Is audiophile gear a rip off?

[wis97non]

http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/home-theatre-audio/home-cinema-audio/audio/hi-fi-radio/hi-fi-boss-slams-rip-off-industry-162930

[BATMAQN]

OH OH here comes a war.

[eman]

http://www.techradar.com/news/home-cinema/home-theatre-audio/home-cinema-audio/audio/hi-fi-radio/hi-fi-boss-slams-rip-off-industry-162930

 

"...buy a 50 watts per channel amplifier - bearing in mind that you would need 500 watt peaks for most modern recordings at normal listening levels -"

 

What !!? 

[Guest fordgtlover]

Let's face it, the audio industry has its own gravy train and it's similar to the gravy trains that exist in any other area of 'review journalism'. The whole industry runs on advertising dollars and review samples. If a reviewer was so brave as to point out that a $400 power supply was just a box with some parts worth about $40 and that it worked as effectvely as the $50 option, he might find that manufacturers stop sending review items.

 

Is a Louis Vuitton bag worth $2,000? Clearly not if you are simply considering the cost of materials and labour with a reasoanble markup, which would see it sell for $30. But, a $30 bag isn't a lifestyle product worthy of showing off to your friends. So, those who can afford to pay these prices may be inclined to part with their money in order to have a product that stands to make their friends envious. Without this mindset, companies such as LVMH that turns over about 20 Billion Euros each year in luxury goods wouldn't have a market

 

Audio gear is no different. I have no doubt that there are audio companies that offer real engnineering value, but there are plenty of companies out there flogging tarted up products to those willing to part with their money for a fancy name or a flashy box with some bling. If this weren't true, why doesn't all audio gear simply come in utilitarian black boxes?

 

The value proposition is a personal and relative one. Caveat emptor and all that...

Edited January 5, 2013 by fordgtlover

[nodice]

"...buy a 50 watts per channel amplifier - bearing in mind that you would need 500 watt peaks for most modern recordings at normal listening levels -"

 

What !!? 

Other then this part which i don't understand, the article seems to be spot on in my experience. I almost got out of it all completely because we were being sold the same old **** over and over and nothing really made me go wow to upgrade from my last setup even though I auditioned the next models way above. I respect that other people value little differences much more than I do but nothing ever made me justify spending an extreme amount of money, maybe it's because I just didn't have it lying around or I was at a less experienced stage. But in saying all that this article demonstrates the reason every thing has gone bad. I think if the industry cleansed itself and dropped the rubbish and promoted truthfully then maybe we'd all have a bigger audience and things would improve all around for manufacturers and general population, possibly also the addition of better quality music recordings for the masses.

 

We all look for something in particular, maybe it's an endless chase and it doesn't exist and that's what I recently solved myself. Source is everything and I am sorry if I upset you but I feel 90% of hifi is on a silly chase that they cannot fix because of the recording. Example A: Pink floyd documentary on iTunes, when he plays in the studio for 10 seconds at the start sounds 10 times better then any pink floyd recording i've listened to.

Edited January 5, 2013 by nodice

[Phantom]

The guy is an engineer and a motor mechanic, why would he know jack schit about audio?

He is entitled to an opinion of course, but his view carries no more [ or less ] weight than anyone else's even though he is trying to make himself feel important

[nodice]

The guy is an engineer and a motor mechanic, why would he know jack schit about audio?

He is entitled to an opinion of course, but his view carries no more [ or less ] weight than anyone else's even though he is trying to make himself feel important

 

What made you say this? I don't understand...

[bhobba]

'Most hi-fi systems on sale worldwide are so heavily marked up that the majority of customers are being scandalously ripped off. That's what AVI hi-fi chief Ashley James said in an interview conducted with Tech.co.uk last Friday'

 

Well actually I have to say in my experience its probably true.

 

And he is not the only one to say similar things:

http://www.stereophile.com/content/skin-deep

 

Its why I usually stick with small boutique outfits that sell direct and spend very little on marketing and don't sell retail.  They have much less markup and are way better value.

 

But it means you usually wont find the stuff reviewed in the Hi Fi press or down at your local Hi Fi store - you must seek it out yourself and listen.  That's the real key IMHO.  If when compared to other stuff you have heard it is irrelevant about markups, rip-off's or whatever.  If you like what you hear and its worth the money to you that's all that really counts.  But I suspect over time the old marketing model peddled by guys like Magico with a nine times markup on their stuff to cover their enormous marketing costs will gradually fade - but you never know. 

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited January 5, 2013 by bhobba

[Guest fordgtlover]

The guy is an engineer and a motor mechanic, why would he know jack schit about audio?

He is entitled to an opinion of course, but his view carries no more [ or less ] weight than anyone else's even though he is trying to make himself feel important

 

And, of course that he runs a company that makes audio gear and so he should be talking the industry UP rather than slamming it.

[bhobba]

"...buy a 50 watts per channel amplifier - bearing in mind that you would need 500 watt peaks for most modern recordings at normal listening levels -"

 

What !!? 

 

Rubbish of course.  But to be fair on many recordings there is probably some very minor clipping going on at louder levels without that type of power - but its inaudible.  Still its nice marketing.

 

Thanks

Bill

[Telecine]

 But I suspect over time the old marketing model peddled by guys like Magico with a nine times markup on their stuff to cover their enormous marketing costs will gradually fade - but you never know. 

 

Thanks

Bill

You have mentioned this nine times markup by Magico a few times Bill, what is the source of that information?

[bhobba]

You have mentioned this nine times markup by Magico a few times Bill, what is the source of that information?

 

From a number of sources I don't wish to name.  But even aside from that it is pretty well known in the industry it is about 10 times eg:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/7943/speaker-markup

 

'I've seen evidence again and again of 900%-1000% (yes, thats 10 times) markup on many of the commercial, mass produced speakers. Thus, in a typical $500 pair of speakers, you may have somewhere near $50-75 worth of drivers and crossovers. Often, the cost of the cabinets will be about this same figure. This seems to apply to the high-end retailers as well. There are lots of research & design costs, salaries, marketing, etc. that need to be recovered once a finshed product hits the shelves.'

 

So in that sense Magico is probably a bit better than average - the issue with them though is the very high cost of the speakers so the $'s you pay for that markup is HORRID.

 

Of course if after you hear them you feel they are worth the money then that is of no relevance.

 

Thanks

Bill

Edited January 5, 2013 by bhobba

[Telecine]

From a number of sources I don't wish to name.  But even aside from that it is pretty well known in the industry it is about 10 times eg:

http://www.hometheaterforum.com/t/7943/speaker-markup

 

'I've seen evidence again and again of 900%-1000% (yes, thats 10 times) markup on many of the commercial, mass produced speakers. Thus, in a typical $500 pair of speakers, you may have somewhere near $50-75 worth of drivers and crossovers. Often, the cost of the cabinets will be about this same figure. This seems to apply to the high-end retailers as well. There are lots of research & design costs, salaries, marketing, etc. that need to be recovered once a finshed product hits the shelves.'

 

So in that sense Magico is probably a bit better than average - the issue with them though is the very high cost of the speakers so the $'s you pay for that markup is HORRID.

 

Of course if after you hear them you feel they are worth the money then that is of no relevance.

 

Thanks

Bill

That thread you linked to is all over the place and seems rather speculative. I personally find the suggestion of a 900% markup highly doubtful.

[Addicted to music]

Having an electronic background helps, even basic electronics, this is the reason I went DIY, some of the amps I built bested some of the best commercials in the mid to late 80 and that included Audio Research.

The trouble with SOTA is that it takes manufacturers time to catch up, then eveyone involved have to feed there families and put a roof over there heads. If you do a cost analysis on a amp you'll find the make up can reach the 500% if not even more. The ones that rip you even further are the ones that market "hicap psu"

[ehtcom]

"...buy a 50 watts per channel amplifier - bearing in mind that you would need 500 watt peaks for most modern recordings at normal listening levels -"

 

What !!? 

Sounds pretty typical for today's in-efficient speakers.

 

Transient peaks will be 15 to 18 db above average listening levels.

With a pair ~85db speakers listening at an average level of 82 to 85db (4 to 8 wpc) at the seating position, transient peaks can be above 500wpc.

 

For every 3db increase in sound pressure you need to double your amplifier output power.

 

Cheers, Earle.

[valvelover]

This doesn't surprise me at all.  I've been saying it for a long while.

 

Dave

[peacewise]

It's funny how "markup" can be manipulated.

Is it a markup based upon the cost of the parts?

Is it a markup that includes the cost of labour to build the unit with said parts?

Shall we include R&D, or advertising, or lease of factory floor, or administration staff, or transport of parts, or time spent sourcing and testing parts?

Come on, if ya wanna be ANGRY and have a fun forum argument, just quote markup based only upon cost of parts, forget all the other expenses involved in providing a unit to a customer.

[Saxon Hall]

Interesting article but I think quite a lot has changed since that article was published almost 6 years ago.

[Dr Good Vibe]

Well very interesting, I have personally seen it on paper even where a price is arrived at and the thought at that time was too cheap people won't buy it. 

There are that class of people that think that it can only be good if you pay a very hi price.

In days gone by people would pay say 150K+ for a peace of gear and yes there are a lot of costs involved but a profit of about 100K is just rubbish, ok be a bit more generous 80K.

 

There is I think one man and I'm sure more that is a amazing builder Black Art Lucas worth every penny. 

[eman]

"...buy a 50 watts per channel amplifier - bearing in mind that you would need 500 watt peaks for most modern recordings at normal listening levels -"

 

What !!? 

Sounds pretty typical for today's in-efficient speakers.

 

Transient peaks will be 15 to 18 db above average listening levels.

With a pair ~85db speakers listening at an average level of 82 to 85db (4 to 8 wpc) at the seating position, transient peaks can be above 500wpc.

 

For every 3db increase in sound pressure you need to double your amplifier output power.

 

Cheers, Earle.

So , if we don't have a 500w amp do we just not get such 'dynamic' or clear transients ?

[b.d]

Its why I usually stick with small boutique outfits that sell direct and spend very little on marketing and don't sell retail.  They have much less markup and are way better value.

 

It can also make sense to go with a major pro audio player, certain economies of scale to be enjoyed, and that side of audio seem less taken in by pretty boxes. 

 

I dont think its just the manufacturers and hifi rags that are at fault though, we do it to each other every time we declare our latest acquisition to murder everything that's come before. As nodice so eloquently put it, "we were being sold the same old **** over and over and nothing really made me go wow"

[Sir Triode]

What I would like magazines to do would be to compare current products with those made in the 80s and 90s. 

 

I'd bet that there either would not be very much difference in sound quality or perhaps the older gear beating the current ones in terms of SQ and build quality.

[Addicted to music]

What I would like magazines to do would be to compare current products with those made in the 80s and 90s.

I'd bet that there either would not be very much difference in sound quality or perhaps the older gear beating the current ones in terms of SQ and build quality.

Maybe so, in the 80s to 90s CDs where being released, SS manufacturers where at their prime, components now that are available such as MKPs, were not available, step attenuators were non existent, electrolytic caps with low ESR now where not available then. A top of the range SOTA Naim amp, will have a typical $2.00 carbon base wiper, I know because I had one in bits, MKPS where not even mentioned in crossover on loudspeakers. Do you think $50k interconnects and power conditioners where available? you'd be laughed at and be sent to have your mental health assessed. Today's technology in component manufacturers have shifted by raising the benchmark out of sight! Edited January 5, 2013 by pchan

[sir sanders zingmore]

Sounds pretty typical for today's in-efficient speakers.

 

Transient peaks will be 15 to 18 db above average listening levels.

With a pair ~85db speakers listening at an average level of 82 to 85db (4 to 8 wpc) at the seating position, transient peaks can be above 500wpc.

 

For every 3db increase in sound pressure you need to double your amplifier output power.

 

Cheers, Earle.

 

Thanks Earle, nice to have some input from someone who actually knows what they are talking about

[Newman]

"...buy a 50 watts per channel amplifier - bearing in mind that you would need 500 watt peaks for most modern recordings at normal listening levels -"

 

What !!? 

Rubbish of course.  But to be fair on many recordings there is probably some very minor clipping going on at louder levels without that type of power - but its inaudible.  Still its nice marketing.

So , if we don't have a 500w amp do we just not get such 'dynamic' or clear transients ?

 

It is a defensible and reasonable point of view.

 

It is also not new. http://www.carltonaudiovisual.com.au/?q=node/view/1020

 

So if the guy shares that view, I'm prepared to respect it. Also happy to respect anyone who debates it. Which is not the same as rubbishing it.

 

It's obviously not a 'rule';

 

e.g. if 500W is the guideline for 85dB speakers, then 50W will do for 95dB speakers, and 5W for 105dB speakers.

 

e.g.2 if you have active speakers then the power needed can be split among multiple amps.

 

I am also a proponent of seeing more dynamics in future recordings, so I am clearly biased in favour of amps that can handle it.