B&W 804 Diamond & Luxman.....sublime or ridiculous?

[rantan]

Hi all.

As some may know, I have been looking around for speakers lately and I have listened to pretty much whatever I could have in Adelaide.

I am now in the process of making a short list and paring it down from 6 to 3 possibles.

I had a quick listen to some diamond 804 speakers,but the dealer wouldn't let me take them home under any circumstances, even though we were in the trade together in the past.

Too many bad experiences apparently, but in any case, I heard them and loved them, even on crappy [ for the asking price ] and expensive Marantz mono blocks.

He claims that the 804 will work very well with the Luxman L550AII, but another dealer says it is a definite non starter as a synergistic combination, even though he sells the B&Ws as well.

Personally, I don't see why they wouldn't suit one another and I have heard the same Luxman that I have with a wide variety of speakers and it always sounded wonderful and always seemed to be doing it easily. I also understand that however good they may be, 20 Class A watts won't re-define the laws of physics even if it sounds like 100, but from what I can see or read or hear, the B&Ws are not a demanding load. Sure, they will reveal a crap amplifier in short order and the source and ancillaries need to be premium, but in my case all those boxes are ticked.

The other speakers on my short list would not even begin to be any kind of problem with the Luxman, but I cannot eliminate the 804s until I am sure that the pairing is not viable

For those who may have an interest, please discuss and feel free to be as opinionated as you like

[Guest JohnA]

Shame you cant do an inhome audition.

To me it will be a deal breaker unfortunately.

As to weather they are a good match with your Luxman, suppose you can take the luxman along to the store for another audition.

Any other B&W dealers in your area you can try?

[GraemeB]

Why don't you take the Luxman to the B&Ws then? Should give you a fair idea of synergy, or otherwise. Not as ideal as home demo, obviously, but if they've piqued your interest would be better than not hearing them together before deciding.

[Cafad]

How much current is that Luxman packing Rantan?

[RockandorRoll]

Ive only played with the cheap end of B&W (683's) but found the more power they had the better (4308 vs Bel Canto S300)

But i also like the idea of quality watts, big difference in sound between my 4308 and VT50

Enjoy the hunt Lindsay, will be interested to see what you end up with

[rantan]

Thanks guys.

@John. I agree with the deal breaker thing, I am beginning to think that myself and there is only one dealer in Adelaide

@GraemeB I could take the Luxman to the shop, but it wouldn't be my room, source, cables etc and when one is spending this amount of money, I believe that a home trial is mandatory.

@ Cafad. I am not sure of the current measurement in terms of amperes produced, but suffice to say that it is much more than adequate for most speakers [ no....not Maggies ]

To be honest I am somewhat pissed off about the lack of demo, but I guess no means no and old associates or not, that is the way it shall be.

[rantan]

Thanks Nathan. I appreciate the support and I agree that quality watts beat quantity watts any time

[Gordon Macfarlane]

Hi L , I have 703's , now in the ht since I got the Gale 401's.

The biggest prob with the B&W's imho is that they need loads of high current watts to begin to get them to sing.

When I started with the 703's I had a Rotel RB1080 poweramp and it simply couldn't drop enough current to make the 703's sing.

I am about to rety the 703's in comparison to the Gales now that I have a Rotel Michi power amp. The Michi has 2 1KVA transformers and has a peak current output of 150 amps according to the specs.

Bottom Line , unless the Luxman is happy with circa 3ohm loads I would walk away.

I also found that getting the 703's to sound 'musical' was difficult.

Anyway just pm me if you want to chat.

G

[Ray H]

Rantan;

I auditioned the new 805d last week with a few amps, including the top of the line Classe pre/mono combo. The staple amp was a 100 watt Luxman SS integrated (not sure of the model but he mentioned it was around 6k) which the Shop recommended as being quite a good combination, I agree, it sounded in control, detailed and non-fatiguing. The 805d were reasonably new, but still sounded pretty impressive, almost up to purchase as I have been close to buying a pair of these for a while.

I would characterise the sound as being good on detail, essentially neutral with good dynamics and very good bass for a stand mount. The mid range was aIso notable for realism,detail and timbre. I am going to go back in a few weeks to see how they sound, hopefully they will have opened up a little more.

I agree that the new d series appears to be quite an improvement over the last series. One random point I will note is that I dont think the veneer finish of the current range is as nice or as well executed as the earlier versions, which is perhaps unusual, but an observation nonetheless take it as you will.

I had a reasonably long conversation about the finish of the speakers with the shop owner. We also spoke about the 804, which seems like a good option in a lot of ways, apparently the 804 has never been a very good seller for some reason, it has been opined that because it does not have the full FST midrange (not sure if the current 804 is different in this regard) that most people go higher up the range or are happy with the 805.

How does this relate to your question's, I would say that the Luxman/805 combo was pretty good actually and can't see why the 804 would be drastically different. Generally I think the new 800/d series are very good speakers. If you have heard any of them and the house sound appeals, I dont think you will go too far wrong with the 804.

regards,

Edit: just saw that your Luxman is the 20 watt Class A. I imagine it could sound even better up to a point,but the output/bass could suffer at higher volumes, depending on the room, levels and music taste - I think an audition of the two together is mandatory.

Edited September 11, 2012 by Raeyz

[Lil Caesar]

I guess it comes down to your taste in bass delivery. I was driving my SF Luito's with 50PWC Class A monoblocs for a while and it was delightful however I ended up going for more power in order to hit deeper and faster in the lower octaves. If bass slam is not critical to your tastes then 20 Class A Luxman watts may be enough.

[Guest Willow]

The other speakers on my short list would not even begin to be any kind of problem with the Luxman, but I cannot eliminate the 804s until I am sure that the pairing is not viable

Can you utilise this other dealer as leverage , perhaps a deposit on good faith , the B&W dealer either wants a sale or not ?.

but another dealer says it is a definite non starter as a synergistic combination, even though he sells the B&Ws as well.

Did this dealer expand on this comment ?

As long as you are not playing at high levels this pairing should work well with your Shirley Bassey collection , Rantan.

[betty boop]

rantan, I agree wiht gordon, personally I'd be going a gruntier in watts amp with the B&W 804D's. different case if were going with the 805D though as not as demanding and might get away with them. Last I heard them were off the EC i5 rated at 120wpc and sounded very nice.

the new diamond series are very good in my opinion

Edited September 11, 2012 by :) al

[rantan]

Thanks G.

Your post is very enlightening and I think I am now beginning to get a handle on what the interstate dealer was telling me and that you have confirmed and that is not so much actually driving them and making sounds but getting them to sing and make music.

I feel slightly foolish because it makes so much sense in that it is that it is quite difficult to get a speaker to sound musical as opposed to just playing a disc and making a noise. I should know this from experience and I think senility may be setting in.

Its funny though when one gets better advice from a friend [ expected ] and a dealer never met [ not expected ] than a dealer who has been known to me for 25 years.

Will PM you later.....thanks mate.

Anyway, this is good stuff and I would still love to hear other's opinions so let's keep this going

[Telecine]

I think that it would worth taking you amp to the dealer and demo the combination.

I thought that you had more than 20 WRMS. Frankly, I don't think that is enough for any of the B&W 800 series speakers.

I am running an older pair of B&W 803's and have run them with a few different amps. It wasn't until I purchased the right amp that they really came alive. I suspect that many never hear the B&W 800 series at their best because of poor amplifier matching.

[rantan]

Great thread ,thanks guys.

@Willow. My local dealer doesn't seem to have any concept of leverage. I offered to pay a negotiated price with 50% deposit upfront and a 14 day trial for money back if not suitable and goods unmarked and in original packing. The answer? "We don't do home demos ,full stop. I managed to stay polite and exited the shop slowly.

The interstate dealer did expand and said that he flat out wouldn't sell me the 804s to use with the Luxman, unless it was the 100 watt LV 505U. He really seems to know his schitt and also give a schitt and I should know that he is /was correct. That's a lot more than I can say for the local dude who won't be getting any of my money into his bank account.

One last thing...................Shirley who? I am a blues gitar man so don't be sassin me wit dat Shirley jive.

@LC. I agree, it comes down to bass and as G said musicality.

@Al The new 804s should be an easier load than the new 805s, but I may never know and it's probably about watts for once and not current [ although this is usually the opposite ] I listened to the 805s as well but I thought the 804s were a far more of a complete speaker in every way.

Edited September 11, 2012 by rantan

[rantan]

Seems like a logical consensus is forming and I should have known all along. This just shows the power of wanting something to work even when you know in the back of your mind that it won't.

@ Telecine. Thanks J. Wise advice indeed

[Guest Willow]

@Willow...................Shirley who? I am a blues gitar man so don't be sassin me wit dat Shirley jive.

I managed to smile and ease out of the joint slowly.

Ahh , well then it's WLM Divas and tubes.

Go on , you know you want too.

[rantan]

Ahh , well then it's WLM Divas and tubes.

Go on , you know you want too.

It might end up being WLM, but it won't be tubes.

My Luxman ain't goin' no place.

[Briz Vegas]

I have the old 804s with the ca200 CJ amp (185 into 8 ohm and 300 into four). As a control amp it worked quite well but I found adding an active pre made a significant difference. I heard the 804d with Electrocompaniet and thought my setup sounded better, and this was prior to the pre. It's not just the speakers, it's everything together that makes the sound you hear. I went up stream in the end and ordered some Vivids. I may or may not keep the 804, not sure what they would be worth although I am assured resale is still good. B&Ws definitely have a sound to them. The 804s was a relatively warm sounding speaker, the 804d went for an open sound with more top end emphasis.

[rantan]

Just one thing I should clarify here.

The speakers in question are the newest edition 804 diamonds. In some of my posts I have described them as "the 804s", meaning the generic plural and not the 804 S which is the previous model

Just thought I should mention this even if it doesn't change the answer to the question

[eagle]

Although I don't have first hand experience with the 804 Diamond, I do have experience with the 802 Diamonds. I agree that the B&W 800's do like power but it depends on your listening level. The newer diamond series are much more transparent and a bit more forward then the older D series. I tried the 802's with lower power amps and they still sounded O.K. It was only when I pushed the volume up that I could tell that the control was suffering and the sound then became more strident. Choice of music also comes into play here.

My gut feel is you will want more power in the longer term but I guess you can always work on that ....

[maximus]

Seems like a logical consensus is forming and I should have known all along. This just shows the power of wanting something to work even when you know in the back of your mind that it won't.

@ Telecine. Thanks J. Wise advice indeed

Hi Rantan,

I can recall Len Wallis in one of his blogs stating that one of the best value for money setups he heard was the combo of :

NAD 565bee cd/musical fidelity class A,15watts/ and an B & W 805d). In his opinion sublime so not is all lost with the Luxman.

Auditioning, even though not accurate should give you enough feel of what the lux/805d will present.

As long as the dynamics are all there, I can't see why it wouldn't work at home.

cheers Frank

[Peter_F]

Hi Lindsay,

My experience with B&W's has always been taming what I perceive as a bloated bottom end.

They do need a lot of current to control the bottom end, but are also very much room dependent. Maybe in some applications the room is more important than amplifier?

IMHO if you are not able to audition them in your room, and with your system, then I would consider the purchase to be a very big risk. Personally I would just niggle the salesman and give him the sh*ts until he realises you're serious and he arranges a home audition for you! Maybe even consider haggling on the demo set, subject to a satisfactory home demo? I thought in this market the customer was holding all the cards?

Cheers, Pete.

[rantan]

Hi Lindsay,

My experience with B&W's has always been taming what I perceive as a bloated bottom end.

They do need a lot of current to control the bottom end, but are also very much room dependent. Maybe in some applications the room is more important than amplifier?

IMHO if you are not able to audition them in your room, and with your system, then I would consider the purchase to be a very big risk. Personally I would just niggle the salesman and give him the sh*ts until he realises you're serious and he arranges a home audition for you! Maybe even consider haggling on the demo set, subject to a satisfactory home demo? I thought in this market the customer was holding all the cards?

Cheers, Pete.

I couldn't agree more Pete.

In this whole exercise the room will be the major factor and although I am leaning towards being persuaded that the Luxman may not have the welly to kick the arse of the 804 diamonds, it seems like I will never get to actually find out one way or the other..

You are right about the buyer's market too but his guy won't budge and I have known him for over 20 years. we are obviously not mates or anything like that, but we worked for different retailers in the same city and often had cause to converse and interact so you would think that would count for something.

I reckon I will give it one more try and say something along the lines of..................... it's a home trial with [ negotiated ] payment up front and a right of return for full refund [minus $50 for his trouble ] after 14 days if not suitable, but honestly, I don't fancy my chances. If he says no after this then I will bid him farewell and never go there again. For any folks following this trail of misery the name of the Adelaide retailer for B&W 800 diamond series is VISION LIVING so go there by all means bit don't ask for a home demo or you will either discover or re-discover the meaning of implacable opposition to home demos.

One thing I will say is that he did let me listen for quite a while because he knew that I knew what I was doing and didn't need any hand holding ,brochures, pep talks or baby sitting and that I wouldn't vaporise his amp or speakers so he was free to get on with anything else he had to do.

It looks like I may move on to something else and there is still plenty out there so it's shoulder arms and into the abyss

[olderas]

Hi Rantan,

I can recall Len Wallis in one of his blogs stating that one of the best value for money setups he heard was the combo of :

NAD 565bee cd/musical fidelity class A,15watts/ and an B & W 805d). In his opinion sublime so not is all lost with the Luxman.

Auditioning, even though not accurate should give you enough feel of what the lux/805d will present.

As long as the dynamics are all there, I can't see why it wouldn't work at home.

cheers Frank

I have both the 805S and 802DII speakers and the 802's are much more efficient than the 805's, so if 15 watts drove the 805's then that should be enough for the 802's (and presumably the 804's), what may be important in the full range speaker is the damping factor, for control of the bass.