Recommend me a DAC!

[heman_]

What sorts of DACs exist that give a ballsy dynamic sound.

Im not too familiar with dacs as Im primarily a vinyl guy. I have the WE dac recommended on Darko's site but I still find that Im not really getting close to the level of overall satisfaction from my CDs as I do from my vinyl.

although vinyl is my primary medium I dont really buy in the debate of vinyl inherently sounding better, but would rather think that each medium perhaps reflects the equipment that it is played on. Ive got quite a good stack of CDs that I want more from but have no idea where to look.

priorities are dynamics, naturalness, tone, energy etc (ie. not resolution, flat freq. response)

From what I can gather the audionote dacs could be the direction I look in but there must be more dacs built in a similar way.

any ideas or suggestions are welcome

thanks

oh yeh- doesnt have to be a dac, a cd player would do just find as well

Edited August 31, 2012 by heman_

[Nada]

for CD 44.1/16 files and coming from vinyl listen to a DAC with a low jitter feed, a TDA1541 S2 chip, tight power regulation and a great tube output or try this

Edited August 31, 2012 by Nada

[olderas]

Hi Herman, I too may be looking for a DAC. One of the essential features has to be the ability to decode all formats. 192/24, 96/24, etc. and maybe True DSD 2.8224 MHz or even double DSD 5.6 MHz. The future is here and it is DSD downloads. I was absolutely blown away by a piece recorded on a Korg in DSD from the vinyl disc. There's the thing, if you enjoy vinyl, just record your lp's when everything is set up spot on, and forever have the vinyl sound from a digital source!! At this point it would be crazy to limit yourself to 44.1. BTW the Korg MR2000 is not stratospheric in price, I think under 3k. May be an option for you as it will allow you to archive your vinyl?? As a pure DAC I think there are better but the features and software Audiogate may just be the decider.

[georgehifi]

What sorts of DACs exist that give a ballsy dynamic sound.

priorities are dynamics, naturalness, tone, energy etc (ie. not resolution, flat freq. response)

oh yeh- doesnt have to be a dac, a cd player would do just find as well

Look at any of the older (and the odd expensive new ones) mulitbit players and dacs, they give rhythm (dynamics,punch & tone) back to music, that todays better measuring Sigma Delta dac chip seem to rob.

Some multibit chips to look for :

PCM56, PCM61, PCM63, PCM1702, PCM1704.

TDA1541

And if you can combine those with the PMD100 or 200 hdcd filter chip you have what I consider to be the best Red Book cd playback.

You will have to do your home work and find which players/dacs use these dac chips and filter chips and see which players have implemented them well by reading reviews and asking questions on forums like this.

Here is the massive list of players/dacs done by Vassili that use all different kinds of dac/filter setups.

http://vasiltech.nm.ru/CD-Player-DAC-Transport.htm

Remeber do your homework well and you will be rewarded with what you have asked for, and stay away from today's Sigma Delta stuff, it bores you to death (but it is smooth and measures well but what happened to the music?).

Cheers George

[Saxon Hall]

for CD 44.1/16 files and coming from vinyl listen to a DAC with a low jitter feed, a TDA1541 S2 chip, tight power regulation and a great tube output or try this

I had a look at the link for the Valab DAC you linked to. Have you heard one? It does sound like they have put a lot of thought into the design.

[georgehifi]

Here is what Thorsten Loschec, (the designer of the hidiously expensive AMR Reference CD-77 player which uses, yes, the older multibit TDA1541 chip) has to say about Sigma Delta/Delta Sigma compared to Multibit.

http://www.diyhifi.org/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=2241&p=46749#p46746

Cheers George

[Anthony John Colbert]

The Burson DAC is supposed to be a ballsy dynamic sort of sound.

[kdoot]

Ballsy, dynamic sounding DAC for a vinyl lover? Surely you need to hear a PDX.

[statman]

Here is what Thorsten Loschec, (the designer of the hidiously expensive AMR Reference CD-77 player which uses, yes, the older multibit TDA1541 chip) has to say about Sigma Delta/Delta Sigma compared to Multibit.

http://www.diyhifi.o...&p=46749#p46746

Cheers George

Bear in mind that this opinion is 5 years old, post 3 is probably a lot more relevant to what you want today and in the immediate future. Get yourself a good modern dac, and if you want ballsy sound make sure your electronics, speakers are capable and use the DSP of Jriver or similiar to have whatever sound you want. Restrict yourself to technology that is 20 years old and you will always be wondering if there is more to what you are hearing. Not that there is anything wrong with vintage, I have a very good TDA1541dac I keep as a collection piece and enjoy it sometimes, its nice to look back to the past, put on the rose tinted glasses and fog out ,but do you really want to live there?

[Nada]

What sorts of DACs exist that give a ballsy dynamic sound.

Confuded yet?

So many opinions that are polar opposites.

Whats your budget?

[bhobba]

Yes indeed your budget is the important thing.

Of course I agree with Kdoot - you should try and hear a PDX - but it may be outside your budget.

Now for a shameless plug - will be re-advertising my USB only Level 1 PDX for $1800.00 shortly.

Thanks

Bill

[georgehifi]

If you want another later 2012 reason to go Multibit rather than Sigma Delta listen to this (with a beer, it takes a while) seminar on why the old multibit dacs sound better than the newer Sigma Delta dacs, here is a seminar video at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest by the designer (Martin Mallinson) of the ESS Hyper Stream dac chip which he says now can finaly compete with the older much more expensive to produce multibit dacs.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.c...bed/1CkyrDIGzOE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cheers George

Edited September 1, 2012 by georgehifi

[Vortexjah]

You should check out the lampizator dacs. I have read a fair bit into them on the forums, not so much the technical side, but the impressions. One user had a level 2 lampizator while he waited for his level 4 to be made and one comment really stuck out for me ' wow! I have waisted my last 30 years on vinyl, this sounds better than vinyl''.

There is now a level 2.8 for sale, you get get the USB add on which connects via is2 ( it's an exd USB module) for an extra 400 euro, so I think all up it's around 1900 euro.

[kdoot]

If you want another later 2012 reason to go Multibit rather than Sigma Delta listen to this (with a beer, it takes a while) seminar on why the old multibit dacs sound better than the newer Sigma Delta dacs, here is a seminar video at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest by the designer (Martin Mallinson) of the ESS Hyper Stream dac chip which he says now can finaly compete with the older much more expensive to produce multibit dacs.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.c...bed/1CkyrDIGzOE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cheers George

Wow. George, my respect for ESS just shot up a huge amount after watching that presentation. I'm going to have another listen to some high quality SABRE DACs when I get a chance.

[georgehifi]

Wow. George, my respect for ESS just shot up a huge amount after watching that presentation. I'm going to have another listen to some high quality SABRE DACs when I get a chance.

Yes they do deserve a listen, but as he said they believe they have now finaly got up to the sound quality of the older properly implemented Multibit dacs, this is why I still love the older players/dacs that you can buy cheap s/h on the market, you just have to look on the link ( http://api.viglink.c..._13464654162491 )

I posted earlier and find ones that are Mulitbit IE: PCM56, PCM61, PCM63, PCM1702, PCM1704, TDA1541.

and hopefully use PMD-100 or 200 filter chips also.

Cheers George

Edited September 1, 2012 by georgehifi

[kdoot]

Well yeah, I'm one of those who claims to be able to hear the difference between multibit and sigma-delta, and I definitely prefer multibit. But if ESS is on the right track, they may be the future shining light since buying 2nd-hand is not a long-term viable option.

I'm presently using a Metrum Octave and my favourite thing is to feed it true high-res masters. High-res multibit NOS is amazing.

[georgehifi]

I'm presently using a Metrum Octave and my favourite thing is to feed it true high-res masters. High-res multibit NOS is amazing.

Yes then if you are not dedicated to Red Book as I am (1000's), and are starting on the Hi Rez path then definitely the high end ESS dac chips will be the way to go.

To be honest when anyone has demonstrated SADC or Hi Rez to me and then compared it to Red Book +hdcd with old properly implemented Multibit dac chips with PMD100 or 200 filter chips, the Red Book sounds better to me than the SACD (yawn) and on par with the Hi Rez.

There are allot of older players/dacs out there to be picked up S/H and the cream for me would be the hideously expensive Naim CD555 circa 2007-8 http://www.stereophile.com/cdplayers/207naim/index.html but are still getting big dollars if they ever come up.

Cheers George

[techspurt]

Bear in mind that despite what the publicity for the Metrum states, its still only a 16bit DAC chip they're using in it. So sending more than 16bit material to it without dithering it first is going to result in quantization distortion at low levels.

Sending higher bit rates to it might work better because firstly its FR is going to be flatter - less droop. But also the imaging components will be pushed further up in frequency and might just result in lower IMD in your tweeters.

<edit> Totally agree about DSD George - huge yawn for its compressed dynamics.

Edited September 1, 2012 by techspurt

[New Sensations]

heman_ - with what will you be feeding the DAC? If it's a PC/Mac, you might need to give some thought to clocking devices too.

[Nada]

If you want another later 2012 reason to go Multibit rather than Sigma Delta listen to this (with a beer, it takes a while) seminar on why the old multibit dacs sound better than the newer Sigma Delta dacs, here is a seminar video at the Rocky Mountain Audio Fest by the designer (Martin Mallinson) of the ESS Hyper Stream dac chip which he says now can finaly compete with the older much more expensive to produce multibit dacs.

<iframe width="640" height="390" src="http://www.youtube.c...bed/1CkyrDIGzOE" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

Cheers George

heres some interesting bits in that talk

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1149s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1436s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1482s

the human ear can detect noise below the SNR

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1646s

engineers can get it wrong

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1646s

3.2 terabytes of data per second in vision - hearing likely to be the same

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1622s

noise shaping

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=1CkyrDIGzOE#t=1878s

but I still havent heard a Sabre "hyperstream" chipped DAC I like - they all had an odd upper mid-range timbre - so I cant wait to hear a descent implementation

[davm]

I haven't heard it, but if I was looking this one that I would audition:

Mytek Digital Stereo192-DSD-DAC

Opens up lots of possibilities with downloading and playing HiRes audio.

[techspurt]

I was going to say something about implementation - you put your finger on it. I take it that the ESS DAC designers think that's 'SEP' (Douglas Adams' shorthand for 'Somebody Else's Problem). With my limited experience of designing output stages for multibit DACs, its a tough problem. There's no way in the world I want to design an output stage for an ESS because its orders of magnitudes harder than for multibit. The clock rates and edge speeds are truly horrendous by what I can see. Good luck to any designer - perhaps only a transformer can cope without generation of IMD.

[heman_]

Wow a lot to read. Maybe I should have clarified this at the start...but I won't be using any hi res and will only be fed from a cd player playing redbook. USB isn't necessary

[techspurt]

Definitely when only considering redbook CD, what George said about multibit DACs. Both AMR and Lightharmonic use different DACs internally, depending on the input sample rate. They've both come to the conclusion that redbook sounds best played back on a multibit DAC chip.

[Nada]

Wow. George, my respect for ESS just shot up a huge amount after watching that presentation. I'm going to have another listen to some high quality SABRE DACs when I get a chance.

remember that video is an infomercial - like the dude says, we need to be sceptical of what he presents and your post is marred by the "wow" sign

let me know when you track down a quality Sabre DAC we can listen to please (theres one not far from your place but the dudes handmade it and wont lend it out to me)

Well yeah, I'm one of those who claims to be able to hear the difference between multibit and sigma-delta, and I definitely prefer multibit.

that took years of dedicated training but i never gave up on you

....if you ....are starting on the Hi Rez path then definitely the high end ESS dac chips will be the way to go........

I disagree with that blasphemy recommending the ESS sigma-delta chips there George.

Lets face it, despite all the spin from the ESS dude the Sabre is still just a delta sigma noise shaper. Its like making diamonds from faeces. Definitely a technical and commercial possibility but you still only end up with diamonds best for industrial applications. They both measure fine but just are'nt art.

For those wanting high-res I think using PCM coding with the PCM1704 is the smart choice allowing 24bits (more then enough word depth I would suggest) and 768kHz (off even the radar currently in commercial music offerings).

Audio-gd now have 24/192 feed to their PCM1704 DAC's which is arguably more then enough.

The Phasure does an impressive 24/768 into the PCM1704.

For TDA1541 lovers (most vinyl guys dig it) then the Audial does 16/192 I would suggest for most would also be great (with a preamp for volume control) but Im only speculating - I haven't heard it.

Wow a lot to read. Maybe I should have clarified this at the start...but I won't be using any hi res and will only be fed from a cd player playing redbook. USB isn't necessary

OK.

You need a CD player.

Get a second hand one with a TDA1541 chip if you like vinyl type warmth and body.

Look on ebay I would suggest. Stay away from stuff with opamp output or do the Lampi mod to run it in NOS mode with a tubed output.Then update the clock. Thats afforable and likely to give you exactly what you would appreciate.

Sorry about the low SNR earlier on but if you ask such a vague question ......

Cheers.

Edited September 1, 2012 by Nada