen thats for sure. only consumer 4K projector around am aware of is the sony 1000es @ $25k http://www.sony.com.au/product/vpl-vw1000es ps a bit of pro 4K info from sony, why 4K ? mainly goes into the benefits for commercial theatres which as mentioned before is the actual main reason for 4K http://pro.sony.com/bbsccms/static/files/mkt/digitalcinema/Why_4K_WP_Final.pdf
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