Nakamichi Dragon Electrostatic Owners & Discussion Thread

[THOMO]

These speakers are recording fussy though.

Some recordings that I thought were quite good sound quite poor on these.Others that I thought were quite good sound really good.Steve Earle- Townes for example.

And good vinyl sounds really good.

So they are no allrounders.More like a sonic magnifying glass.

I am going to have to colour code all my recordings so I know which ones sound good on these.The percentage is still quite high but I suspect they will suit around a third of my recordings from a collection already culled heavily for sound quality.Whereas probably twice that percentage sound good on my Gales and slightly less than that on my Tannoys.

The amps in these seem to be crackers.No sign of SS type dryness or tonal bleaching so using a decent digital source direct into them is fine.

Edited August 24, 2012 by THOMO

[Steve M]

The 100w amps in the Naks are STRONG too Jon, last night I was playing some Madonna trance-y dance tracks and other Reggae material (Dub Syndicate) at 1.00 o'clock volume levels and there was no compression or distortion from either the panel or the woofer. Although, I did hear some mechanical extreme excursion noises from the bass box, so had to back it off. At these insane levels, it's probably still not as capable as a big box-cone speaker array as I feel there could be a bit more meat-n-potatoes in the midrange and mid bass, all got to do with more motive force from a good cone set up or a larger stat like Dr Good Vibe's.

Then again, the Naks are all about finesse and overall capability in a neat home friendly package, a design brief they excel at IMHO.

Steve.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Steve M

[Grimmie]

Have to agree with all of Steve's enthusiastic praise, they are a beautiful speaker, brilliantly executed design and great sound. Would agree that they may not suit all types of music and / or recording quality but for those who play the best stuff these will bring out the best in it.

Dr GV's may do better in sound quality which of course is OUR main criterion, but how many members could sneak those into the living room unnoticed by you-know-who. They make the Quad 2905's look like a pair of i-pods. (Don't get me wrong Dr GV I would LOVE a pair myself, - if I owned a mansion)

[Dr Good Vibe]

Grimmie, got a modular set in the back of mind have got the metal done but it means that you can go up or across in panels, the size is I think 950mm x 500mm each, frames are threaded so they bolt together and turn on or off axis individually.

Where the hell I'll put them don't know but it needs to be tried.

[Dr Good Vibe]

Here's the panel mentioned not finished.

[Grimmie]

The actual construction method and science behind stat panels and how their shimmering can produce such powerful sound seems to me something of a black art, not somehow natural. Cone / box speakers are far more straightforward and logical to me, so I do admire your depth of understanding and ability to construct such mysterious beasts.

I've been a fan of stats for years, since I heard them in Vince Ross' showrooms ML, Vantage with Pathos Logos amps and Ayre CD player, they made a lasting impression for sure. I'd like to bet I would enjoy those panels of yours too.

[Grimmie]

By the way, is all that workshop, equipment and the panels shown in the pics all yours? - and you?

[ausskipper]

I am fortunate enough to own a set of these. I have owned several exotic loudspeakers, including the Martin Logan models, both hybrid and CLS2 pure electrostatic.

These outperform every loudspeaker I have ever owned. Living in N NSW is not the most favourable location for els speakers, the ML's would die in the ... when the humidity went over 80%,

and I had to have 2 sets of new panels. in the end I just gave up.

Not so these extraordinary speakers. They have a somewhat diminished 'sweet spot' because of the flat panel design, but the detail these things reproduce is just sonic sorcery, and expect to get remarkable stereo imaging

in other rooms as the sound seems to reflect off windows and walls with some astounding results. (I hear a perfectly reversed stereo image in my kitchen!)

I have seen how these were constructed. The LF drivers are mounted in a beautifully constructed cast metal enclosure within the base.

If you have a favourite amplifier they can take a high level input, and will exactly reproduce that sound.

(I prefer the line input, however)

The SPL's these speakers reproduce is amazing, and the blend between panel and bass drivers seamless, always a problem with hybrids. And the bass is tight.

And they look gorgeous.

[Steve M]

Welcome on board the good ship Stereonet, Ausskipper ...hope you stick around.

Another ringing endorsement of the Naks from a longstanding electrostatic user, your comments are spot on.

Agreed, Martin Logans do sound good, but it seems the panels are designed to fail, I have seen and heard sooo many heartache stories about ML panels, especially the older ones. Still, I suppose its good for their after-sales profits?? I have heard that the coating on the membrane of the earlier MLs is a bit unstable and 'floats off' over time due to the electrostatic attraction created by the charged stators. With the Naks there are no such issues as Rob Mackinlay's coating formula is very stable from what I have experienced with the ER Audio ESL-3 tested over several years of use.

It seems that both you and Thomo are experiencing some sort of dislocated (positive) imaging qualities from the Naks. He also said that it images excellently in his kitchen (while he is cooking) away from the hot spot listening zone. I also alluded to this effect earlier as some sort of dipole energy response from these unique panels, which seem very capable at producing high frequencies energetically, meaning that the sound floats into other areas of the house. Also like you, I have tried connecting my Class A, 90w/ch push pull 300B-845 tube monobloc amps ($6K) into the speaker inputs, and it is amazing how it lets that signal thru' cleanly without degradation. However, I also concluded that there is no great benefit to be had with this arrangement as the on-board amps in the Naks are 'crackers' as Thomo has mentioned, not to mention the electricity saving of not running the monster valve amps!

As to their prodigious bass output, try playing Madam Medusa ~ UB40 on vinyl at high levels (this track will expose the spkrs' limits, btw) ...the way the Naks pressurize the room with low bass is quite amazing.

Steve.

Edited August 27, 2012 by Steve M

[chucky3042]

Hello Everyone

Thank you all for such nice comments about the Nakamichi/ Whise Dragons, it actually feels great getting some belated recognition that these are world class speakers designed by a great Australian design team. Unfortunately as Steve indicated the path from a management point of view was disastrous to put it kindly.

All observations as to the nature of the design and performance were largely accurate and as noted by one forum member - every design feature right down to the rear chimney and shape was very deliberate and not just for looks. Only one small correction is that the dispersion of these speakers is in fact far better than the curved stator logans. The curved stator improves dispersion from a psychoacoustic point of view (looks curves thus the sound radiation pattern is curved - wrong). In fact because mylar is not stretchable it is not capable of radiating like a pulsating spherical surface such as a curved array. At best the surface folds creating low frequency harmonics. If you don’t believe me try curving a piece of paper and see how much side deflection occurs.

The Dragons use a narrow 35 mm wide closer gap (higher output) central grid to improve dispersion. Yes it’s flat but at least it guarantees lower distortion. Check your physics out for a wave front hitting a narrow gap.

In regards to stock we basically have run out with maybe 1 new (not sure) and 2 demo sets, one with slight cosmetic imperfections. I asked one of the former Immersion board members if they still had a bunch of sets sent to Europe when we were closing down and the reply was they were dozed into the ground as landfill (idiots). Upon checking with one other person in Europe this may not be so and they could be in storage, I will know in a week and if so we will get them back to Australia.

For all those who have a set please count yourselves as lucky as only around 100 have been sold (by us). If there is enough interest maybe one day we could look at a MK 11 model but frankly the R+D costs to produce these units was extreme.

I still have the core of the design team that produced these speakers together at Reality Design Pty Ltd and we will shortly release a bookshelf version of the Dragons that really do share many aspects of the technology (see attachment). Please note that this year we won the 2012 CES award for Innovation in Home theatre with the “Sonic Blade†speaker design for Liquid Base Pty Ltd. In addition for a sneak peak of what we are really doing please checkout
http://www.quadrapho...ound-technology

[Commercial Advertising Removed]

Thank you so much for your comments – it really does matter to me as we all put heart and soul into the design.

Regards

Charlie Van Dongen

[ausskipper]

Wow, what an interesting website! And some remarkable product knowledge. Makes a refreshing change.

Decades ago I had a pair of loudspeakers which, like the Citroen DS automobile and the exquisite French liner 'Normandie', broke all the rules of engineering and design. It was as if the book on design, construction,and in the case of propulsion for the Normandie, was completely re written. We now find, decades later, both these designs have influenced automobile and ship construction, to the point that, in the Normandie's case, most modern ships use the 'turbo-electric' drive system adopted by the French builders in the 1930s. And almost every ship built now has a bulbous bow, despite the fact that the finished Normandie looked like something from another planet to ship enthusiasts in the 1930s so radical was every aspect of her appearance, both inside and out.

Today, over 80 years after its spectacular debut in New York, this ship is generally regarded as the quintessential ocean liner, the 'high water' mark of ship design and construction which will never be equalled.

The irony was that a young Russian naval architect Yourkevitch approached Cunard in 1930 with a revolutionary hull design with a bulbous bow with the proposition to apply it to Hull 534. Cunard summarily dismissed him with the attitude ' we know how to build ships son' and they built the Queen Mary, which was really just an evolution of the Titanic, with it's near vertical 'stem bar' bow. The French, however, took this young man seriously, particularly when this streamlined hull used 20% less energy than conventional ships in tank tests. His hull design was chosen unaltered, with it's dramatic overhang which actually 'cushioned' the huge N Atlantic swells and pushed them away from the vessel, rather than simply 'slicing' through the water. Under the waterline there was hardly a straight plate. The thing cost a fortune to build,double the QM, and yet this ship was to influence ocean liner design from the day it was launched. ( if you observe pictures of these two great ships alongside each other in New York in the 1930s the Queen Mary looks like a dowager aunt in comparison to the uncluttered,dramatic lines of the Normandie, which looks as if it were 'at speed' even when stationary)

Every single aspect of the French ship was newly created. Even the massive 4 propellors were directly driven by huge 40,000 horsepower electric motors,which could be instantly reversed,and on sea trials the 80,000 tonne ship stopped in it's own length and at 33 knots looked 'like a gull flying over the water' The other probable reason for the choice of this power plant was because the French would have had to opt for Parsons steam turbines, with the associated reduction gearboxes which would have had to be imported from the UK! Sacre Bleu!

It took nearly 40 years for Cunard to finally acknowledge the perfection of this design, and the QE2 hull bears a more that uncanny resemblance to the original Normandie hull. (No one, incidentally, has yet been able to replicate the ship's breathtaking art deco interior, vast public rooms unimpeded by funnel uptakes and real 24k gold plated handrails.. but that's another story)

The comparison to loudspeaker design may seem fairly obtuse, but it isn't really.

The loudspeakers I referred to earlier were made in the 1970s, they were made by ESS in Sacramento, CA, and featured a remarkable new midrange / HF driver, the Heil 'Air Motion transformer' (sound as "clear as light" so it was proclaimed) They, too broke all the rules and compared to their contemporaries sounded crisp, detailed and quite unlike any other loudspeaker,with their bi-polar design and stylish walnut truncated pyramid cabinets. The lightning fast AMT was a poor match to the woofers of the time, unfortunately. However the 'Heil' air motion transformers are still highly sought after, and sell on e-bay for $4-500 a pair.

I have restored a pair of these AMT 1's, which I rescued from a crack house in San Francisco, sans AMT units, for $100. I shipped them back on the seat of a 57 Thunderbird I had also bought on the trip, and imagine my surprise when the container was opened in Brisbane to find some longshoreman had lovingly wrapped them in blankets and securely lashed them to the container bulkhead. (I had expected the worst.. the ship went through a Force 12 gale en route!)

With new caps in the crossovers and re foamed woofers from a firm in Melbourne, and a pair of AMT units bought on e-bay, these amazing, unconventional speakers still sound remarkably good, with their limitless top end and fast response. Julian Hirsch of 'Stereo Review' magazine fell under their spell too, and didn't want to give them back. They still remain one of the most favoured 100 audio products of all time.

Once in a while, like these examples I have given, someone comes along with a design so revolutionary, so different, and so perfect that often we can't get our heads around the fact even when the thing is staring us in the face.

I believe this to be the case with the Nakamichi Dragons/ Whise HA 1500's. The designers, like some of the greatest creations of the last century,have completely re designed the loudspeaker, and inbuilt a substantial class AB amplifier to ensure they're driven properly. One day these extraordinary loudspeakers will get the accolades they so rightly deserve.

They have none of the failings of other electrostatics, produce a sound stage that is thrilling with the sound seemingly 'launched' into the room with effortless ease, and look as dramatic as the bow of the Normandie, and make the spirits soar.

To this day, no other electrostatic loudspeaker even comes close.

.

Edited August 29, 2012 by ausskipper

[ausskipper]

ESS AMT1 and the fully restored end product...

[Saxon Hall]

Thanks for your last 2 posts ausskipper, Bloody fascinating. Amazing what you learn just by poking around here!

[chucky3042]

Hi Ausskipper

Thanks for your comments on the Dragons.

Re the air motion tweeter/ mid, I visited Neil Causey (hope I spelt that right) in on the North side of Melbourne a year or 2 ago and I was VERY impressed on some large speakers that he built with the Heil driver. Virtually unlimited SPL (if thats what turns you on). If any one is interested I could dig out his details, but yes they are expensive.

Regards

Charlie

[sir sanders zingmore]

<snip>

Once in a while, like these examples I have given, someone comes along with a design so revolutionary, so different, and so perfect that often we can't get our heads around the fact even when the thing is staring us in the face.

I believe this to be the case with the Nakamichi Dragons/ Whise HA 1500's. The designers, like some of the greatest creations of the last century,have completely re designed the loudspeaker, and inbuilt a substantial class AB amplifier to ensure they're driven properly. One day these extraordinary loudspeakers will get the accolades they so rightly deserve.

They have none of the failings of other electrostatics, produce a sound stage that is thrilling with the sound seemingly 'launched' into the room with effortless ease, and look as dramatic as the bow of the Normandie, and make the spirits soar as if one has seen the Sydney Opera House for the first time in real life.

To this day, no other electrostatic loudspeaker even comes close.

.

I'm not quite sure I get what is so *revolutionary * about these speakers. Striking design, sure. By all accounts great sounding too, but what is truly new about them?

[THOMO]

Perhaps more evolutionary than revolutionary.

They combine electrostat,active ampification ,isobarik bass units and digital equalistaion/ crossovers all in one package.

You can buy each of these technologies separately but as far as I am aware nobody else combined them all together in a commercial design.

Edited August 29, 2012 by THOMO

[sir sanders zingmore]

Perhaps more evolutionary than revolutionary.

They combine electrostat,active ampification ,isobarik bass units and digital equalistaion/ crossovers all in one package.

You can buy each of these technologies separately but as far as I am aware nobody else combined them all together in a commercial design.

Not exactly the same design/implementation, but Sanders Electrostats are fully active with digital crossover

http://www.sanderssoundsystems.com/products/electrostatic-speakers/model-10

[Steve M]

G'day Whatmore,

The Nak Dragon speakers are quite innovative in their own way, namely:

- the sexiest looking shape of any electostat out there, of course this is subjective and only IMHO.

- epoxy moulded body with a flawless piano gloss finish, not a single nut or bolt in sight.

- the only commercial stat to use 3.4 micron thin Mylar membrane for ultra speed an detail.

- the only commercial stat to use a dedicated 35mm x 1200mm long treble strip running top to bottom, a bit like the treble ribbon in an Apogee Scintilla. The treble intensity, extension and dispersion is like no other stat I have heard including the big Soundlabs.

- sealed twin 8" isobaric bass in a steel box including a bandpass chamber with almost perfectly integrated bass with the panel.

- aspects of the Neville Thiele designed crossover, superb amplification, rear brace/chimney and electronics are also very innovative.

- even the front vertical edges have a horn-like flare to disperse the sound like a horn speaker.

All of which doesn't mean a hoot if it didn't sound good, but it delivers big time sonically!

Steve.

Edited August 29, 2012 by Steve M

[sir sanders zingmore]

I'd love to hear them properly set up. As I mentioned, I felt that the pair I heard were far from what I think they are capable of.

[Dr Good Vibe]

Hi Ausskipper

Thanks for your comments on the Dragons.

Re the air motion tweeter/ mid, I visited Neil Causey (hope I spelt that right) in on the North side of Melbourne a year or 2 ago and I was VERY impressed on some large speakers that he built with the Heil driver. Virtually unlimited SPL (if thats what turns you on). If any one is interested I could dig out his details, but yes they are expensive.

Regards

Charlie

Sure it's not Gary, I think your talking about his big boxes and the tHeil on it's own stand cause I helped him years ago build the boxes if the same ones they were Hebal brick and slab. He was at that time trying to beat my active system hope he did.

[metal beat]

Hi Steve

Beautiful speakers for sure. Always wanted to hear electrostatic speakers at home. For the going price they sound like exceptional speakers.

Do they have a phase button or similar if feed a phase inverting pre amp?

Cheers

Edited August 30, 2012 by turntable

[frankn]

G'day Whatmore,

The Nak Dragon speakers are quite innovative in their own way, namely:

- the sexiest looking shape of any electostat out there, of course this is subjective and only IMHO.

- epoxy moulded body with a flawless piano gloss finish, not a single nut or bolt in sight.

- the only commercial stat to use 3.4 micron thin Mylar membrane for ultra speed an detail.

- the only commercial stat to use a dedicated 35mm x 1200mm long treble strip running top to bottom, a bit like the treble ribbon in an Apogee Scintilla. The treble intensity, extension and dispersion is like no other stat I have heard including the big Soundlabs.

- sealed twin 8" isobaric bass in a steel box including a bandpass chamber with almost perfectly integrated bass with the panel.

- aspects of the Neville Thiele designed crossover, superb amplification, rear brace/chimney and electronics are also very innovative.

- even the front vertical edges have a horn-like flare to disperse the sound like a horn speaker.

All of which doesn't mean a hoot if it didn't sound good, but it delivers big time sonically!

Steve.

I'd love to hear these - reviews sound great and they certainly turn heads.

One thing - I think Quads use a similar or possibly thinner membrane than these. (3microns)

[proftournesol]

Actually playing these at the moment.

Where did the Caliburn go?

[chucky3042]

Hi Everyone

I agree that these speakers are mostly evolutionary with a few additional "revolutionary" aspects that I have not scene before. The rear chimney started life as a problem that given the initial concept drawings by Nakamichi we could not achieve the required bass extension to 24 Hz. I came up with the idea of adding a styled rear column to add some more volume to the bass chamber, during the stying process I worked out that the chimney could be put to use as a rear reflector to deliberately modify the polar response.

A real advantage of this rear reflector chimney is that the speakers can be located right up to the wall in addition if you measure the frequency response from the sides, rear and front it is flat on all 4 sides! Then the concept hatched to use this chimney to mount the dual 100w amplifiers and to be the worlds biggest amplifier heatsink. Finally it strengthened the structure and looks good. It was a real win, win situation with the only downside of additional cost.

The very high maximum SPL that can be achieved with these speakers is the result of considerable development on the panel structure and the use of round rod stators to minimise the electrical stress whilst improving the general “flow through/ turbulence reductionâ€. Many new and old techniques were used in the panels including conductive rubber coupling, milled plastic frames, non parallel sides and the use of nodal standing wave damping points.

The woofer designed by the great (if a bit mad ) Zel Velican of Whise is remarkable in that it is fully balanced (no need for silly carpet spikes) and used a technique of filtering the bass very steeply above 300hz to dramatically reduce distortion. In addition it is rear firing to reduce upper harmonics further and permit better integration with the panels. You do not get the Martin Logan effect of hearing bass below and mid/ treble on top.

For those interested I have attached a plot of the woofer response and a pdf of the panel we designed for the speakers. Please note that the polar response is much better than the pdf suggests as the effect of the chimney cuts in. Sorry about the resolution of the pdf.

Regards

Charlie

Woofer response test.BMP

Standard Solutions ESL100V.pdf

[chucky3042]

Hi Everyone

I agree that these speakers are mostly evolutionary with a few additional "revolutionary" aspects that I have not scene before. The rear chimney started life as a problem that given the initial concept drawings by Nakamichi we could not achieve the required bass extension to 24 Hz. I came up with the idea of adding a styled rear column to add some more volume to the bass chamber, during the stying process I worked out that the chimney could be put to use as a rear reflector to deliberately modify the polar response.

A real advantage of this rear reflector chimney is that the speakers can be located right up to the wall in addition if you measure the frequency response from the sides, rear and front it is flat on all 4 sides! Then the concept hatched to use this chimney to mount the dual 100w amplifiers and to be the worlds biggest amplifier heatsink. Finally it strengthened the structure and looks good. It was a real win, win situation with the only downside of additional cost.

The very high maximum SPL that can be achieved with these speakers is the result of considerable development on the panel structure and the use of round rod stators to minimise the electrical stress whilst improving the general “flow through/ turbulence reductionâ€. Many new and old techniques were used in the panels including conductive rubber coupling, milled plastic frames, non parallel sides and the use of nodal standing wave damping points.

The woofer designed by the great (if a bit mad ) Zel Velican of Whise is remarkable in that it is fully balanced (no need for silly carpet spikes) and used a technique of filtering the bass very steeply above 300hz to dramatically reduce distortion. In addition it is rear firing to reduce upper harmonics further and permit better integration with the panels. You do not get the Martin Logan effect of hearing bass below and mid/ treble on top.

For those interested I have attached a plot of the woofer response and a pdf of the panel we designed for the speakers. Please note that the polar response is much better than the pdf suggests as the effect of the chimney cuts in. Sorry about the resolution of the pdf.

Regards

Charlie

Should have noted that the pdf was for the panel only - not including the rear chimney.

regards