How do ensure that the music you are using to test with contains all the content you want? I.E. Dynamics (macro and micro), frequency extension, decay, imaging, etc etc?

Did you read my post properly? It's up to the TEST SUBJECT to decide the music as they are trying to prove the HYPOTHESIS.

If they don't pass the test it's a NULL result, nothing is proven or disproven, simple as that.

Doesn't mean the same TEST SUBJECT can't repeat the test in the future with possibly different music.

I.E. Music with improved Dynamics (macro and micro), frequency extension, decay, imaging, etc etc.

You seem to be getting confused between TESTING and TRIALING again.

PS: I am getting very upset and starting to feel like I again want to YELL!

Edited February 14, 201214 yr by Dr X

Pretty much.

It is taking away what you see and what you know so that you can use your ears and only your ears to judge what you hear.

The idea is to remove bias and make the findings repeatable.

Sighted testing is completely flawed in that you know what is under test and / or you can see what is under test.

Everyone (there are no exceptions) are subject to bias (many different forms).

The 'only' way to remove that bias is to do objective testing.

It is a very very simple topic. Yet many people make every excuse under the sun on why it is not so.

You can either hear a difference under controlled tests or you can not. There is nothing more to it.

People that trust their ears are not afraid of objective testing.

"you can use your ears and only your ears to judge what you hear"

if that is what you want then you are processing and judging what? frequency responce, micro and macro detail, dynamic coherence, floor noise level, harmonic amplitude. seeing you are so sceptical of trusting the combination of 2 senses together then surely you would be better served by only using waterfall plots to generate opinions and eyesight to confirm the results. the use of listening in person is redundant. human interpretation of a piece of music for evaluation purposes would only be relevant after what point is reached?

Dr X, I have obviously upset you but allow me to elaborate on the offending post.

To me, hi-fi is an enjoyable hobby. To go to the lengths that Drizt described and to which you seem to also embrace, would turn a hobby into an obsession. I simply don't want to go down that path. There are too many other enjoyable aspects of life outside of hi-fi that are simply more important to me.

If you felt that my post was having a go at your choice of involvement in our hobby, then I assure you it was not. It was simply trying to get some perspective into the discussion.

OP asks "What is objective or controlled listening?"

Is the "objective' part necessary? The important part to some is the controlling for biases. You could still level match and wear the blindfold etc, then score A vs B by the number of goosbumps or tears rolling down the cheek if you so chose.

Mario, when you are flicking between one cap and another, listening to the same Dianna Krall song for the millionth time, are you really looking for and gauging an emotional response? Of just for the "tones and timbers" etc? I think most of us believe we know what kind of presentations get us into the music more, but I dont think any diy'er could claim he gets there by gauging the emotional impact of every cap and wire change?

Every ... single ... one.

Awesome did you keep any data from your objective listening? Are you prepared to share the data?

Opamps make me cry!

Don't apologise to me wolster, I don't give a **** and I'm not upset.

If you feel all apologetic all of a sudden, then you may want to aplogise to the person your post was "having a crack at".

If you don't want to then don't, either way my response/observation to your post stands.

Awesome did you keep any data from your objective listening? Are you prepared to share the data?

No and If I did I wouldn't share it with you anyway.

OP asks "What is objective or controlled listening?"

Is the "objective' part necessary? The important part to some is the controlling for biases. You could still level match and wear the blindfold etc, then score A vs B by the number of goosbumps or tears rolling down the cheek if you so chose.

Mario, when you are flicking between one cap and another, listening to the same Dianna Krall song for the millionth time, are you really looking for and gauging an emotional response? Of just for the "tones and timbers" etc? I think most of us believe we know what kind of presentations get us into the music more, but I dont think any diy'er could claim he gets there by gauging the emotional impact of every cap and wire change?

I don't listen to Diana krall

Opamps make me cry!

That is a good one datafone full of emotion all i need is Diana krall she makes me cry without opamps.

Don't apologise to me wolster, I don't give a **** and I'm not upset.

If you feel all apologetic all of a sudden, then you may want to aplogise to the person your post was "having a crack at".

If you don't want to then don't, either way my response/observation to your post stands.

Actually, I didn't apologise. I didn't need to. I just clarified my post and the same clarification applies to Drizt.

OP asks "What is objective or controlled listening?"

Is the "objective' part necessary? The important part to some is the controlling for biases. You could still level match and wear the blindfold etc, then score A vs B by the number of goosbumps or tears rolling down the cheek if you so chose.

Mario, when you are flicking between one cap and another, listening to the same Dianna Krall song for the millionth time, are you really looking for and gauging an emotional response? Of just for the "tones and timbers" etc? I think most of us believe we know what kind of presentations get us into the music more, but I dont think any diy'er could claim he gets there by gauging the emotional impact of every cap and wire change?

I used objective as that was the term the gents were using as the be all and end all of being able to identify the outcome.

I think that is the point, if you are listening to something for the millionth time ( why would you? ) you are no longer objective.

You may have an objective process to get you to a comparative listening test, however ultimately it will and should be in the long term what is subjectively better to you.

A DIY will IMO ultimately judge the changes subjectively.

Edited February 14, 201214 yr by turntable

Actually, I didn't apologise. I just clarified my post and the same clarification applies to Drizt.

Actually you're right, awesome. Your "clarification" changes nothing about your original post for me, but there's no need to respond because I simply don't care.

God, I wish people would stop using the word "proof" in relation to these sorts of experiments/listening tests or whatever.

The most you can say is something like "we got this result and the statistically estimated likelihood it was due to chance alone was less than X%".

About 30 years ago, I got all excited about my new Ocos speaker cables feeding my Apogees - they sounded just great. Unfortunately, on blind testing I couldn't pick a difference. I returned the cables and haven't blind tested anything since.

It's a hobby and I can remain ignorant/deluded if I choose to - deep down I know it could be a bit silly, but I don't care. My empathies lie somewhat equally with those who chose a similar approach and those of a more rigorous bent. I could easily defect to the "other side" on a whim as long as it didn't stop me enjoying listening to music.

I feel no need to have an "entrenched position", but I really can't see this as fickle - seems more like an appropriate way for me to approach an immensely enjoyable past-time that isn't, after all, a matter of life and death.

Great post Tony.

I couldn't agree more.

No and If I did I wouldn't share it with you anyway.

I guess i have to take your word for it which is subjective due to no objective data provided..........

but I dont think any diy'er could claim he gets there by gauging the emotional impact of every cap and wire change?

Silver wire destroys emotion in my system BD it becomes artificial and loss of timbre,texture and tonality anyway welcome back from the hills of east of perth,Just maybe you might find a emotion plugin

Actually you're right, awesome. Your "clarification" changes nothing about your original post for me, but there's no need to respond because I simply don't care.

If you didn't care you wouldn't have called me a total prick.

If you didn't care you wouldn't have called me a total prick.

If I care or don't care, well what does that matter?

FYI my observation in post #43 has not changed one iota.

I guess you're just going to have to find a way to live with it!

No problem.

Let your post #43 stand as a good example of how to post on SNA.

Maybe the good Dr. needs to read the rules again?

Maybe It's the heat up north has him a bit off?

No problem.

Let your post #43 stand as a good example of how to post on SNA.

Don't worry too much wol, I've been a "total prick" plenty of times before and might very well be again in the future.

But if we all join hands, form a circle and close our eyes for a minute, then maybe we can find a way in our hearts to tame our "total prickdom" in the future, together!

Peace, Love, Happiness.

Maybe the good Dr. needs to read the rules again?

Maybe It's the heat up north has him a bit off?

I reckon I'd make a really good kindergarten teacher.

Silver wire destroys emotion in my system BD it becomes artificial and loss of timbre,texture and tonality anyway welcome back from the hills of east of perth,Just maybe you might find a emotion plugin

I've sometimes suspected I might be a bit emotionally shallow (or that a lot of bands really do suck). Nice to know it might just be the silver hookup wire I'm using

Did you read my post properly? It's up to the TEST SUBJECT to decide the music as they are trying to prove the HYPOTHESIS.

If they don't pass the test it's a NULL result, nothing is proven or disproven, simple as that.

Doesn't mean the same TEST SUBJECT can't repeat the test in the future with possibly different music.

I.E. Music with improved Dynamics (macro and micro), frequency extension, decay, imaging, etc etc.

You seem to be getting confused between TESTING and TRIALING again.

PS: I am getting very upset and starting to feel like I again want to YELL!

OK Doc. I didn't understand that a test showing a null result was considered as a non result.

BTW it was an innocent question. From my perspective the testing procedure was well structured except for the material being used for the test. No need to get upset.

NFA