HELP I 'm confused about cables and wires

[djb]

I need assistance. I forone can NOT understand the great divide on the issue of cables a a wires.

Surely that old adage that an audio system is Only as good as its weakest link means that the interconnects need to be chosen with as much care as the components. There can be no case for no jams cables or DIY

The big names in cable have the science, the military contracts the experience the rave reviews from musicians.

I provide but a single example -SHUNYATA recommended by the whole Vienna philharmonic orchestra,

The owner/designer an academic worked for the USbmilitary I believe.

If you don't believe me look at the Shunyata site and see the science involved.

No system can be complete without wire of this quality. With this quality the cost is clearly reasonable.

PowerSnakes Signal and Digital cables share a technology that dramatically improves measured square-wave performance and objectively lowers the nominal impedance of wire. No other product in the cable industry can compete with the cable's measured results, subjective performance or superior price to performance ratio. The enormous price advantage that cables enjoy is the result of Shunyata's decision to forgo the inflated price schedules that are common throughout the cable industry. The measurable and critically assessed truth is that the cables offer state-of-the-art performance that can cost less than one-thousand dollars, while other self-proclaimed SOTA cables can cost in excess of $10,000 to 20,000 dollars.

http://www.shunyata.com/Content/products-SignalCables.html

[Telecine]

I agree djb, the science must rule out. How can no name brands, the little companies and DIY possibly compete?

[metal beat]

Just like all cable manufacturer's, they Shunyata make cheap and expensive cables.

Power cables @ $3500, speaker cables @ $4000 and power conditioners @ $5000

Sota @ under $1k, which ones?

No different to reputable long term cable companies like Kimber, Transparent, Audio quest, Nordosr and alike.

I do have a Shunyata Hydra that was all the rave years ago. It makes a great boat anchor. Anyone want to buy it?

Edited December 26, 2012 by turntable

[Krispy Audio]

Shunyata power cables start at $99, but there's a new Viper Zi-tron power cable due any week now which should retail under $1k, a bargain in the scheme of their line-up and incorporating their new technology.

[Saxon Hall]

SOTA cables probably do provide some improvement but is it worth the higher price? That to me is the vital factor. Obviously if you have a 50k system and you spend another 5k on cables to get a 1.5% improvement than maybe it is all worthwhile. Purely subjective.

[Gruffnutz]

So; the entire Vienna Philharmonic Orchestra have compared cables and come to a unanimous verdict that they should endorse a particular brand? I think you may be confusing hype for science and contractual obligation for professional opinion. The big players do tend to have 'the science' on their side; that's why the top line products from the likes of Belden, Canare and Mogami are probably all you need. Relatively cheap too.

[Willco]

Ha, Interesting marketing-if the Broncos can have XXXX all over their shirts I suppose the Vienna Philharmonic can be persuaded to plump for a Cable brand, although the source and logistics could be slightly questionable

That fact I feel would need more than a tongue in cheek corroboration although Caelin Gabriel Mr Shunyata is no fool and knows the ropes of the Industry well--kudos to him on the coup if deemed .

Fine cables--I've heard'em-- hell in one system they even made the YG speaker sound tolerable--that takes some doing!

Locally a fine seller a bonus with Cam the man- no BS dude there--pity there is no entry -say $500/$1000 Inters' but its Xmas time-- maybe Krispy Klaus can be sweet talked

Willco

Edited December 26, 2012 by Willco

[bzr]

Maybe the guy that records the orchestra does the reco, that would have more weight for me. Whether or not it is so I do not know!

[andyr]

I need assistance. I for one can NOT understand the great divide on the issue of cables a a wires.

Surely that old adage that an audio system is Only as good as its weakest link means that the interconnects need to be chosen with as much care as the components. There can be no case for no jams cables or DIY

The big names in cable have the science, the military contracts the experience the rave reviews from musicians.

I provide but a single example - SHUNYATA recommended by the whole Vienna philharmonic orchestra,

The owner/designer an academic worked for the US military I believe.

If you don't believe me look at the Shunyata site and see the science involved.

No system can be complete without wire of this quality. With this quality the cost is clearly reasonable.

PowerSnakes Signal and Digital cables share a technology that dramatically improves measured square-wave performance and objectively lowers the nominal impedance of wire. No other product in the cable industry can compete with the cable's measured results, subjective performance or superior price to performance ratio. The enormous price advantage that cables enjoy is the result of Shunyata's decision to forgo the inflated price schedules that are common throughout the cable industry. The measurable and critically assessed truth is that the cables offer state-of-the-art performance that can cost less than one-thousand dollars, while other self-proclaimed SOTA cables can cost in excess of $10,000 to 20,000 dollars.

http://www.shunyata....gnalCables.html

You always seem to be confused, djb! But I hope you enjoyed your Christmas day (in Dandenong, wasn't it? ).

But you have got something right - an audio system is only as good as its weakest link! Trouble is ... there are many links in the audio chain. (So the people who have a single source with a volume control and active speakers do have something going for them! )

My philosophy on this is that any cable degrades the sound in some way - so:

• Use the shortest cable you can get away with (so you get minimum degradation).
  
• Select the cables you use - power cord, interconnect & speaker cable - according to the relevance of their geometry and materials to the task at hand. I, for instance, never use stranded wire - even coax is verboten, as the (stranded) shield is the 'ground' part of the signal wire. So for ICs, I use 'twinax" - 2 solid-core wires underneath a braided shield which is connected to one end only (so it doesn't form part of the signal chain).
  
• The wires in a power cord should be thicker, rather than thinner, to minimise resistance to the current flowing (so this means I do use stranded power cords):
  
  • my adage here (stolen from the late, great Allen Wright) is "nothing succeeds like excess "! So 30amp wire is waaay better than 10amp wire. (Remember, the current flowing in a power cord is not a constant draw but only occurs when the reservoir caps in the PS are in the charging part of the cycle - hence large currents flow for milliseconds. Even for source components.)
    
  • whether you decide a PC needs to be shielded or not is a matter of personal choice. Unless you are unable to organise your cables to not have PCs running parallel to signal wires for any appreciable length, IMO shielded PCs are a waste of time ... given the metres of unshielded "twin+earth" in the wall cavities, the feed in from the street ... and the kilometres of HT pylon wiring from the power station.
    

  [*]An interconnect needs to have low 'C'. Impedance ('L') is not important because the current is so low and neither is resistance.

  [*]Speaker cables need to have:

  • low 'L', due to the high currents flowing.
    
  • low 'R', otherwise the damping factor of the amplifier may be compromised.
    
  • relatively low 'C'. The first two, above, affect the signal currents; 'C' does nothing to the signal ... but high 'C' - eg. from braided speaker cables - may cause your amp to go into oscillation ... and death! (I blew the output transistors twice on an amp I bought many years ago, trying to drive 12m speaker cables! :lol: )
    

Of course, the need for thickness in speaker wires - for low 'R' - is diametrically opposed to the concepts that:

• Thick wires degrade the signal because the "skin effect" comes into play for HFs. (IE. thick cables give you "smearing".) Some people - typically engineers - say that skin effect only comes into play at MHz (ie. not at audio frequencies). It's a free world so I'm very happy for them to believe that ... but I myself, for speaker cables, use multiple (insulated) stands of solid-core wire instead of 1 thicker wire.
  
• Stranded wire degrades the signal due to "strand jumping". Again, electrical engineers pooh-pooh this idea but it's part of my "audio philosophy" - so I solve this by using multiple insulated strands.
  

And, David, before you rush off and buy some expensive speaker cable, let me regale you with the tale of the $10K stranded speaker cables that a mate of mine bought about 10 years ago. These were from some "much lauded" Yanqui company ... so I took round some high current (stranded) auto wire that I had bought from Bursons - and, amazingly, this sounded better than his cables! So he subsequently sold the US cables!

Regards,

Andy

[Telecine]

Interesting but seems very complicated Andy. Surely the average punter would be better off just buying the most expensive cables he an afford from a well known company.

[Addicted to music]

Djb,

I'm gonna catch a snake!

I've seen some huge looooonnnggg red belly black snake @ RAAF Williams Base point cook, they can be entertaining for speaker cables!

Edited December 26, 2012 by pchan

[Newman]

Am I the only one to read humour in djb's OP?

[wolster]

Djb,

I'm gonna catch a snake!

I've seen some huge looooonnnggg red belly black snake @ RAAF Williams Base point cook, they can be entertaining for speaker cables!

Well you promised us something special for Boxing Day, djb.

[Phantom]

I agree djb, the science must rule out. How can no name brands, the little companies and DIY possibly compete?

Pardon my if I am wrong here Telecine, but by any tiny chance were you on a urine extraction mission?

[Phantom]

Am I the only one to read humour in djb's OP?

Not exactly. :lol:

[valvelover]

That's an interesting read Andy - thank you very much!

Dave

You always seem to be confused, djb! But I hope you enjoyed your Christmas day (in Dandenong, wasn't it? ).

But you have got something right - an audio system is only as good as its weakest link! Trouble is ... there are many links in the audio chain. (So the people who have a single source with a volume control and active speakers do have something going for them! )

My philosophy on this is that any cable degrades the sound in some way - so:

• Use the shortest cable you can get away with (so you get minimum degradation).
  
• Select the cables you use - power cord, interconnect & speaker cable - according to the relevance of their geometry and materials to the task at hand. I, for instance, never use stranded wire - even coax is verboten, as the (stranded) shield is the 'ground' part of the signal wire. So for ICs, I use 'twinax" - 2 solid-core wires underneath a braided shield which is connected to one end only (so it doesn't form part of the signal chain).
  
• The wires in a power cord should be thicker, rather than thinner, to minimise resistance to the current flowing (so this means I do use stranded power cords):
  
  • my adage here (stolen from the late, great Allen Wright) is "nothing succeeds like excess "! So 30amp wire is waaay better than 10amp wire. (Remember, the current flowing in a power cord is not a constant draw but only occurs when the reservoir caps in the PS are in the charging part of the cycle - hence large currents flow for milliseconds. Even for source components.)
    
  • whether you decide a PC needs to be shielded or not is a matter of personal choice. Unless you are unable to organise your cables to not have PCs running parallel to signal wires for any appreciable length, IMO shielded PCs are a waste of time ... given the metres of unshielded "twin+earth" in the wall cavities, the feed in from the street ... and the kilometres of HT pylon wiring from the power station.
    

  [*]An interconnect needs to have low 'C'. Impedance ('L') is not important because the current is so low and neither is resistance.

  [*]Speaker cables need to have:

  • low 'L', due to the high currents flowing.
    
  • low 'R', otherwise the damping factor of the amplifier may be compromised.
    
  • relatively low 'C'. The first two, above, affect the signal currents; 'C' does nothing to the signal ... but high 'C' - eg. from braided speaker cables - may cause your amp to go into oscillation ... and death! (I blew the output transistors twice on an amp I bought many years ago, trying to drive 12m speaker cables! :lol: )
    

Of course, the need for thickness in speaker wires - for low 'R' - is diametrically opposed to the concepts that:

• Thick wires degrade the signal because the "skin effect" comes into play for HFs. (IE. thick cables give you "smearing".) Some people - typically engineers - say that skin effect only comes into play at MHz (ie. not at audio frequencies). It's a free world so I'm very happy for them to believe that ... but I myself, for speaker cables, use multiple (insulated) stands of solid-core wire instead of 1 thicker wire.
  
• Stranded wire degrades the signal due to "strand jumping". Again, electrical engineers pooh-pooh this idea but it's part of my "audio philosophy" - so I solve this by using multiple insulated strands.
  

And, David, before you rush off and buy some expensive speaker cable, let me regale you with the tale of the $10K stranded speaker cables that a mate of mine bought about 10 years ago. These were from some "much lauded" Yanqui company ... so I took round some high current (stranded) auto wire that I had bought from Bursons - and, amazingly, this sounded better than his cables! So he subsequently sold the US cables!

Regards,

Andy

[Addicted to music]

I've just realised that any cables with reptilian names tend to bring out the sibilance in the recording! Anything nth of $5.00 a metre tends to do this!

Oh why, O why do people pay >$5.00 for speaker cables?

Edited December 27, 2012 by pchan

[caddisgeek]

Do they make cables for Linn TT's?

[Phantom]

Anything nth of $5.00 a metre tends to do this!

Oh why, O why do people pay >$5.00 for speaker cables?

Statement one is not only wrong but cannot be proven

Statement two: because adults, in charge of their own lives can makes decisions about their own systems without needing approval from an internet poster

[wolster]

djb will be loving this.

[andyr]

Do they make cables for Linn TT's?

Linn certainly have their own phono cable ("T-cable", I think) but I believe any DIN-plug equipped phono cable will fit a Linn arm as well.

Their motor power supplies (AC & DC) have standard IEC sockets - so any power cord will fit.

Regards,

Andy

[andyr]

djb will be loving this.

But we haven't heard from him? His OP was late afternoon on Christmas day ... maybe he indulged himself a bit too much at Christmas dinner and has gone to bed for a week, to sober up?

Regards,

Andy

[caddisgeek]

But we haven't heard from him? His OP was late afternoon on Christmas day ... maybe he indulged himself a bit too much at Christmas dinner and has gone to bed for a week, to sober up?

Regards,

Andy

at the gym

[caddisgeek]

Linn certainly have their own phono cable ("T-cable", I think) but I believe any DIN-plug equipped phono cable will fit a Linn arm as well.

Their motor power supplies (AC & DC) have standard IEC sockets - so any power cord will fit.

Regards,

Andy

but are they expensive enough?

[djb]

Andyr, I hear some very expensive Din plus phono cable doesn't fit Linn TT s the way it should!