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Posted
Drizt i will respond later get ready to rumble

I thought the request for you to add something useful would prove to be too difficult. Pity.

Mods. Want to stop the troll before he comes out from his cave?

Posted
I thought the request for you to add something useful would prove to be too difficult. Pity.

Mods. Want to stop the troll before he comes out from his cave?

Its all in your head drizt

Personal attacks ???? its not your style

will respond later too busy objectively testing tv's

  • 2 weeks later...
Posted

In March 2012 Stereophile there is a tribute to the late William Z Johnson of Audio Research fame. I was amused when objective / subjective listening came up in this article. Part of the arcticle is as follows

Bill Johnson was one of the first designers to realize that good measurement don't guarantee good sound. He observed that steady-state measurement techniques won't reveal how a component will handle the dynamics of recordings of actual music. As a result, he was among the first to advocate subjective listening tests as the ultimate performance standard, and instituted a listening test for every unit about to leave the Audio Research factory.

You would think if objective listening actually existed, it would be in a factory making hifi equipment ensuring consistency in amplfiers and their sound. It would seem that even in this environment it is called subjective listening.

thanks you ball boys, thank you linesmen

Posted

If your really do want to learn about the topic perhaps you should be willing to listen to the answers.

O well, we tried to help you learn but you were unwilling to try.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink".

Posted (edited)

Of course subjective listening is the ultimate performance standard - I'm not sure I've seen anyone, including Drizt, Arg et al argue otherwise.

The only aspect that I can see that sustains this agonising, ongoing argument is whether the subjective listener is influenced by factors other than the sound in making their assessment and the methods that might be used (or, alternatively, scornfully disparaged) to prevent this.

Subjective/objective, measurement/listening, proof/evidence/data - all these terms are being used differently by the protagonists, which doesn't help the discussion.

So, different people prefer different methods to help them achieve the sound that satisfies them. Well surprise surprise!! That would apply to just about any life decision. The fact that the approaches chosen by some are rejected by others should be seen as an illustration of human diversity - not a frustration.

It's meant to be fun, not a political debate or a holy war.

Wouldn't it be nice to see the main adversaries in this ongoing discourse enjoying a few drinks, laughs and some music together? I like to think that remains a possibility - otherwise the forum itself is diminished as a result.

And I do expect they would find more common ground than they might expect.

Just felt I had to throw in my 2c worth for the hell of it.

Edited by Tony M
Posted
Here endeth the lesson.

Amen

yeah well as humans it would be quite difficult to provide a very subjective or controlled response to a thread like this I would think :) not that I know what is wrong with that. hooray that we are humans not machines :)

hooray that we are thinking feeling, enjoying :) human beings touched and impressed by the power of music :)

Posted

100% agreed with Tony and Al.

Unfortunately the incumbent thread solved nothing and [ rightly or wrongly ] was merely divisive.

R.I.P thread.

Long live music.

Posted
If your really do want to learn about the topic perhaps you should be willing to listen to the answers.

O well, we tried to help you learn but you were unwilling to try.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink".

People in glass houses

Posted
In March 2012 Stereophile there is a tribute to the late William Z Johnson of Audio Research fame. I was amused when objective / subjective listening came up in this article. Part of the arcticle is as follows

You would think if objective listening actually existed, it would be in a factory making hifi equipment ensuring consistency in amplfiers and their sound. It would seem that even in this environment it is called subjective listening.

thanks you ball boys, thank you linesmen

yeah well important isnt it. especially since that is what people buying their kit (myself as arc owner) would be doing isnt it. enjoying listening to music very subjectively. I would say the ultimate test. measure all you want.... test all you want. whether objectively or controlled or whatever but ultimately you have to look at it from the customers perspective. just like a cook that tastes every dish. Youd hope every maker of quality electronics actually listened to the thing as a customer would before putting in a box !

Posted
People in glass houses

I think you have your metaphors muddled.

When you do actually want to learn more about it send me a PM. I will be happy to walk you through it.

Posted

One can be very objective or controlled in the methodology, testing or measurements of music, however when you use your ears to determine best it is always subjective as everyone may have a different opinion.

Of course this thread solved nothing, much like a lot of the threads. All good fun thou. And of course when/if we meet we would have some beers and a good laugh.

We are not English soccer hooligans with broken bottles at 10 paces :)

Posted

Late Friday night I was having one of those rarish listening sessions (after coming home from seeing Bonnie Price Billy) that make all this hifi stuff seem worthwhile, those moments that keep us coming back to this hobby (that I suspect most of us have had otherwise we'd be hanging out in photography or petrolhead forums.) There were only a few moments where I thought about the sound that evening (and never really the equipment), those fleeting thoughts when the other side of my brain popped back in for a second and remarked to itself something about the nature of the sound that I was finding enjoyable/engaging/believable.

If I have a memory of certain system traits that I was valuing that night, by your guys reckoning are these subjective or objective criteria? They are the ones I try remember and look out for when I audition equipment. Yet my preferred method of demoing, how I look for these, is best done I find by relatively short A/B switches (audio memory is shot), and yeah preferably blind (I tend to imagining thing that arent there even when straight), with the above criteria in mind. The idea of trying to judge equipment in a shop or someone else's house in terms of varying degrees of emotional involvement to me makes no sense, it seems an impossibility to hope for the requite concentration and musical engagement in these environments, and if/when it comes it seems to care not for the equipment. But I think I know what I like based on what I most appreciated in those moments when I was at my most emotional and least discriminating.

Can anyone tell me what side of the fence I'm on, it's a bit confusing?

Posted
If your really do want to learn about the topic perhaps you should be willing to listen to the answers.

O well, we tried to help you learn but you were unwilling to try.

"You can lead a horse to water but you can not make it drink".

Depends what horse some are smart enough not to drink bs

Posted
One can be very objective or controlled in the methodology, testing or measurements of music, however when you use your ears to determine best it is always subjective as everyone may have a different opinion.

So you have been arguing against/with yourself?

That is essentially what we have been saying all along.

You can be objective in determining if a difference exists.

You can then be subjective in determining which one you prefer.

Posted
Late Friday night I was having one of those rarish listening sessions (after coming home from seeing Bonnie Price Billy) that make all this hifi stuff seem worthwhile, those moments that keep us coming back to this hobby (that I suspect most of us have had otherwise we'd be hanging out in photography or petrolhead forums.) There were only a few moments where I thought about the sound that evening (and never really the equipment), those fleeting thoughts when the other side of my brain popped back in for a second and remarked to itself something about the nature of the sound that I was finding enjoyable/engaging/believable.

If I have a memory of certain system traits that I was valuing that night, by your guys reckoning are these subjective or objective criteria? They are the ones I try remember and look out for when I audition equipment. Yet my preferred method of demoing, how I look for these, is best done I find by relatively short A/B switches (audio memory is shot), and yeah preferably blind (I tend to imagining thing that arent there even when straight), with the above criteria in mind. The idea of trying to judge equipment in a shop or someone else's house in terms of varying degrees of emotional involvement to me makes no sense, it seems an impossibility to hope for the requite concentration and musical engagement in these environments, and if/when it comes it seems to care not for the equipment. But I think I know what I like based on what I most appreciated in those moments when I was at my most emotional and least discriminating.

Can anyone tell me what side of the fence I'm on, it's a bit confusing?

You're definitely on the realist side of the fence :)

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