Sam1 Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Gday All, After purchasing some LCD-2s back in February I promised myself I'd upgrade my headphone amp (still running my trusty Little Dot MK V). After many vinyl upgrades.. cart.. phono.. and just purchasing vinyl, it's time for a new amp that's going to power these beauties to their full potential. Have been doing a lot of reading, and I've come to the conclusion that the Beta22 is going to be the best bang for buck - atleast from what I've come across so far. Only down side is that this is DIY, and I have absolutely no clue about electronics! All I know is I like good music Has anyone personally used the amp? If so what were your thoughts? I'm also wondering if anyone knows a good builder in Australia who'd be willing to go through it with me and build it for me, at a price ofcourse! And perhaps someone has heard something better in a similar price range (being DIY, anything from $600 to $2000) Appreciate any input! Cheers guys, Sam Edited September 13, 2012 by Sam1
Krispy Audio Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Hi Sam. I've heard a few different Beta22 builds, the best being a 4-board/ Be careful with costs, once you start adding boards and a chassis, you can easily approach $2k. If you're new to it, I reckon you should try AMB's M3 instead. It's far cheaper, far easier, and far quicker to assemble. If you balls it up, you won't be as upset! Build it nicely and you should recoup your money if you want to sell and try the B22. Putting the BoM together is one thing, but paying someone to build it will almost be cost prohibitive unless it's a love job. There has been one for sale on this forum a few months ago, could be worth digging up and seeing if it's still for sale? Whatever you decide, good luck!
kunalraiker Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I'd rather spend the money and get the Leben CS300, much better headphone amp IMHO and not DIY. Could be cheaper too! Plus you get a 2 channel amp as a bonus
hochopeper Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Hi Sam, Could you outline for everyone what process you went through to come to the conclusion of the B22? Not saying that it wouldn't do the job, I am just interested in your selection criteria before making any other suggestions. Is your source only phono? Do you ever want more than one input? Do you have a pre-amp that has volume control or should the headphone amplifier do this too?
Krispy Audio Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 I'd rather spend the money and get the Leben CS300, much better headphone amp IMHO and not DIY. Could be cheaper too! Plus you get a 2 channel amp as a bonus DIY doesn't mean inferior. For anyone curious, you simply have to hear one. Have you heard one at all? Also, the B22 can also be built as a power amp (18W @ 8ohms unbalanced, or 50W fully balanced @ 8 ohms), or as a preamp. It's very versatile.
hochopeper Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) Regardless of diy or commercial I believe for a purchase like this you want to set out what your budget, performance and input/output requirements and expectations so that you can select the best matching item from the market ... Edited September 13, 2012 by zman
Nada Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 conclusion that the Beta22 is going to be the best bang for buck - atleast from what I've come across so far. Only down side is that this is DIY, and I have absolutely no clue about electronics! the beta22 has a superlative reputation Id suggest looking at the DIY build thread on head-fi before committing Getting informed turned me off trying to do a beta22 build myself If it was me I d be looking for a second hand Beta22 or Phoenix or new and available the NFB-6 is a clear bargain.
kunalraiker Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 DIY doesn't mean inferior. For anyone curious, you simply have to hear one. Have you heard one at all? Also, the B22 can also be built as a power amp (18W @ 8ohms unbalanced, or 50W fully balanced @ 8 ohms), or as a preamp. It's very versatile. I have heard one, infact with the same headphones, and then settled for the Leben with the LCD2's. Nothing against DIY, sometimes they are more valued then commercial designs, eg-good DIY speakers, or decent mods. B22 built as power amp doesn't mean much as far as powering headphones are concerned, so clueless as to why you bring that up.
Krispy Audio Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 Just mentioned the power amp because you did about the Leben. Interesting about your audition experience, as with all this stuff it's about synergy with the cans as well. I usually have a preference for tubed (or hybrid) headphone amps.
hochopeper Posted September 13, 2012 Posted September 13, 2012 (edited) I have had some thoughts overnight. So while I enjoy the ambience of qld rail's facilities I will jot a few down. Here is a short list of other diy designs that I would consider a reasonable alternative to the b22. Sjöström audio qrv09 OPC from Diyaudio 'the wire' the headphone amp, input can be bal or se to suit your source. Both of these I believe should be sufficiently transparent that the subjective flavor of source will dominate flavor of the amp. They are perhaps less popular in the headfi crowd but measurements of each are spectacular. I dislike the virtual ground concept applied in the b22 design, any virtual ground will never be as good electrically as a properly built return path. I have the bal-se 'the wire' and am about to build a se-se version for another DAC that I am building. I think with lcd2s you'll want an amp with some gain, but not much, 2-3x probably is sufficient. I use a gain of one with my recabled AD900s. Edited September 13, 2012 by zman
Sam1 Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 Hi Guys, Thanks for the responses! I will try address them all and answer questions. I understand that there is a lot of work in building the B22, I have done a good solid day or so of reading about it, I personally can't wrap my head around any of it to be honest - hence why I was looking for people who may be interested to build one for me. I have been eyeing a Leben for a very long time, unfortunately 3.5k is a little out of my budget, even if I sold my current head phone amp and integrated amp I'd still not be able to afford it - I could save a little longer I guess . Something that does slightly put me off though is the tubes, I understand that they end up dying after some thousands of hours, but I've never heard anything tubed and am definitely interested.. Would love to hear your opinions on the 300xs vs the b22. The reason I was (see below) fairly certain about the B22 is the overwhelming responses about it, being cheap depending on the configuration you build. Cheap as in a $1600 build can easily punch about the 5/6k range, obviously this is subjective but it is certainly interesting with the amount of response. Another reason was people say that it is a very neutral amp, I think with my current set-up if I went any warmer it would be black, but I do love a warm sound as my ears are extremely sensitive to treble unfortunately. After making the post last night I began thinking, really I'm not certain on the B22, I'm not certain on anything, there are so many offerings out there for the LCD-2s and the Amp threads on other forums such as Head-fi are just so long with so many different opinions. And unfortunately alot of the recommended amps just aren't available for audition in Australia, things like the offerings from Violectric, RSA, Woo Audio etc etc I think I'm even more confused about what to get now than I was before - sometimes I think I read to much into these things without actually listening, but as I said can be a bit hard down under! Cheers Sam
hochopeper Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 I had a bit more of a think about the economics of getting a diy project built by someone. From the op's perspective he can get something bespoke and optimised specifically for his source and output device of choice, though he is placing faith in the builder and designer and other user's feedback. The value that he places on this set of pros/cons is up to him. For a builder he must decide if he is doing it for the love of electronics or as a business. The guy doing it for love will be able to significantly devalue the time of the guy who does it for profit. I typically will only build things for myself but at the moment depending on the proffered amp I have enough spares here to build some of the amps I have mentioned and was considering selling those as parts only because I have no foreseeable use for them. I also do not want to devalue someone's business, though I doubt many would make a living from custom build audio electronics? Conundrum. Also there is significant safety concerns regarding the construction of things that interface with mains voltages. I would be inconvenienced if I hurt myself with something that I built, if I hurt someone else due to an oversight, that is a far more significant concern! Sam, these thoughts might be worth consideration in your preferred solution to the new headphone amplifier problem.
Sam1 Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Hi Zman In response to your questions about requirements, I run all my components into my CA 650A integrated. I run the tape / rec out into my headphone amp so only one set of RCA inputs would be required really. Outputs are interesting, I was thinking about using a standard 6.3mm output, but after a bit of reading I understand that having a separate XLR output for each channel (I believe this is balanced or unbalanced? I always get them mixed up). I understand that this config gives a bit more power and therefore slightly increased SQ, but this is just from what I've read. To your latest post, the only thing I worry about having it built is getting it fixed if something goes wrong in the long run. I would prefer to have someone who legitimately enjoys DIY electronics, I believe this adds to the flavour so to speak, a bit of love never goes astray. If I did end up with the Beta 22 I actualyl had an idea for the faceplate where I would get the builders signature engraved onto it which I thought could be pretty cool, just an idea though! Cheers EDIT: My source is 99% vinyl yes, I hardly listen to any digital media besides films and podcasts. Sometimes I go back and revisit digital albums I bought 5+ years ago which is always fun Edited September 14, 2012 by Sam1
hochopeper Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Is the volume attenuated on the tape/rec output of the 650A? Do you use the CA 650A volume control at the moment or the volume control on the LD MkV? Regarding balanced cables for the headphones, I agree that balanced is preferable and allows, subjectively, better 'control'. XLR's are used for balanced connection and 6.3mm will be single ended. In a cost no object world where I was using a custom made cable I would use a 4 pin Lemo connector on the output for balanced connection to each headphone. XLRs are bulky and unwieldy IMO. But you're then up for custom cable costs and or adapters to connect to other people's equipment if you ever want to use your headphones on a different amplifier ... or sell them. I had my headphones recabled by 'qusp' from head-fi since he's just 20min drive from me and despite my penchant for taking almost anything apart, headphones are just not something I want to take apart. It was he who recommended the Lemo connectors and I agree with him but until I have finished my dac/amp builds that are in progress (for my own stuff I procrastinate like nobody's business and fuss over irrelevant details) I'm using a 3.5mm connector. CP_ (KrispyKables) would be another one to ask about cables if that is a consideration! Edited September 14, 2012 by zman
Sam1 Posted September 14, 2012 Author Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Hi Zman, Not sure what you mean by volume attenuated by 650A, but I control the volume on the Little Dot. Moving the volume control on the 650a does nothing for the loudness of the signal going to the headphones. I will check out these Lemo connectors now - are they an XLR alternative? Edited September 14, 2012 by Sam1
hochopeper Posted September 14, 2012 Posted September 14, 2012 (edited) Hi Zman, Not sure what you mean by volume attenuated by 650A, but I control the volume on the Little Dot. Moving the volume control on the 650a does nothing for the loudness of the signal going to the headphones. I will check out these Lemo connectors now - are they an XLR alternative? Yep that's what I meant. So you will need something that controls the volume in your new headphone amp too then! I'll see if I can dig up the part number of the Lemo connector that qusp recommends. Yeah they are an alternative to XLR but since they are not 'standard' then you need them fitted to all your equipment that you want to use together. EDIT: Lemo datasheet here - http://au.mouser.com...1/APAC/1329.pdf - The ones that I think are the 'ultimate' headphone connector with standards ignored is - EGG.0B.304.CLL [socket] + FGG.0B.304.CLAZ [plug] 4 connectors is all that is required for balanced headphone cable + and - for the driver in each headphone. Cheers, Chris Edited September 14, 2012 by zman
Sam1 Posted September 19, 2012 Author Posted September 19, 2012 Hi Guys Have been doing a little reading lately, has anyone heard the Decware CSP-2 and the Taboo combo? I'm really interested in these amps especially for the price and opinions / reviews on them, and it would allow me to get rid of my current integrated. I would give a link to the site but it seems it's down at the moment. Cheers Sam
gavtron Posted October 17, 2012 Posted October 17, 2012 I had the b22 with the LCD-2's and then upgraded to the Leben cs300 (such a good combo) - the b22 was still my pick over the older burson amp, violetric v200 and audio-gd's. It also comes down to personal taste The Decware stuff has good reviews but I have not heard it.
ians Posted October 18, 2012 Posted October 18, 2012 If you are committed to DYI then here is another option for the Audeze LCD2: http://www.bottlehead.com/store.php?crn=224&rn=433&action=show_detail I'm tempted myself as the price is reasonable, there is an online forum for answering questions during the build process and they have a great reputation if you use Google to check out reviews, etc.
Duckman Posted October 21, 2012 Posted October 21, 2012 I've had both a 3-board B22 and Leben C300XS with the LCD2, and think they are about as good as each other with differing strengths. IMO Leben has slightly better tonality, the B22 had a more stable sound stage. Then I bought a V200. It stayed with me the longest and I really liked it, but never tested it against the other amps like Gavtron did. I trust his ears too (as well as my own), but still believe the V200 an excellent match for the LCD2.
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