JVC HD100 vs Marantz 15s1

[TubeBoy]

Looking at the following two projectors and would like to find out which is better based on some of your experiences?  I know the HD100 was on show at the spore hifi show but unfortunately I missed the demo.  Any users of the projectors above care to share some of the strengths/weaknesses of these units?

 

Thanks.

[Doggie Howser]

HD100 has higher native contrast marginally better black levels

 

15S1 has higher ANSI contrast and shd have better punch.

 

For the same budget, get the 15S1 if you aren't susceptible to DLP rainbows

[TubeBoy]

What is the difference between ANSI contrast and native contrast?  May I know why you recommend the Marantz unit over the newly released JVC?

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

[Doggie Howser]

What is the difference between ANSI contrast and native contrast?  May I know why you recommend the Marantz unit over the newly released JVC?

 

Appreciate your thoughts.

 

From initial reports, it looks like the HD100 colors will still be the "enhanced" type from the HD1 ie it is larger than the standard colorspace and closer to Digital Cinema specs.

 

I found that when I watch most BR and HD sources on my HD1, the colors are usually (but not always) OK, but when I watch SD stuff, some of the greens can be distracting and it is generally over saturated. My wife doesn't mind it though. Maybe it is psychological for me cos I read too much AVS. That said, I find a lot of plasmas are just as saturated as the HD1. For me, it is acceptable if I dial the Saturation/Color settings down -15, but this is at the expense of "color" purity and fidelity.

 

Anyway, if you are a stickler for color purity as the mastering process intended, I believe the 15S1 will be a better bet.

 

The HD100 will offer better blacks. My own HD1.. a couple of times, I forgot to turn it off cos I hadn't realized cos it was soo black with no source on the input.

 

To be honest, the "definition" of native contrast and ANSI are very similar, but here's the layman difference from what I can see.

 

The HD1/100 shines in primarily dark scenes. Like in Pirates 1 BR when there is a single candle in the scene, so the rest of the room is almost black but you can make out the shadow details and the room even though it is very dim.

 

In the same scene on DLPs, the candle itself is very very bright aka punchy (enhancing the ANSI contrast), but there is less definition and detail in the background.

 

Both are significantly better than LCDs like my old Mitsubishi HC5000 in terms of black level and black detail. That said, the new LCDs (like the new AE2000) is supposed to have much better native contrast and black levels but I have not seen it in action yet.

 

 

[tsammyc]

Generally, I would think that the HD100 would be better if you watch dark movies e.g., Underworld in a pitch black room i.e., if someone was sitting next to you with the projector off, you wouldn't be able to see them. As Doggie says, this solution brings out the shadow details. The Marantz would be better for a mixture of sources e.g., Movies, TV shows on DVD, live TV etc. and if you don't have perfect light control.

 

As the pooch says, higher ANSI contrast gives you more punch to the picture. The ultimate ANSI contrast in in LCDs where if you watch 40"+ LCDs in a dark room, you need sunglasses because the super high ANSI contrasts hurts your eyes. But then, on dark movies, LCDs look grey.

 

1080p DLPs like the Marantz or my Optoma HD80 have high (but not super high) on/off contrast and high ANSI contrast (but not as high as LCD) so they represent the middle road.

[pcie]

if u have a totally dedicated room, like all walls and one door to go in, shld get JVC.. if ur room has some light, from some windows or kitchen, then the Marantz will be better... am i correct to say that?  :-\

[Jason Yeo]

My small pigeon hole is pitch black and I still prefer dlp to Lcos . I prefer the digital look of dlp to film-like look from Lcos . The Marantz 15S1 has 3 iris settings and economy lamp mode to dim the light output.

 

By the way , every projector still gain from light controlled room(least reflection of light from walls and ceiling like sound).

 

Either projector is also great and value for money but neither is perfect. Just choose your poison .  ;D

[c7221624705751]

Diff of ANSI and On/Off CR, simply:

ANSI CR shows how gd it can display dark AND bright objects together. (It means how gd it can hold the black levels when there are white objects present in the image)

On/Off CR shows how gd it can display dark OR bright object, either one. (It means how low it can go when the image is 100% black and how bright it can go when it's 100% white.)

 

Both are important. (IMO the ANSI is more important, as that's the true capability of a display) DLP has high On/Off, high ANSI (thus the punchy look), LCoS has very high On/Off, low ANSI (thus the flat look).

(and LCD PJs have both low On/Off and low ANSI)

 

Btw traditionally LCoS has very low On/Off too (ard 500). The JVC way of boosting CR using a digital driving back pane has its own problems. ("magnifying" of image noise mainly)

 

With high On/Off CR, for night sky scenes u see pitch black.  Low On/Off u see a sky that's more gray than black.  Now put some stars in it.  Gd ANSI will show the stars shining. Low ANSI cannot show the "shining" of a star, it has to either raise the black level of the sky or reduce the bright level of the star. In either case the star loses its perceived contrast.

 

For this two, I think the JVC ought to be cheaper.  It's almost the exact item of HD1, the added CR is through a driving process not panel improvement.  In addition, the CR diff of 15k->30k is completely useless if you do not have a perfect room.  So if you are considering HD100, you may as well hunt for the HD1, much more value for money (especially now they sell for a far more reasonable price).

 

[Doggie Howser]

Diff of ANSI and On/Off CR, simply:

ANSI CR shows how gd it can display dark AND bright objects together. (It means how gd it can hold the black levels when there are white objects present in the image)

On/Off CR shows how gd it can display dark OR bright object, either one. (It means how low it can go when the image is 100% black and how bright it can go when it's 100% white.)

 

That is the definition of native vs dynamic contrast but I am pretty sure JVC does not use "dynamic" on/off contrast in their measurements.

http://www.jvc.be/site/be_nl/dla-hd1/glossary.html

 

 

But from what I gathered in AVS, in ANSI contrast measurements, the grid pattern favors the DLP implementation (higher APL), whereas the DILA would be better in lower APL scenes.

 

Anyway agree with c722, if you aren't looking for motorized lens (HD1 is manual) and using anamorphic lens setup, the HD1 is much better value

 

[zermat]

Diff of ANSI and On/Off CR, simply:

ANSI CR shows how gd it can display dark AND bright objects together. (It means how gd it can hold the black levels when there are white objects present in the image)

On/Off CR shows how gd it can display dark OR bright object, either one. (It means how low it can go when the image is 100% black and how bright it can go when it's 100% white.)

 

Both are important. (IMO the ANSI is more important, as that's the true capability of a display) DLP has high On/Off, high ANSI (thus the punchy look), LCoS has very high On/Off, low ANSI (thus the flat look).

(and LCD PJs have both low On/Off and low ANSI)

 

Btw traditionally LCoS has very low On/Off too (ard 500). The JVC way of boosting CR using a digital driving back pane has its own problems. ("magnifying" of image noise mainly)

 

With high On/Off CR, for night sky scenes u see pitch black.  Low On/Off u see a sky that's more gray than black.  Now put some stars in it.  Gd ANSI will show the stars shining. Low ANSI cannot show the "shining" of a star, it has to either raise the black level of the sky or reduce the bright level of the star. In either case the star loses its perceived contrast.

 

For this two, I think the JVC ought to be cheaper.  It's almost the exact item of HD1, the added CR is through a driving process not panel improvement.  In addition, the CR diff of 15k->30k is completely useless if you do not have a perfect room.  So if you are considering HD100, you may as well hunt for the HD1, much more value for money (especially now they sell for a far more reasonable price).

 

 

c722, thanks for the clarification. very clear and precise. 

It seems that the selling point for projectors nowadays is only Contrast Ratio with manufacturers trying to outbeat one another with higher and higher numbers.  We have to really understand what on earth they are talking about.

[TubeBoy]

I have a much better understanding now on ANSI vs native contrast!  Thanks to all the HT Si fus here!  ;D

 

Has the price gone down yet for the Marantz?

[zermat]

Just get to know that JVC has coined another new term.  "Panel Contrast" -  40,000 : 1

For DLP,  I should think the Panel Contrast would be close to Infinity : 1 as no light ever gets through the panel mirrors at all.  ???

[Doggie Howser]

Just get to know that JVC has coined another new term.  "Panel Contrast" -  40,000 : 1

For DLP,  I should think the Panel Contrast would be close to Infinity : 1 as no light ever gets through the panel mirrors at all.  ???

 

DILA are also "mirror" type devices.

 

 

[zermat]

That is the definition of native vs dynamic contrast but I am pretty sure JVC does not use "dynamic" on/off contrast in their measurements.

http://www.jvc.be/site/be_nl/dla-hd1/glossary.html

 

 

 

"Dynamic" on/off refers to projectors using auto-irises that close and open according to image brightness levels eg. Sony, Epson...  In JVC's case, there is no "Dynamic" on/off contrast as JVC does not make use of auto-iris to help raise their contrast ratio. That is the reason JVC coined the new term  (hereto unheard of)  "Native" Contrast to try to differentiate itself.  

[whowillbe]

Just get to know that JVC has coined another new term.  "Panel Contrast" -  40,000 : 1

For DLP,  I should think the Panel Contrast would be close to Infinity : 1 as no light ever gets through the panel mirrors at all.  ???

 

Light is reflected off the mirror (isn't that's what a mirror is for???) and pass through a color wheel (for single chip).

[zermat]

DILA are also "mirror" type devices.

 

 

Not exactly similar.  Light still has to pass through the liquid DILA panels before striking the mirrors. 

DLP is purely a mirror device.

[zermat]

Light is reflected off the mirror (isn't that's what a mirror is for???) and pass through a color wheel (for single chip).

 

What I said was light does not get through the mirrors in DLP.  Of course, mirrors are used to reflect light.  :)

[pcie]

then the price of a HD1 and HD100 is how much ar?

[Guest jonlee]

HD1 used to be S$9999 before the HD100 was released.  The HD100 is now selling at S$10999.  Not sure how much is Sammy selling the HD1 now.

 

then the price of a HD1 and HD100 is how much ar?

[tsammyc]

Just to clarify that when I mentioned that LCDs have high ANSI contrast, I meant LCD panels and LCD TVs, not LCD projectors. I say this because c722 said (correctly) that LCD projectors have low ANSI contrast.

 

In fact, measurements on the latest LCDs, e.g., Sony X-Series LCD show ANSI contrast of between 1000:1 and 2000:1, which is why in a dark room you have to wear sunglasses to watch TV or suffer severe eye pain. This is double the ANSI contrast of a DLP projector (my HD80 has a 500:1 ANSI contrast). My Sony SXRD rear projection TV has a 300:1 ANSI contrast. I thought the SXRD was punchy when I bought it, but it seems strangely unsatisfactory now after watching the HD80 :(

 

One other thing. If there is 1 lumens in the room i.e., light from one candle, you won't be able to see on/off contrast greater than 500:1

[tsammyc]

BTW here's a discussion and some explanations by our guru Jag in 2004

 

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=28672.0

[Bono1624705732]

HD1 used to be S$9999 before the HD100 was released.  The HD100 is now selling at S$10999.  Not sure how much is Sammy selling the HD1 now.

 

 

last heard the HD1 is going for $8.5k i think...

[Doggie Howser]

BTW here's a discussion and some explanations by our guru Jag in 2004

 

http://www.xtremeplace.com/yabbse/index.php?topic=28672.0

 

Yes I remember that, but the "definition" of ANSI contrast requires a pretty high APL (ie relatively bright scene).

 

4x4 checkboard test pattern and measuring the average light levels of the 8 white squares

 

The design of DLPs provide good ANSI contrast levels.

 

While the LCOS has lower ANSI levels (from the definition used), in lower APL scenes (dimly lit), the measured/perceived contrast is higher.

 

 

[HardCORE]

DILA are also "mirror" type devices.

Close but not exactly. DILA is actually a very impressive technology. The way it works is described in its name "Digital Direct Drive Image Light Amplifier".

 

The projector "amplifies" an image. That image can be created by a multitude of technologies, including but not limited to an LCD panel. In fact, the earliest and most highest end DILA projectors actually used a CRT to create the image, and then the ILA technology to project it. These projectors were used only in digital theaters and cost hundreds of thousands of dollars. You can image the image quality of CRT combined with the brightness of a "normal" projector.

 

The current consumer DILA models all seem to use LCD panels to create the image only.

 

Unlike conventional LCD projectors, the LCD isnt used to "block" the light. Similar to DLPs, the light is "reflected" off the image (but how exactly, I cannot remember... there doesn't seem to be any good documentation out there nowadays). A simple description is below:

 

http://www.jvc.com/Presentations/HDILA/drawbacks.html

 

I've always thought that DILA is the superior technology, and its sad that it has pretty much "lost out" to DLP (especially in commercial digital theaters) because JVC simply wasnt good at marketing it.

[zermat]

Unlike conventional LCD projectors, the LCD isnt used to "block" the light. Similar to DLPs, the light is "reflected" off the image (but how exactly, I cannot remember... there doesn't seem to be any good documentation out there nowadays).

 

Despite all the technicalities, DILA is still basically a Liquid Crystal Device (LCD) at its heart.

 

A "Liquid Crystal Layer" is still being used to modulate (block and unblock with varying degree of intensity) the light coming through and reflected back through it. What's different is that the switching matrix and electronics are placed behind the Liquid Crystal Layer instead of on the sides.  This has made it possible for DILA to move the pixels closer to one another to achieve a high 93% fill factor which minimises the Screen Door effect. The light amplification, I believe, is done using (as they call them) reflecting electrodes (not simple mirrors) with high reflective gain factor, very much like us using a high-gain projection screen to reflect a brighter image.